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Post by hugostiglitz on Jan 26, 2019 8:35:03 GMT -6
Hello fellas,
first off, I am after that API sound! I just love it.. Mainly I am doing electronic music such as techno and house music. I know that API works well for rock-music and the likes but it works like a charm for electronic stuff too.. I've heard it ;-)
Well, apperently I cannot afford any API desk at this point (The Box, 1604..etc) So I was thinking how can I archive the API sound without having one of their consoles. My first thought was getting an API summing box.. the 8200! But then I had second thoughts and found that somehow it might be more efficient to get a proper API front-end over the back-end (summing)?
So at this point I am thinking to get a few Capi vp28 followed by some of their EQs.. so that whatever I record it will already be recorded with that sound.
Since I am only recording synthesizers and drummachines, does that make any sense to track thru CAPI preamps? Will it have a lot of impact on the sound? I also hope that my mixing work get easier thru that. Tighter and clearer lowend, tidier mids..etc.
What's your view on that and should I go that route or forget it and go the summing-mixer way?
thank you
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Post by stormymondays on Jan 26, 2019 9:49:09 GMT -6
Have you looked into Console 1? I think it would serve you as well as hardware in your case.
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Post by Ward on Jan 26, 2019 10:12:10 GMT -6
Talk to Brad from Louder than Lift-off too.
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Post by stormymondays on Jan 26, 2019 10:23:03 GMT -6
Talk to Brad from Louder than Lift-off too. My pair of Chromas is stellar.
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Post by drbill on Jan 26, 2019 10:27:58 GMT -6
A Louder Than Liftoff Silver Bullet (used on your mix bus and also for tracking) or a pair of LTL Chroma's eventually followed by a pair of LTL Mr Focus modules. Both are powerful options, and both will get you where you want to be - no summing necessary.
The CAPI modules are good too.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 26, 2019 10:39:29 GMT -6
A pair of vp28s to track through and then use them again as inserts on your master bus will get you farther than summing imho. The new plantinum series with DI’s might be really useful for synths and drum machines etc.
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Post by nudwig on Jan 26, 2019 12:45:10 GMT -6
I also vote for Louder Than Liftoff. Both the Silver Bullet and Mass Driver Stage 2 have more mojo than when I run things through my API 8200a. Besides having more applications they're also quicker and easier to dial in, less expensive as well.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 26, 2019 13:00:07 GMT -6
Get some vp28s to track into. Then a SumBus summing mixer of the size you want. Use ML2 modules to run things into the sumbus. Then use a silver bullet for the makeup gain on the sumbus and final tweaks of tone.
Basically a mostly diy API console at that point. That's my plan. Slowly but surely.
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Post by hugostiglitz on Jan 26, 2019 13:04:44 GMT -6
Thanks for your replies.. The whole Louder Than Liftoff product range is indeed highly interesting. But still I don't know if that will serve me well and fit the bill. As I said earlier, I am after that API sound.. not just any random color! At this point I am doubtful if LTL will get me there?! :/
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 26, 2019 13:14:06 GMT -6
I wouldn't be. Brad's rogue5 opamp is killer. Better than some others imo and the most affordable
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 26, 2019 13:27:17 GMT -6
In my humble opinion.. the API sound is a 2520 BTA input for line level, 2622 transformer or the newer Jensen 115k for mic level, 2520 amps, and 2503 outputs.
2520 means fairly low slew rate (3-5 V/uS), somewhat high distortion - especially by modern standards. And 2503 means steel core, low inductance so the THD band extends well into the midrange. That’s where the punch comes from.
If you consider that on a console from tape return to 2bus out with the EQ in youd go through 7 or so op amps and maybe 4 output transformers, a lot of the sound is in the stack up.
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Post by drbill on Jan 26, 2019 14:07:52 GMT -6
As I said earlier, I am after that API sound.. not just any random color! At this point I am doubtful if LTL will get me there?! :/ The API circuitry in either the Silver Bullet or Chroma's is absolutely the best (by quite aways IMO) API circuitry I've found. Especially on the mix buss. I can't get the 3D aspect that the Silver Bullet API side brings with any of my other API gear - API 512B's, CAPI VP26/VC528's, CAPI VP28's. And don't get me wrong, I love all of those, and they each have a variation of the API colour, but the width and 3D dimension that we designed into the SB is far better for my mix applications than the others. I'll be the first to admit I'm freakin biased, but it seems there are others here who happen to agree.
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Post by drbill on Jan 26, 2019 14:11:00 GMT -6
"If you consider that on a console from tape return to 2bus out with the EQ in youd go through 7 or so op amps and maybe 4 output transformers, a lot of the sound is in the stack up."YES!!! And that's a lot of the reasoning behind the Silver Bullet's particular workflow that Brad and I deliberately designed into it. I'm a huge proponent of getting all those discrete op amps and transformers into the audio's signal flow. Something that going thru one pass of a mic pre doesn't give you. Cheers!!
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Post by mikec on Jan 26, 2019 17:14:13 GMT -6
There is always the new 8 preamp version of the API "The Box".
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 26, 2019 17:21:53 GMT -6
There is always the new 8 preamp version of the API "The Box". At $16k msrp that thing is a monster. And a great value.
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Post by mikec on Jan 26, 2019 17:30:27 GMT -6
There is always the new 8 preamp version of the API "The Box". At $16k msrp that thing is a monster. And a great value. I'm looking at everything I am willing to sell to see if I can make one happen.
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Post by hugostiglitz on Jan 27, 2019 7:48:22 GMT -6
the Louder Than Liftoff stuff look indeed very decent.. and hell it's AFFORDABLE! thanks for the heads-up
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Post by Guitar on Jan 27, 2019 12:07:53 GMT -6
I think the Mr Focus modules look hard to beat, or you could do Chromas.
I also think running through a couple of CAPI preamps is a great idea. Both for tracking, and again on the mix bus. (I wouldn't bother with a summing mixer.) Just use a line to pre style of pad.
I've been sort of doing this for a long time with a customized pair of VP312. They are my #1 most used piece of tracking gear, absolutely indispensable.
I may or may not add some VP28 in February, when my new lunchbox is set up. But I'd like to. It's just funny how quickly mind mind can change directions in 1 weeks time.
In the box, I would recommend the UAD API EQ's, and the Waves 2500 compressor. I'm a "big fan" of both.
This is how I get my API sound. Mainly, it's the preamps.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 27, 2019 16:22:58 GMT -6
I was a big doubter / scoffer at the impact of summing until I built a summing mixer. It really depends on what you’re summing and how, but the effect on transients and, again, distortion stack up, makes summing a key part of a console’s sound. Multiple transients hitting the same amp at the same time with all the imperfections there (limited slew rate and frequency response and distortion) are definitely different than the result of summing in the digital realm.
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Post by hugostiglitz on Jan 27, 2019 16:41:45 GMT -6
I was a big doubter / scoffer at the impact of summing until I built a summing mixer. It really depends on what you’re summing and how, but the effect on transients and, again, distortion stack up, makes summing a key part of a console’s sound. Multiple transients hitting the same amp at the same time with all the imperfections there (limited slew rate and frequency response and distortion) are definitely different than the result of summing in the digital realm. I still am a big doubter when it comes to analog summing. I have heard demos of some even colorful summing mixers A/B (digital vs analog) and never heard a difference
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 27, 2019 20:58:28 GMT -6
Then i suppose no single piece of gear is going to get you the sound you’re after. At a minimum a colorful mixer is going to color the sound just going through it like a line amp, summing exluded. So either they weren’t very colorful or it wasn’t a very good test
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Post by drew571 on Jan 27, 2019 22:11:45 GMT -6
I just put a bunch of vp26's in the classifieds if you decide to go that way. 😁
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Post by svart on Jan 27, 2019 22:27:15 GMT -6
Any API(or clone) preamps with output attenuators. Drive the preamps hard and turn the attenuation up some and you'll get API sound for days.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 28, 2019 7:04:27 GMT -6
I was a big doubter / scoffer at the impact of summing until I built a summing mixer. It really depends on what you’re summing and how, but the effect on transients and, again, distortion stack up, makes summing a key part of a console’s sound. Multiple transients hitting the same amp at the same time with all the imperfections there (limited slew rate and frequency response and distortion) are definitely different than the result of summing in the digital realm. I still am a big doubter when it comes to analog summing. I have heard demos of some even colorful summing mixers A/B (digital vs analog) and never heard a difference I built one too. I can hear the difference, I'm just not sure if it's a difference that matters, for me. The big killer is the workflow. I would need to find a much better Cubase setup if I were going to be using a summing mixer on a regular basis. You can get "half way there" just buy running two line amps on your mix bus.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 28, 2019 9:29:45 GMT -6
Yes, I think that's true. There's summing and then there's "effects reamping" and I think sometimes people almost use them interchangeably. But, even really cleam summing changes how transients come through. The A/B thing is difficult though, because it's like a 2bus compressor... you have to mix into it to really get a feel for what it can do. Taking the exact same mix and doing an A/B for digital vs analog summing may not show you what the analog can do. Your mix may sound better digital, or no big difference. Mix into it, maybe you can get a huge difference.
I think to really leverage it you need conversion channels and a patchbay. It's like anything else.. if you are going to go hybrid, doing one or two tracks isn't going to really yield big changes.
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