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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 8:07:07 GMT -6
Any hints for old school tracking/overdubbing without headphones? I.e. you are listening to the rest of the track through the speakers and playing along, while recording. I'm recording at home alone. Of course you get bleed from the speakers, but what are the best ways to minimise this? Have heard of doing things like just having one speaker on and putting your mic with it's cardioid null in line with the speaker, or flipping the phase of the recording and mixing it with the rest of the track to get rid of the spill etc., does this work? I should try it...
I know it's probably just psychological, but I REALLY don't get along playing/recording with headphones on, feels constrictive, can't hear my instrument properly, affects my playing, and would much rather have them off and play along. Or do I just have to eat it up and get used to wearing cans or spill while recording?
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Post by svart on Nov 30, 2018 8:14:21 GMT -6
Figure 8 in a completely anechoic room. The back pickup will be 180deg out of phase so you can place the speaker behind and null it out if you nudge the track into alignment afterwards.. It works probably better than the rest, but you'll never get all the bleed out, especially the phasey reflections in a live room.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 8:27:58 GMT -6
Cheers, I have a figure 8 mic (AA CM48T has a fig 8 mode), but no anechoic room I'm afraid! It's treated a bit. I should do some experiments to hear how bad the bleed is... Not worried if there's a little bit of bleed, as long as it's what will end up on the final track it shouldn't be too noticeable.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 30, 2018 10:41:09 GMT -6
Just do it! practive mic placement and such. It'll be fine. Tony has NEVER used headphones. In fact the only way he records is live with two monitors infront of him with a live backing band(drums, bass, piano, guitar usually). Big band then overdubs that. And all that stuff sounds great! Cool article in SOS that has some funny stuff about doing it like that and how freaked out some people were at first by the method: www.soundonsound.com/people/dae-bennett-recording-tony-bennetts-one-my-baby-and-one-more-roadIt'll be good.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 11:00:20 GMT -6
Thanks for the encouragement, Blackdawg! I've been getting really discouraged because when I practice I'm great (well, good enough for recording), but when I actually get to recording, because I have to wear the cans it puts me in a totally different playing position and head space and is not conducive to feeling relaxed and getting a good take.
Thanks for the link, off to read now...
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Post by Ward on Nov 30, 2018 11:10:04 GMT -6
See here . . .
Two speakers, out of phase with each other, forming an 5' isosceles triangle with with the microphone (cardioid). Not perfect but works well enough.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 30, 2018 11:15:51 GMT -6
I tend to treat it like live monitors, with a Cardiod single speaker in the rear null, hyper or super card 2 speakers, but the mix is mono. Be ready to heavily EQ the monitor mix in any case your dealing with the peaks of speakers mics and room response so your going to find there will be problems.
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Post by popmann on Nov 30, 2018 12:36:43 GMT -6
When were talking vocals or sax....which will be nearish to the end of the room with the monitors, I turn one monitor off(and sum to mono if thats not obvious)....and aim the side of a fig8 at that. Cardiod is useles unless its a dynamic. So, an sm7 away will work....a u87 in card will not. If its guitar amps which are loud and likely other end of the room, I still use a fig 8 but i dont turn off a speaker or get really ODC about getting it 8n the null. The sound coming from that speaker is SO much louder than any bleed, its mostly irrelevant with sometimes one exception, which is the other tip:
Turn the bass guitar off, unless its fretless, thus REALLY important to the singer’s intonation. That will keep residual LF from being an issue.
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Post by adamjbrass on Nov 30, 2018 12:51:24 GMT -6
Figure-8 mics with a reversed polarity speaker seemed to work for the Beatles
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2018 13:36:29 GMT -6
Thanks for all the tips, I am just ecstatic that no one here is telling me "you have to use phones!" which is what I'm getting on social media and other forums. I knew I could rely on you guys! Lots to think about and try out.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 30, 2018 13:46:03 GMT -6
Thanks for all the tips, I am just ecstatic that no one here is telling me "you have to use phones!" which is what I'm getting on social media and other forums. I knew I could rely on you guys! Lots to think about and try out. Meh. They are all drinking the plugin youtube Koolaid BS. Im willing to bet anyone that says you can't has never really tried or been forced to try. Was done for YEARs. I mean Hell Frank Sinatra stood in the same damn room as the big band and sang in front of them. Didn't stop that stuff from sounding amazing.
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Post by notneeson on Nov 30, 2018 13:58:49 GMT -6
Turn the bass off it’s if fretless electric. And keep it off.
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Post by sirthought on Nov 30, 2018 15:48:06 GMT -6
Not to discourage you trying the tips discussed, but another option to try is Goodhertz CanOpener on your monitor cue mix. It makes your headphones sound like you're sitting in front of speaker monitors. You don't get the left/right side isolation.
A friend who is a mastering engineer turned me on to this product just recently and I think it could be useful to make things on headphones more natural.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 30, 2018 18:56:56 GMT -6
I tried everything under the sun. A cardioid facing away from full range speakers in a well treated room works about as well as anything. One pass with the singer in place but not singing gives you a file to mix in out of phase.
My first experiment was the lead, followed by backgrounds for Rare Earth's "I just want to Celebrate." I used a handheld Shure SM53 in the control room with the monitors pretty loud. It was the solution to the problem of an artist who wasn't very excited about the tune.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 30, 2018 22:19:01 GMT -6
Great thread-Thanks! Chris
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 2:39:23 GMT -6
Not to discourage you trying the tips discussed, but another option to try is Goodhertz CanOpener on your monitor cue mix. It makes your headphones sound like you're sitting in front of speaker monitors. You don't get the left/right side isolation. A friend who is a mastering engineer turned me on to this product just recently and I think it could be useful to make things on headphones more natural. Cheers, have tried something similar (can't run Goodhertz stuff as they are 64 bit only) with EQ and crossfeed but it still affects my playing very negatively.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 2:40:02 GMT -6
I tried everything under the sun. A cardioid facing away from full range speakers in a well treated room works about as well as anything. One pass with the singer in place but not singing gives you a file to mix in out of phase. My first experiment was the lead, followed by backgrounds for Rare Earth's "I just want to Celebrate." I used a handheld Shure SM53 in the control room with the monitors pretty loud. It was the solution to the problem of an artist who wasn't very excited about the tune. Thanks Bob, next recording session am just gonna go for it without the cans finally, am sure will feel very liberating!
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Post by Ward on Dec 1, 2018 13:53:38 GMT -6
Thanks for all the tips, I am just ecstatic that no one here is telling me "you have to use phones!" which is what I'm getting on social media and other forums. I knew I could rely on you guys! Lots to think about and try out. That's because we;re your peers, colleagues and people for whom this is a vocation, not a vacation. We're like the borg, everyone shares the brain. It's a big brain. It came out of Bob Freakin' Ohllson's head.
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Post by Bender on Dec 1, 2018 14:14:17 GMT -6
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but by going by the above methods of singing without the headphones, isn't it essential that the vocal is the last thing recorded? and more importantly that whatever is bleeding in the background go unchanged after the vocals, I.e. the takes/edit's/performance shouldn't be fiddled with as it can cause some bad phase problems and "phantom bleeding" of ghost tracks that maybe didn't make the cut etc?
I really wanna give a go at it as I always find the performances more natural and on key when going without the headphones.
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Post by notneeson on Dec 1, 2018 14:25:21 GMT -6
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but by going by the above methods of singing without the headphones, isn't it essential that the vocal is the last thing recorded? and more importantly that whatever is bleeding in the background go unchanged after the vocals, I.e. the takes/edit's/performance shouldn't be fiddled with as it can cause some bad phase problems and "phantom bleeding" of ghost tracks that maybe didn't make the cut etc?
I really wanna give a go at it as I always find the performances more natural and on key when going without the headphones.
In my personal experience, that’s not super critical. Where it can be dodgy is if you need to tune the vocals. Melodyne (old RTAS version) could really make the bleed sound bad, for instance.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 1, 2018 18:23:17 GMT -6
Forget tuning but the good news is that ordinary human beings simply sing in tune with what they are hearing. I honestly believe that headphones actually created the need for most tuning.
I did a demonstration at NAMM a few years ago where we had one of the very top session singers in the world perform with headphones and then without. Every jaw in the room hit the floor when she sang without the headphones. It was the difference between like a dream competent and "WOW!"
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Post by Ward on Dec 1, 2018 18:24:15 GMT -6
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but by going by the above methods of singing without the headphones, isn't it essential that the vocal is the last thing recorded? and more importantly that whatever is bleeding in the background go unchanged after the vocals, I.e. the takes/edit's/performance shouldn't be fiddled with as it can cause some bad phase problems and "phantom bleeding" of ghost tracks that maybe didn't make the cut etc? I really wanna give a go at it as I always find the performances more natural and on key when going without the headphones.
There is no exact method. There are a variety of ways of doing things. My method might be just like yours or totally different... What I find works... Guide vocal and single instrument. Then mock up an arrangement with midi parts and guitars, then record a new vocal to those, and build up the arrangement with a rhrythm section and maybe the rest of the 'band'. Then fix up and/or replace any tracks that seem laclustre (spelling for Lack Luster please?) ands add any and all overdubbed instruments.. . . Then record lead vocals, 4-6 tracks, and pick out all the best pieces and create a good comp vocal and fix any major tuning issues. And then add backing vocals. Amd Backing vocals are good with the same isosceles triangle speakers and microphone method as well!!
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 2, 2018 21:39:46 GMT -6
Figure 8 in a completely anechoic room. The back pickup will be 180deg out of phase so you can place the speaker behind and null it out if you nudge the track into alignment afterwards.. It works probably better than the rest, but you'll never get all the bleed out, especially the phasey reflections in a live room. Er, no.
A completely anechoic room is not a natural listening environment (it bugs the HELL out of most people.)
Set up a reasonable distance from the monitors and don't turn them up any louder than necessary. Just loud enough to cue off of seems about right to me.
A little bleed is OK as long as you don't indulge in funny sounding tricks that might make it sound not OK. Bleed should be in phase and tonally balanced.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 2, 2018 21:50:09 GMT -6
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but by going by the above methods of singing without the headphones, isn't it essential that the vocal is the last thing recorded? and more importantly that whatever is bleeding in the background go unchanged after the vocals, I.e. the takes/edit's/performance shouldn't be fiddled with as it can cause some bad phase problems and "phantom bleeding" of ghost tracks that maybe didn't make the cut etc?
I really wanna give a go at it as I always find the performances more natural and on key when going without the headphones.
In my personal experience, that’s not super critical. Where it can be dodgy is if you need to tune the vocals. Melodyne (old RTAS version) could really make the bleed sound bad, for instance. Don't tune the vocals.
Don't record vocals that need tuning. (Do it over.) If the singer is reasonably decent it's faster.
And no, it doesn't need to be the last thing. Just don't do it before tracks that need majopr revisions - if you're going to have those tracks in the mons. (Unless, of course, you don't mind the occasional "Led Zepplin ghost tracks."
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Post by dror520 on Dec 2, 2018 21:51:59 GMT -6
I tried everything under the sun. A cardioid facing away from full range speakers in a well treated room works about as well as anything. One pass with the singer in place but not singing gives you a file to mix in out of phase. My first experiment was the lead, followed by backgrounds for Rare Earth's "I just want to Celebrate." I used a handheld Shure SM53 in the control room with the monitors pretty loud. It was the solution to the problem of an artist who wasn't very excited about the tune. This might be a stupid question, do you mute the recording of the vocal while it's being recorded so it's not playing back in realtime on the monitors?
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