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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 5, 2019 17:56:22 GMT -6
I am actually like Martin, I think I prefer the soyuz, but not in my budget right now. I note to those I know who wanted the 84 so badly but eventually sell them ? But Soyuz doesn't call theirs an "84". That's true John. The Soyuz 0-11 and 0-13 are not clones. They're just very high quality SDC's, that are competitive sonically. They do much of what the 84 does, and that's the mic manufacturers use as a benchmark. The Soyuz actually has much more gain, and is a little more extended, but it too just sits in a mix. I like what Soyuz did in design, the LDC's are in the U67 family, but have their own sound, and the 0-13 is in the 84 zone, but definitely a bit different.
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Post by ragan on Feb 6, 2019 2:08:38 GMT -6
Are you under the impression that typed text somehow changes meaning when it’s tyoed on GS? When it's on GS i just make sure I've got my salt shaker handy, is all. A good practice to be in the habit of, no doubt.
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Post by ragan on Feb 6, 2019 2:21:13 GMT -6
If the products aren't good, you're not going to be around very long. MXL? Good point. I should have qualified it with "Unless you're intentionally occupying the absolute bargain basement bottom of the market..." There will always be an appetite for super cheap gear, and the illusions that come with it. I would argue that companies like Warm and Stam occupy a different niche. It's budget friendly compared to the high end stuff, big time, but it's not nothing. An opto limiter that sells for ~$900 is still a chunk of money. It's not the comical $3800 or whatever UA charges for their clone but it's not nothing. When you strip away high end paintjobs and metalwork and jacks and switches and the huge prestige markup, there's still some room for quality parts (hence the Kenetek, Cinemag, Sowter, etc stuff in the Warm and Stam) in that $900. But your customers ain't coming back if they get shipped a $900 dud. I think these guys occupy a slice of the market where the price allows for a solid piece of gear that's way below the glamorous, truly boutique stuff but where the customer still has skin in the game and expects a good result. I guess that's what I meant. The theory doesn't really work when you're buying an LDC/SDC set from MXL for $89.99. No one's really that surprised or pissed if those mics suck.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 6, 2019 4:40:42 GMT -6
A valid point. I tend to think very few, maybe 5-10% of those who will buy the $8-900 box will ever buy the $3,000 + one.
The original and niches boutique market exists and if you have the dough and ears, great.
But many others are looking for lower price point value and I think Warm, Stam etc. can’t keep product on their shelves.
I looked at an original 84 recently, around a grand, in Europe, so needs shipping and who knows if it worked perfectly and or would need some maintenance?
Or for well under a grand I can get a stereo matched pair of wa-84s. I have no illusions that they will sound exactly like a real good 84, but if the 84 magic is in its off axis response: given my room gremlins I will likely use them much more directionally anyway and just want accurate transients, balanced tone and presence and I’ll be satisfied.
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Post by Ward on Feb 6, 2019 8:15:37 GMT -6
SNIP ... But Soyuz doesn't call theirs an "84". And that's the best point yet!! Neither does Beyerdynamic call their MC930 an 84, even though it sounds like a more open and extended version of a KM84. Clearly both the Soyuz and Beyer SDCs are fallen from the same family tree from whence came the KM84, and certain Neumann-Gefell offerings even more so, but no one copies the number because it would be disingenuous to do so!!
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Post by ericn on Feb 6, 2019 9:36:33 GMT -6
SNIP ... But Soyuz doesn't call theirs an "84". And that's the best point yet!! Neither does Beyerdynamic call their MC930 an 84, even though it sounds like a more open and extended version of a KM84. Clearly both the Soyuz and Beyer SDCs are fallen from the same family tree from whence came the KM84, and certain Neumann-Gefell offerings even more so, but no one copies the number because it would be disingenuous to do so!! While it is well known that in the old days there was a lot of knowledge shared between Neumann and Beyer, I think what Soyuz and Beyer both show is that good engineering and design will get you farther than just copying.
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Post by jakeharris on Feb 8, 2019 22:02:23 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 9, 2019 3:08:20 GMT -6
No. But they sure try to sell it as one.
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 9, 2019 7:57:36 GMT -6
No. But they sure try to sell it as one. I exchanged an email with Warm, and they claim the circuit is identical to the 414eb. I did not look at it myself. So I guess it leads to only capsule and transformer changes to make it really close to a 414eb ? Maybe undistinguishable with a Tim Campbell or OPR capsule, even ?
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 9, 2019 8:25:10 GMT -6
They largely replicate caps but look for manufacturing efficiency? if it’s got Cinemag transformers bet they are very authentic is well but it is cloned ?
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 9, 2019 11:18:22 GMT -6
No. But they sure try to sell it as one. I exchanged an email with Warm, and they claim the circuit is identical to the 414eb. I did not look at it myself. So I guess it leads to only capsule and transformer changes to make it really close to a 414eb ? Maybe undistinguishable with a Tim Campbell or OPR capsule, even ? Well, it's not absolutely identical cause it's only got 3 patterns.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 9, 2019 14:05:58 GMT -6
I exchanged an email with Warm, and they claim the circuit is identical to the 414eb. I did not look at it myself. So I guess it leads to only capsule and transformer changes to make it really close to a 414eb ? Maybe undistinguishable with a Tim Campbell or OPR capsule, even ? Well, it's not absolutely identical cause it's only got 3 patterns. The Capsule is an all brass CEK12 just like what's in the Peluso, since John Peluso actually designed the CEK12. It's also found in the Advanced Audio mics. It is not a replica of the CK12. That information can only be found in their manual. It is advertised as though they are using a real CK12. They are not. Feel free to go to their site and check the manual out.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 9, 2019 14:22:22 GMT -6
When you say it is advertised, which company are you referring to ?
I thought Warm was reasonably clear that it’s cap is modelled after the original c-12 but not exactly the same in manufacture and parts but close.
There’s are very good reasons why Tim’s c-12 cap cost what it does and I believe that is close to +40% of the cost of the entire Warm mike.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 9, 2019 15:21:28 GMT -6
Well, it's not absolutely identical cause it's only got 3 patterns. The Capsule is an all brass CEK12 just like what's in the Peluso, since John Peluso actually designed the CEK12. It's also found in the Advanced Audio mics. It is not a replica of the CK12. That information can only be found in their manual. It is advertised as though they are using a real CK12. They are not. Feel free to go to their site and check the manual out. From the manual:
So far they've said that twice and I haven't even finished reading the manual. The website, howerver, admits it's a modified CEK.
From the Technical Specs on pg 9:
That makes three.
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 9, 2019 16:33:49 GMT -6
Ok. I knew I found it somewhere that they admitted it was a CEK12, but everywhere else it was stated to be a CK12.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 9, 2019 16:49:36 GMT -6
Well I’m glad we sorted that out as I never realized the 84 had original c12 caps: who knew ?
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Post by jakeharris on Feb 9, 2019 21:53:37 GMT -6
Well I’m glad we sorted that out as I never realized the 84 had original c12 caps: who knew ? Who knew conversations could go places. OT, on a tight budget I'd buy the 3U for $100 less. Paying more for the same thing doesn't make sense to me. If I did have $400 to spend, I'd wait a month or two and buy the $600 Soyuz instead. $399 just doesn't do it for me.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 9, 2019 23:15:25 GMT -6
It’s all good information and my comment was just meant in jest. I have Campbell c12 cap in my diy c-12, makes me curious about sticking it in the Warm ?
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 9, 2019 23:58:12 GMT -6
Well I’m glad we sorted that out as I never realized the 84 had original c12 caps: who knew ? It’s more about the false advertising.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 10, 2019 1:07:22 GMT -6
I am wondering why someone would think they are getting a “real” c12 cap unless it was taken out of a real authentic Neumann or AKG mike?
As far as I know, Tim make’s arguably the most authentic recreation of the original cap and then we have varying degrees of quality of reproduction of c12 caps from other parties, but technically one could say none of these are originals.
So, I understood the Warm to have a cap in the c12 typology meaning a derivation of the original c12 made to a less expensive price point.
I guess I don’t get the ‘false’ thing as unless you take a c12 cap out of an original mike no one has a real c12 ?
Anyway, perhaps we can spin this out on a new thread and get back to discussing 84s?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 10, 2019 7:33:01 GMT -6
I am wondering why someone would think they are getting a “real” c12 cap unless it was taken out of a real authentic Neumann or AKG mike? As far as I know, Tim make’s arguably the most authentic recreation of the original cap and then we have varying degrees of quality of reproduction of c12 caps from other parties, but technically one could say none of these are originals. So, I understood the Warm to have a cap in the c12 typology meaning a derivation of the original c12 made to a less expensive price point. I guess I don’t get the ‘false’ thing as unless you take a c12 cap out of an original mike no one has a real c12 ? Anyway, perhaps we can spin this out on a new thread and get back to discussing 84s? My understanding is that Tim makes a CK12 (reproduction of the original). Warm/Peluso/etc use a CEK12, which isn't built in the same way, but has a similar sound profile.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 10, 2019 8:33:21 GMT -6
Mine as well.
I know I have read that the WA cap does not try to replicate all the elements of the actual c12 cap, as it does not lend itself to mass or larger production runs ? On the other hand it is real brass and has the dual plate structure not plastic?
Maybe I misunderstood the marketing speak but I always understood this was what Warm was saying: real brass not plastic so like the real C12? I never understood them to be saying they have a real c12 cap in a mike made to that low price point ?
Enter Tim, as if you want an original reproduction, that is what he painstakingly does and that is why his cap, very legitimately warrants its price point.
To me, this is the real point of the clone wars: having options ?
Depending on your preferences and pocket book we can all choose to buy what we value at the price point we want?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 9:06:05 GMT -6
Interesting for sure, but if it's really just a 3U Audio Warbler 127 C-Flat with a different body and tranny, I don't think it's gonna be a serious challenge to a well maintained KM-84. Just my two cents.
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 10, 2019 9:40:16 GMT -6
I just want decent transient capture and balanced tone and not the real 84 price tag .
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Post by M57 on Feb 10, 2019 10:33:04 GMT -6
Interesting for sure, but if it's really just a 3U Audio Warbler 127 C-Flat with a different body and tranny, I don't think it's gonna be a serious challenge to a well maintained KM-84. Just my two cents. Hard to imagine it could be considering you can buy the Warm for less than 1/4th the price of a used KM-84. What's a well-maintained pair of KM-84's going for these days? ..$3500 (if you can even find them). Name aside, I want to know if the WA-84 beats its 'realistic' competition. For starters, I'll bet most everything in its price point is transformerless. So the real competition will be mics like the Soyuz su-013, which btw costs 60% more. What are the Warbler 127's going for these days?
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