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Post by Guitar on Feb 13, 2019 12:45:18 GMT -6
Can someone explain to me what warping when approaching nyquist means? And while you are at it.....what exactly is this noise floor you speak of in a digital plugin? Nyquist is half of your sample rate, so at 48 kHz recording it would be 24,000 Hz. At 44.1 it would be a little more than 20 kHz, and so on. This is the highest audible frequency in your audio file. If you had an EQ that went above the nyquist cutoff, you would get some aliasing artifacts back down into your audio. You could read about the Nyquist Theorem if you want to "get into it." more basic EQ like the ReaEQ simply bunch the curves up to fit into the space. Squeezing the high end of the bell into a tighter range. The Fab Filter instead keeps a symmetric curve on both sides and drastically reaches zero on the high side within the span of a few dozen Hz right at the limit , yeah watch the video, you'll see it.
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 13, 2019 13:20:26 GMT -6
Can someone explain to me what warping when approaching nyquist means? Easier to see it: As you increase the frequency the slope "bunches" up high. I just watched this entire video and did not learn anything? Did I miss something? Or watch the wrong video? It was just some British guy comparing the curves of 2 digital eqs. Can you explain what makes one better than the other in a technical manner. Are you trying to say that the MDW designers did not know what Nquist is and their plugins introduces aliasing? I actually find the MDW to be pretty good for adding AIR
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 13, 2019 13:58:44 GMT -6
I’m not trying to say the Weiss or Equilibrium isn’t some better EQ for a mastering purpose that you have found.....but it’s not like the text books and theory for DSP is that much different from what it was in the year 2000. And I don’t understand what you are saying about the ‘warping’
Most of what is changed is the processing power which allows upsampling. This is the biggest advantage for plugins sounding better in the top end and more ‘open’
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 13, 2019 16:00:58 GMT -6
What I saw was the FF’s shelf continued past the readable graph. Massenburgs shaved and then dropped all the way to zero (looking like a bell at like 22Hz.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 13, 2019 16:30:41 GMT -6
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Post by Guitar on Feb 13, 2019 16:31:46 GMT -6
What's going on there? Is the StonEQ upsampling internally within the plugin?
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 13, 2019 16:54:39 GMT -6
What's going on there? Is the StonEQ upsampling internally within the plugin? Yeh how is it ‘violating’ nyquist without aliasing? Must be upsampled I guess. I couldn’t find the measurements for MDW plugin on UAD? Can someone point to those graphs? I searched the thread mentioned earlier but didn’t see it. MDW is upsampled, so I don’t see the fault with that plugin as someone previously mentioned. I remember when upsampling technique first started to come out and how much better plugins immediately got. Not that all still use it due to CPU, but yes I agree plugins with upsampling definitely sound better than ones without.
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 13, 2019 16:57:57 GMT -6
Remember Hydratone by Tritone Digital? Vintage upsampling EQ in ‘06
That sucker took my Pentium4 for all it was worth.
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 13, 2019 17:04:25 GMT -6
Those aren't my words or claims, but of someone who has one of the biggest post histories on various forums. His plugin doctor tests are in the link. There was also some talk in the gearslutz plugin analysis thread about Pro Q2 where Andy from Cytomic was talking about how they implemented some idea similar to something he had done in an eq but that their implementation via natural phase mode added all this latency. It was something dealing with this eq cramping problem when working at 44/48. That working at 88 or 92 would solve the problem better. I think the eq Andy designed was for Ableton or some DAW.
If anyone else gets a chance to try the Vertigo VSE-2, I'd be curious what you think. I'm finding it more and more impressive. The developer assured me it's got a unique sound signature despite what a youtube review said about it not bringing anything new to the table. I'm not aware of any other gyrator-based eq out there. While I don't work at 44/48, I'd be curious if this one has a lot of the same problems as other more traditional eqs. There's a lot of claims that gyrator-based stuff is a lot cleaner.
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 13, 2019 18:16:42 GMT -6
I’m not neccesarily questioning the expert in the video, just more so that pointing to a video of a guy talking about various curves of 2 eqs isn’t really enough for me....There isn’t much technical explanation of what’s going on there or why beside a couple of generalized sentences about how older plugins usually responded etc. I guess like to see a little more substance on the topic tbh. I would also think if talking about perfect curves, Linear Phase EQs would come into the conversation.... not much talk of the sound of those? But that plugin doctor tool looks pretty cool and awesome to see that you can do that so easily.
I’m going to stop blabbering now (until I know more on the topic, have to refresh my grad school days on DSP) but I guess it seems like digital eqs always have some limitations and whether means of upsampling or other creative ‘tricks’, I do agree they are getting better and better in general.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 13, 2019 18:33:59 GMT -6
One small point I am stuck on is that sound quality does not always correlate to perfect academic modeling quality. I love both realms but one does not supersede the other.
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 13, 2019 18:39:05 GMT -6
Ok I lied, one more idea/concept to through out there......(still remember something from grad school)
Its possible when designing an analog type filter such as a Neve 1073 or such....researching the circuit and coming up with an IIR filter type based on the component values probably would be the way to go. IIR filters use feedback taps and usually less complex in their structures. I would think upsampling would benefit in this instance getting more resolution in the higher frequencies when processing, then sampling back to the base frequency. Also that would create a low-latency plugin that still sounds good.
However maybe some of these 'cleaner/better' digital EQs are doing some tricks with FIR filters. FIR filter have many more taps, no feedback and generally aren't the most obvious for modeling analog EQs. However you can get some complex curves with FIR, without up sampling, but creating a complex structure with more taps and good resolution in the high end, but also more latency.
Just a guess, and someone more in tune with this feel free to weigh in.
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 13, 2019 18:39:45 GMT -6
One small point I am stuck on is that sound quality does not always correlate to perfect academic modeling quality. I love both realms but one does not supersede the other. Agreed!
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 14, 2019 1:09:39 GMT -6
The Soundtoys Sie Q I really like. You can put it on a snare before like a ssl eq and crank the shit out of the low and top, the mid at 1.7 gives a good thwack too. Then i just use the filters on the ssl plugin to tame it back. I use the T-Racks SSL E style on a ton of tracks, probably because I got started on that console and it's easy for me to dial in what i want, quickly. I love the Fab Pro Q on bass. Anytime I just need to HP or LP I use the stock digi one band plug. I honestly don't stray to far outside of that. The tracks I get already sound stellar, so I am really just cutting mostly or filtering, I find the SSL eq really good for this, plus even if you don't compress, just having it on instantly adds snap and punch to anything. Mixing today, you've got to have a lot of transients because of what they do in mastering. Find an eq that you're comfortable with and just use that, it's not as crazy and tedious as people make it out to be. A good buss eq is a must though, something with wide Q so you can quickly dial your mixes in to whatever they want you to reference, I like mixing darker and I'd much rather have one phase shift on the whole mix than 70 in the tracks.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 14, 2019 12:27:55 GMT -6
Not Jerome, but I spent a little while yesterday playing with different EQs on the master - UAD Chandler CB, UAD Massive Passive and the Plug-in Alliance MusEQ. I’ve been using the MusEQ for a while now. Ultimately liked it the most still.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 14, 2019 13:10:44 GMT -6
Great post! What EQ do you have on your Buss? Well, I use a pair of the DIYRE Pultecs with SL1731's, OPA1612's and EA 2503's in them, so....... Yeah But, If I were going to suggest something to someone I would suggest firstly, buy the Izotope Ozone 8 Advanced and do a reference EQ match, that would be my first suggestion because if there is a song you're chasing you just simply load it into Ozone and select the hottest part of that song, the hottest part of your song and let it do it's thing, it'll do a lot more than just a stereo eq, it'll do dynamic eq after the stereo eq so that you're not having to cut chunks out of your mix for parts that don't need it. Secondly, the EQ in Ozone is amazing! I mean basically no phase shift going on from my ears, I don't know if it goes into a non linear mode or if it compensates somehow for it, but I believe it pulls the off by doing mostly subtraction. Usually it will boost my low-end and tame my high end, then it uses the dynamic section for all the mid range stuff. With that being said, if you just wanted to get an EQ to strap across the buss to do high lifts or the fletcher munson thing, I would totally put the Soundtoys Sie Q there. You get Bass Middle and Treble. When you're EQ'n your buss those are really all you need. Think of it like the EQ in your car. What happens when you take a mix out to the car and listen and it doesn't have the high end you wanted, or low? You quickly shelve up either and you're like, "yeah there it is, that's what I want it to sound like." Well, if you go back in your session and start fiddling with all the tracks trying to do this it's either going to take you forever and cause a shitlaod of phase shifting, or it's not going to be as good as what your car did. What's the answer? The most simple and logical. A 3 band EQ that simulates what your car stereo does, big broad lifts, and it doesn't take much. You can experiment with the Fab Q, the Sie Q or the Massey 3 band one (which is a course eq, but it is extremely similar to the EQ's in cars." If you think of it like this I promise you your time spent on mixing will dramatically decrease. Just mix the song to how you like it, if you like mixing bright, so be it, same if you like mixing dark, after you're done pull a reference up and use your 3 band eq to get close to it and you're done. Send it out the door, because your client isn't going to be remarking about that, they're going to be remarking about how a vocal is to low at 2:14 or there's too much verb/not enough etc. etc. Demo the Ozone first, let it do it's thing with the master assistant and it'll be an instant buy. However, if you don't like it, just choose what ever coarse 3 band eq you can find and print that biotch!
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Post by soundintheround on Feb 14, 2019 13:38:24 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing. Been eyeing up those DIYRE Pultecs and wasn’t sure how they sounded. I gotta say his DIYRE DI Box with cinemag option (into my 1073 Neve Clone) sounds fantastic!
I agree that Curve Matching is a great tool. A lot of times almost instantly gives you a more balanced mix frequency-wise ... and at a minimum at least shows you the problem areas that you have and can go back and adjust.
Cubase comes with Voxengo Curve EQ which is also pretty good.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 14, 2019 15:33:59 GMT -6
The EP5s sound so good for their price everyone should have a pair. Super easy to build too.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 14, 2019 16:16:27 GMT -6
The EP5s sound so good for their price everyone should have a pair. Super easy to build too. Now that I have my Lindell rack I have some "DIY RE spaces" available and I'm pretty excited.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 14, 2019 16:24:40 GMT -6
The EP5s sound so good for their price everyone should have a pair. Super easy to build too. Now that I have my Lindell rack I have some "DIY RE spaces" available and I'm pretty excited. Do it. They are great. I have 4 plus 2 of the OLA5s
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Post by jamiesego on Feb 14, 2019 16:31:59 GMT -6
I'm also really in the Sie-Q lately. I use it on the mix buss all the time. I like the saturation for a lot of genres. Also use it on snare all the time. For filtering and cutting it's usually Pro-Q 3.
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Post by stormymondays on Feb 14, 2019 17:12:49 GMT -6
If I need a plugin EQ in the 2-buss to round off the mix or make it close to a reference I always go for the Hammer. Even if I have a hardware EQ on the 2-buss too! On my last mix I had the Retro 2A3 from the start but needed a little tweak in the mids once the mix was done. Hammer time!
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 14, 2019 20:31:35 GMT -6
Great post! What EQ do you have on your Buss? Well, I use a pair of the DIYRE Pultecs with SL1731's, OPA1612's and EA 2503's in them, so....... Yeah But, If I were going to suggest something to someone I would suggest firstly, buy the Izotope Ozone 8 Advanced and do a reference EQ match, that would be my first suggestion because if there is a song you're chasing you just simply load it into Ozone and select the hottest part of that song, the hottest part of your song and let it do it's thing, it'll do a lot more than just a stereo eq, it'll do dynamic eq after the stereo eq so that you're not having to cut chunks out of your mix for parts that don't need it. Secondly, the EQ in Ozone is amazing! I mean basically no phase shift going on from my ears, I don't know if it goes into a non linear mode or if it compensates somehow for it, but I believe it pulls the off by doing mostly subtraction. Usually it will boost my low-end and tame my high end, then it uses the dynamic section for all the mid range stuff. With that being said, if you just wanted to get an EQ to strap across the buss to do high lifts or the fletcher munson thing, I would totally put the Soundtoys Sie Q there. You get Bass Middle and Treble. When you're EQ'n your buss those are really all you need. Think of it like the EQ in your car. What happens when you take a mix out to the car and listen and it doesn't have the high end you wanted, or low? You quickly shelve up either and you're like, "yeah there it is, that's what I want it to sound like." Well, if you go back in your session and start fiddling with all the tracks trying to do this it's either going to take you forever and cause a shitlaod of phase shifting, or it's not going to be as good as what your car did. What's the answer? The most simple and logical. A 3 band EQ that simulates what your car stereo does, big broad lifts, and it doesn't take much. You can experiment with the Fab Q, the Sie Q or the Massey 3 band one (which is a course eq, but it is extremely similar to the EQ's in cars." If you think of it like this I promise you your time spent on mixing will dramatically decrease. Just mix the song to how you like it, if you like mixing bright, so be it, same if you like mixing dark, after you're done pull a reference up and use your 3 band eq to get close to it and you're done. Send it out the door, because your client isn't going to be remarking about that, they're going to be remarking about how a vocal is to low at 2:14 or there's too much verb/not enough etc. etc. Demo the Ozone first, let it do it's thing with the master assistant and it'll be an instant buy. However, if you don't like it, just choose what ever coarse 3 band eq you can find and print that biotch! Oh yeah. I do this too
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Post by viciousbliss on Feb 16, 2019 4:06:19 GMT -6
Just started using the Lindell TE-100 again and it's awesome with my current workflow. Removes the mud using the 60hz button and adds a lot of smoothness, body, and clarity. I'm using it in place of another tube saturation plugin. The guy who does the Lindell and LSR stuff is top notch. Use his DBX 902 plug a lot. One of these days I'll have to get his API 525. Something else I've started doing is disabling the BX SSL eq. On some material it boosts things I like, on other stuff it seems to add artifacts that I don't want. Still really impressed with that VSE-2.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 16, 2019 8:10:52 GMT -6
Utility = Reaeq Character = UAD 1073 mki
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