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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 4:28:53 GMT -6
Loving the sound I am getting from a single KM84 on the acoustic guitar, but having trouble getting anything really usable when using a pair of them for stereo. Been wondering about an M/S setup with the MK84 as the Mid mic and a decent ribbon as the Side. It would be cool to be able to "dial in" as much of the Side as needed, for full control over stereo width. Sound like a good idea? And if so, what ribbon would you suggest for this purpose? I have never used a ribbon mic before. Thinking of taking a punt on the new LRM-V from No Hype Audio for starters, has some good reports, supposed to have the "vintage" darker ribbon sound, and is pretty inexpensive, although I'd be happy to spend more if you think it would be worth it. Are there any "classic" ribbons as regards acoustic guitar? www.nohypeaudio.com/nhaproducts.htm |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 12, 2018 7:06:36 GMT -6
I honestly don’t think you’ll get a repeatably great thing out of a mix of SDC and ribbon. A lot of people say they like the blend but it’s also a big part of why others say they don’t like MS at all. I would look at reasonably matched SDC options. If you want a ribbon for S with an SDC you probably want a bright one that can sorta keep up with the KM84.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 12, 2018 7:56:56 GMT -6
Are there any "classic" ribbons as regards acoustic guitar? Totally a matter of taste, and different from the MS question. For most people, a ribbon as the on-axis sound will be darker than they want. The Samar are the only ribbons I have that don't need treble added for most acoustic guitars, if you are fine with a dark top rolled-off sound then there are lots of options. Really for an MS blend it probably makes more sense to have ribbon as M and SDC as side. I personally wouldn't do either after the experience I've had with Sennheiser MKH mics in MS, which has superior MS imaging to any I've tried before, with Samar ribbons or Beyerdynamic M130/M160 following closely, and the ribbon approach is usually for drums, the Sennheiser for acoustic instruments. One problematic aspect with ribbons for MS is the pattern being different for horizontal versus vertical. It can be fine, and it can be a problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 8:18:29 GMT -6
Thanks for all the thoughts EmRR! Dark is fine, I would prefer dark and add EQ high end, than have to cut shrill/spikey mic etc.
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Post by Ward on Dec 12, 2018 9:22:55 GMT -6
Thanks for all the thoughts EmRR! Dark is fine, I would prefer dark and add EQ high end, than have to cut shrill/spikey mic etc. A Samar VL37 ribbon works BRILLIANTLY with a KM84! It has even more top available than the KM84, and there's a lot less noise dialing down the top-end on a naturally bright mic than ramping it up on a naturally dark microphone. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 12, 2018 10:45:55 GMT -6
Yeah. VL37.
If you want dark, there’s the AEA R84
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Post by Ward on Dec 12, 2018 17:28:15 GMT -6
Yeah. VL37. If you want dark, there’s the AEA R84 Totally verifying this. I have both these ribbons and agree. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 23:51:35 GMT -6
Just reading the SOS review of the VL37, does sound amazing, although am more likely to go for a Coles or Sontronics at that end of the market, due to them being built closer. But yeah, the reviews on that thing sound amazing!
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Post by javamad on Dec 13, 2018 9:28:07 GMT -6
The Cascade Fatheads with Lundahl transformers are pretty sweet for the price. I got a stereo pair and so far they have done overheads, acoustic, rooms, vocals ... always great.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 11:57:46 GMT -6
Thanks for all the thoughts EmRR! Dark is fine, I would prefer dark and add EQ high end, than have to cut shrill/spikey mic etc. A Samar VL37 ribbon works BRILLIANTLY with a KM84! It has even more top available than the KM84, and there's a lot less noise dialing down the top-end on a naturally bright mic than ramping it up on a naturally dark microphone. I just used a VL37a as a side mic on string quartet. The mid was a Schoeps MK-21, but I've also used a KM140 (which is similar to an 84). It works very, very nicely. The Samar has a lot of HF extension compared to a 'traditional' ribbon and I think that will be very helpful with acoustic guitar. I'm glad you're considering giving M/S a go. It's a great technique that seems to scare some people away. Don't know why--any mic placement is situational and M/S fits a lot of situations. |
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Post by Ward on Dec 13, 2018 12:32:44 GMT -6
I can understand why M/S puts people off . . . there's a LOT of sucky M/S recordings out there and it's tendancy to give nothing when then stereo field collapses is part of it. But if the KM984 is the M, then even without the S's it'll sounds great!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 12:41:26 GMT -6
I can understand why M/S puts people off . . . there's a LOT of sucky M/S recordings out there and it's tendancy to give nothing when then stereo field collapses is part of it. But if the KM984 is the M, then even without the S's it'll sounds great! That's true, but pure X/Y technique has the same problem. I rarely use M/S as the only pair of mics. But in conjunction with spaced omnis you get an image that's very robust with some nice tuning of the central part of the soundstage. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 13:31:28 GMT -6
I'd just like to give it a go (M/S and a ribbon) as I have not tried either before! As I said, very happy with the KM84 in mono, so was imaging it would be cool to add in stereo width with a ribbon.
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Post by javamad on Dec 13, 2018 13:48:04 GMT -6
If you are up for experiments I once did a “Glyn Johns” on acoustic :-)
One LCD in cardiod in front of the guitar (about 3 feet away), matched pair mic above the shoulder of the player. Measured out to be equidistant from the bridge.
Sounded killer! :-)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 14:32:36 GMT -6
That sounds very cool, but my trouble is am limited to only a single dual channel preamp!
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 13, 2018 17:25:57 GMT -6
I’ve somehow never tried M/S. I think I heard it in school once and had no real idea of what was going on or why I’d want to deal with what seemed like a complicated setup (even though it’s not).
Anyway, while I was assisting for years, I never had any engineer come in and ask for an M/S setup. So I just sort of forgot about it and started stealing ideas from all of them.
I’m gonna give it a shot tomorrow if I can get the spare time
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 14, 2018 1:13:47 GMT -6
I get great Leslie cabinet sounds using M/S. SDC omni for M and ribbon for S.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2018 15:45:31 GMT -6
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Post by EmRR on Dec 16, 2018 20:53:47 GMT -6
I bet the BM9's are cool, Stewart has serviced a ton of ribbons over the years and seen the ins and outs of how this gets done. As opposed to the B9 Audio mics: b9audio.comI'll derail: Wanted to mention/show an experiment I ran the other night, ambient club recording of a client. Straus packet mid-side? The room is shallow and wide, and the speakers are wide and high. I kept the side info from the MKH30 down a bit, and I liked the MKH20 omni down a good bit from the MKH40 cardioid in the mid. The MKH40 didn't get as much direct information from the speakers because of the width, so the MKH20 helped fill in and being omni, had the best bass of the lot. I kinda thought I'd pick one or the other, but the blend was best and there are no obvious problems from the capsule distance. I've also got an MKH800 Twin which would sorta do the same thing as the MKH40 and MKH20 pair, but no pressure omni effect in the bass, and a much larger mounting footprint.  |
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Post by Ward on Dec 17, 2018 10:10:59 GMT -6
EmRR - looks like you're missing a pinky and a thumb.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 11:03:21 GMT -6
Where did you get the clips for the mics on top? I've only found one vendor who supports very dissimilar mic body diameters. What's in your illustration looks like just what I could use. |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 17, 2018 11:08:13 GMT -6
Those are the Rycote clips.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 12:46:25 GMT -6
I have the Rycote INV 6 & INV 7 (for SDCs) and Invision USM kit (for LDC) and they are great, never seen these cool multi-clips before though!
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Post by EmRR on Dec 17, 2018 12:59:45 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2018 13:26:47 GMT -6
Thank you! I actually use rycote suspension clips, but didn't know they made the little back-to-backs. I actually asked a Rycote rep about this at NAB and they didn't have any idea about it! |
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