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Post by Ward on Nov 29, 2018 8:09:33 GMT -6
There's really nothing exactly like it. True, it's descended from the usual forebears in the opto category like the LA2a. But there is something very special about it. Buy the KT and stick Lundahls in it? Well, I have a 'real' LA2a, a dual, a Stam to compare it too . . . and nothing compares to the CL1b. You can crush anything in it like a Fairchild and not destroy the program material. A plug-in that was certified by both Tube-tech and an independent expert (like Dave P) would be nice.
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Post by notneeson on Nov 29, 2018 8:24:42 GMT -6
Buy the KT and stick Lundahls in it? Well, I have a 'real' LA2a, a dual, a Stam to compare it too . . . and nothing compares to the CL1b. You can crush anything in it like a Fairchild and not destroy the program material. A plug-in that was certified by both Tube-tech and an independent expert (like Dave P) would be nice. I was mostly kidding, but it might be interesting nonetheless.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Nov 29, 2018 8:26:20 GMT -6
Buy the KT and stick Lundahls in it? Well, I have a 'real' LA2a, a dual, a Stam to compare it too . . . and nothing compares to the CL1b. You can crush anything in it like a Fairchild and not destroy the program material. A plug-in that was certified by both Tube-tech and an independent expert (like Dave P) would be nice. Yeah It’s a combination of their take on the iron the T4B the additional controls that morphed into a very different powerful tool. That’s something that gets lost in the clone wars and trying to win the price best historical recreation, the tools that started as a clone and morphed into something far more useful.
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ericn
Temp
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Post by ericn on Nov 29, 2018 8:31:04 GMT -6
Really? I love all types of instruments and gear--new and innovative, weird old crap, circuit bent, boutique high end, DIY, and the classics such as Gibson 45s, Radio King snares, u47s and LA2As. There's a reason that the classics are classic, and wanting to use some of those tools in the pursuit of making great music is not a shortcut. Many of us that are building CAPI pres or buying Klark Teknik outboard gear are working professionals on a budget, or young engineers building their first studio. And sure, there are hobbyist out there too. But I don't begrudge or belittle them because they help keep the market afloat and they love their hobby. If it's innovation and imagination you seek look no further than the amazing plugins that are being produced these days. Oh boy . . . some are going to disagree with this bold assertion but, screw it, here goes!! Some (SOME) of the 1176 clones are actually BETTER than the originals! At least now they are. Originals wear out over time, and even if you get an original that ios well maintained and has been repaired over the years as needed, still usually not as good as one of the top clones, such as Audio-Scape's (Chris Yetter's) or Mohog's clones. The top-end clone makers are making them to original specs with fantastic components. And I've owned (and used other people's) originals. MOST were noisy and on the verge of catching alight at any time, and sometimes there have been fires. So this is a legitimate thread. This is getting the magic of the originals but made with incredible care and built-in dependability. OK, fire away . . . take your best shot, show we what you got, buddy, I'm not afraid. Nothing recreates the sound of “time” ! It’s funny how many of us old timers who floated around who have stories of being put off by some classic because the first one we used was in poor condition, even funnier is how for each of those stories we know somebody who feel in love with that exact unit that was in poor condition and has been on a quest for something with those exact ills.
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Post by svart on Nov 29, 2018 8:35:48 GMT -6
Speaking of clones, I have a couple 4 channel SSL9K preamp units for sale in the classifieds..
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Post by EmRR on Nov 29, 2018 8:49:16 GMT -6
If every kid can save his allowance and get a decent imitation of a classic everything will sound the same. We will call this the Doug factor named after our own EMRR, Listen to Doug’s stuff it has it’s own sonic footprint stamped out by his unique gear collection. How much of his taste do you think was fueled by picking up this less fashionable tube gear for next to nothing? I’ll bet it was what pointed him in that direction and fed his quest over the years. Yeah, give it a few more years, everything having a more streamlined homogenized tone from the increase in 'classic' equipment usage. Then maybe the Bheringer tone starts to poke out. Two things drop me to most of the gear I have, in this order. 1) It really sounded better than anything else to my ears. 2) I could repair it easily.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 29, 2018 9:20:25 GMT -6
If every kid can save his allowance and get a decent imitation of a classic everything will sound the same. We will call this the Doug factor named after our own EMRR, Listen to Doug’s stuff it has it’s own sonic footprint stamped out by his unique gear collection. How much of his taste do you think was fueled by picking up this less fashionable tube gear for next to nothing? I’ll bet it was what pointed him in that direction and fed his quest over the years. Yeah, give it a few more years, everything having a more streamlined homogenized tone from the increase in 'classic' equipment usage. Then maybe the Bheringer tone starts to poke out. Two things drop me to most of the gear I have, in this order. 1) It really sounded better than anything else to my ears. 2) I could repair it easily. Repair? What is this that you speak of ?😁 Remember the days when everybody had a rack of stuff they would bring with them because they knew nobody would have the few things that have them the their tone?
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Post by EmRR on Nov 29, 2018 10:08:43 GMT -6
2) I could repair it easily. Repair? What is this that you speak of ?😁 Remember the days when everybody had a rack of stuff they would bring with them because they knew nobody would have the few things that have them the their tone? Yeah, it mattered more when all gear cost a lot, and there was no expeditious service path. The cartage industry is really in the toilet now.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 29, 2018 11:31:32 GMT -6
Repair? What is this that you speak of ?😁 Remember the days when everybody had a rack of stuff they would bring with them because they knew nobody would have the few things that have them the their tone? Yeah, it mattered more when all gear cost a lot, and there was no expeditious service path. The cartage industry is really in the toilet now. My cartage was always me but I know a couple of case builders who are now doing general construction.
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 29, 2018 12:10:47 GMT -6
If every kid can save his allowance and get a decent imitation of a classic everything will sound the same. We will call this the Doug factor named after our own EMRR, Listen to Doug’s stuff it has it’s own sonic footprint stamped out by his unique gear collection. How much of his taste do you think was fueled by picking up this less fashionable tube gear for next to nothing? I’ll bet it was what pointed him in that direction and fed his quest over the years. Yeah, give it a few more years, everything having a more streamlined homogenized tone from the increase in 'classic' equipment usage. Then maybe the Bheringer tone starts to poke out. Two things drop me to most of the gear I have, in this order. 1) It really sounded better than anything else to my ears. 2) I could repair it easily. I couldn't disagree more, respectfully of course! The clones and DIY kits you sadly disparage are only a piece of the puzzle for many engineers these days. Add in the newer boutique gear like Cranesong and Manley, the tweaking of classic sounds such as what Hairball does, along with the crazy sonic innovations of plugins and you'll get the fuller picture of what's actually happening. I do get it. You were blessed to begin your gear quest at a time when it was financially possible to afford the originals. I'm no kid and I came to the engineering game late as part of long winding evolution of my career in music. But honestly ask yourself, if you were a struggling twenty-five and looking to build a studio would you not be purchasing CAPI pres and Klark Teknik? I'd probably love working in your studio--you're blessed to have it. But good Lord, some of you guys really come off as cranky old men!
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 29, 2018 12:17:44 GMT -6
Oh boy . . . some are going to disagree with this bold assertion but, screw it, here goes!! Some (SOME) of the 1176 clones are actually BETTER than the originals! At least now they are. Originals wear out over time, and even if you get an original that ios well maintained and has been repaired over the years as needed, still usually not as good as one of the top clones, such as Audio-Scape's (Chris Yetter's) or Mohog's clones. The top-end clone makers are making them to original specs with fantastic components. And I've owned (and used other people's) originals. MOST were noisy and on the verge of catching alight at any time, and sometimes there have been fires. So this is a legitimate thread. This is getting the magic of the originals but made with incredible care and built-in dependability. OK, fire away . . . take your best shot, show we what you got, buddy, I'm not afraid. Amen brother. You speak truth to dogma.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 29, 2018 14:51:01 GMT -6
Ya know, there were always more flavors, and there are certainly even more now. So many of those classic records were NOT made with API/Fairchild/Neumann/Neve/UA/UREI, and there were a lot of people at the time who didn't like the stuff, preferring so many OTHER things that were available. This whole thing of 'classic' gear is kind of imaginary, we generally don't have any idea what was used on various old records we like.
Yes, we are in a matured industry, where once equipment was designed and marketed to fill a perceived void or introduce a new technology, or even just make a smaller version that weighed less, and that has mostly passed. The last 10-15 years has seen an explosion of startups who've felt they could copy something old, claim it's the same, and gain market share. This has led to a race to the bottom, which has clearly made a lot of equipment affordable to many people for the first time, not a bad thing. Now that Behringer is on board and trying to get as much of it as they can, it will force a lot of smaller players out, if they have nothing original to offer. They certainly can't compete on price, and quality doesn't always win. And the cycle continues.
So, I'm not disparaging the equipment available today, I'm bemoaning the 'me too' aspect of everyone thinking they want/need the same stuff as everyone else which has led to this state of affairs. There've been a lot of companies come and go with solid great sounding easy to use products which never took off, because no one told us over and over again that we needed them. I'm bemoaning the passing of the future-looking era where even the ADAT and Mackie 8 bus could get a lot of people excited because of the big step up they actually were for a lot of people, now we're firmly post-modern in every way, looking back as much as forward. It's hard to compete with nostalgia at a cut rate price.
Yeah, there's a huge lack of originality....so many companies can't even bother to come up with a twist on the original model #.....statistics says they might lose X% of potential customers if it's not incredibly clone-ish in name, look, and function. So many originals have control functions that can and should be expanded for modern usage, and very few bother to add features that are simple and obvious expansions that don't take a single thing away from the original. And we tolerate it, since we don't ask for more, we keep buying the facsimile of the exact same product, like it's some kind of insurance or something. The mindless copying of vintage passive filter sets is a great example; I've owned and sold off the originals because the frequency selections made sense in 1955, not 2005.
Anyway, I don't own many 'classics' to speak of, and I'm not much personally interested in many of their clones. I buy and use stuff that's off the beaten path, stuff that isn't of much interest to most, maybe because they don't know of it or aren't interested in checking it out. I've gone through a lot of gear over the years, and don't generally keep things that aren't useful to me. I don't have an 1176, but I do have a CAPI FC526 pair. I never much liked the 1176's and 1178's I encountered. I've never had an LA-2A, though I did kinda like the LA-3's I had available for awhile. But I don't miss them that much either. I do have a TB4 circuit I'm building that's mostly an LA-2A, but the transformers are all different and the output amp will sound different. I've got a couple of expanded Pultec Program and Mid clones that are sorta more useful in regards to frequencies than originals, but don't really sound anything like originals. I rarely use them. I like my Langevin 251's better for 'tone'....but no one's cloning those, so you gotta be a vintage gearhead to even know about them. They've blown up lately, but it's not that long ago they were still pretty cheap. Oh, Manley made a version for awhile, and no one bought it so it's been discontinued forever. The vari-mu comps I've got are all vintage types that I had to restore/rebuild, and expand the control functions of. None of them are 'desirable', many of them I've preferred the sound of over the 'desirable/known' types that have come through here for service. Is it real, or just familiarity? Who knows, but one can have a different sonic opinion. I haven't liked UA vari-mu's, the Stalevel doesn't do anything my modified SA-39's and 26U's and various RCA's don't also do, and I've never thought the Altec 436's or Federals brought anything competitive to the table for what they cost. I don't have any Neve flavors, though I've worked on a couple of original consoles. The closest to an API flavor I have is some RCA's that use 2520's but with UTC nickel core transformers. I have an overabundance of other NON-API/Neve preamps that I like enough to not feel the need. I've got more old tube preamps than anything, but also at least a dozen various SS types, which cover a lot of bases. These things have gotten harder to find on one level, but then there's pretty good number of them that are selling for about what they sold for 20 years ago, and they sound great. And all these things are out there for anyone to experience and enjoy, if people would look!
The tube thing; mostly misunderstood, frequently referred to as if it's just one more flavor in a list of API/Neve/tube. There are really more sonic flavors available amongst old tube gear than there are amongst SS gear. Some of it's just kinda like bad SS gear! From where I stand, the auditioning of one op amp versus another in an API type circuit looks like hairsplitting compared to what you get with different old tube preamps, once you've heard a lot of them.
So these are all 'opinions', and certainly don't set out to tell anyone they are wrong in their approach, it's not all that dramatic a thing. ward did indeed ask for opinions, so there ya go. Mostly my gear tastes make me a weirdo, and that's fine. I've tried a lot of gear, I've fixed and modified a lot of gear. That probably makes me a jaded geezer, but it doesn't negate the build up of experience, nor does it make me elitist, it just is where I am in all this. I've been making records for hire for 24 years now.
All of this means nothing without something decent to record. We've all heard terrible sounding records cut with Neumann/Neve/Ampex/UREI/Fairchild, and great ones cut on EV/Quantum/Scully/Pandora, and others still cut on Mackie/ADAT/Finalizer.....okay that last one's a stretch, but it's happened, certainly. We've probably all heard our preferred 'golden' signal chains make astonishing sounds one day, and steaming turds the next, dependent on the source.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 29, 2018 14:52:36 GMT -6
Yeah, give it a few more years, everything having a more streamlined homogenized tone from the increase in 'classic' equipment usage. Then maybe the Bheringer tone starts to poke out. Two things drop me to most of the gear I have, in this order. 1) It really sounded better than anything else to my ears. 2) I could repair it easily. I couldn't disagree more, respectfully of course! The clones and DIY kits you sadly disparage are only a piece of the puzzle for many engineers these days. Add in the newer boutique gear like Cranesong and Manley, the tweaking of classic sounds such as what Hairball does, along with the crazy sonic innovations of plugins and you'll get the fuller picture of what's actually happening. I do get it. You were blessed to begin your gear quest at a time when it was financially possible to afford the originals. I'm no kid and I came to the engineering game late as part of long winding evolution of my career in music. But honestly ask yourself, if you were a struggling twenty-five and looking to build a studio would you not be purchasing CAPI pres and Klark Teknik? I'd probably love working in your studio--you're blessed to have it. But good Lord, some of you guys really come off as cranky old men! The thing I like about this place is we can disagree without insulting each other, now I came up when the classics were already becoming out of reach. BAE Anthony DeMaria we’re starting to build there clones. I wish I could have afforded them, frankly it wasn’t till I got to spend time at Paisley Park and Musichead / Sound Summit that I got to work with well maintained examples. I honestly probably would have been first in line if the CAPI, KT Warm, Stam and Audioscape would have been available, I’m not saying I’m a hypocrite, what I am saying is I and the guys I came up with are better engineers because we didn’t have these options. Most of the guys who I came up with who have successfull careers in audio admit the limitations made us learn to work harder, We spent hours learning mics that were new to us, how to make what was at hand work, understand the true polar pattern. Figure out how to eek out every little bit of dynamic range out of a Peavey Mark IV. You, I’m not singling you out here, have no idea how many new guys have drooled all over my rack of Dan Alexander pres who have never used a Neve pre and are shocked that they are not the sound in their heads ( funny how many think what is really the API sound is the Neve sound and vice versa). I admit I own now own and have owned clones along with just as much gear that flies under the Radar ( Not that I would fly my RADAR) after a career of learning what I like and how to make do with what I’m handed. Hell I have EQ’ed a PA with API 560’s when my lunch box was the only EQ’s and used a rane Graphic to over come a John Mayer clone before anybody new who John Mayer was. What I’m saying is I’m better at what I do because I didn’t have the tools I wish I had back then and have found my sonic path because of it. But yeah if I was starting out today I’d probably racks full of KT, it’s just I know me 35 years later would not be as good as I am today. Do you know why Crane Song has produced some of the most original and interesting gear? As someone raised in Northern WI, I can tell you if everybody had to spend winters in Superior WI they would spend their time developing gear that good, there is nothing else to do but drink and stay warm.
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 29, 2018 15:36:12 GMT -6
I couldn't disagree more, respectfully of course! The clones and DIY kits you sadly disparage are only a piece of the puzzle for many engineers these days. Add in the newer boutique gear like Cranesong and Manley, the tweaking of classic sounds such as what Hairball does, along with the crazy sonic innovations of plugins and you'll get the fuller picture of what's actually happening. I do get it. You were blessed to begin your gear quest at a time when it was financially possible to afford the originals. I'm no kid and I came to the engineering game late as part of long winding evolution of my career in music. But honestly ask yourself, if you were a struggling twenty-five and looking to build a studio would you not be purchasing CAPI pres and Klark Teknik? I'd probably love working in your studio--you're blessed to have it. But good Lord, some of you guys really come off as cranky old men! The thing I like about this place is we can disagree without insulting each other, now I came up when the classics were already becoming out of reach. BAE Anthony DeMaria we’re starting to build there clones. I wish I could have afforded them, frankly it wasn’t till I got to spend time at Paisley Park and Musichead / Sound Summit that I got to work with well maintained examples. I honestly probably would have been first in line if the CAPI, KT Warm, Stam and Audioscape would have been available, I’m not saying I’m a hypocrite, what I am saying is I and the guys I came up with are better engineers because we didn’t have these options. Most of the guys who I came up with who have successfull careers in audio admit the limitations made us learn to work harder, We spent hours learning mics that were new to us, how to make what was at hand work, understand the true polar pattern. Figure out how to eek out every little bit of dynamic range out of a Peavey Mark IV. You, I’m not singling you out here, have no idea how many new guys have drooled all over my rack of Dan Alexander pres who have never used a Neve pre and are shocked that they are not the sound in their heads ( funny how many think what is really the API sound is the Neve sound and vice versa). I admit I own now own and have owned clones along with just as much gear that flies under the Radar ( Not that I would fly my RADAR) after a career of learning what I like and how to make do with what I’m handed. Hell I have EQ’ed a PA with API 560’s when my lunch box was the only EQ’s and used a rane Graphic to over come a John Mayer clone before anybody new who John Mayer was. What I’m saying is I’m better at what I do because I didn’t have the tools I wish I had back then and have found my sonic path because of it. But yeah if I was starting out today I’d probably racks full of KT, it’s just I know me 35 years later would not be as good as I am today. Do you know why Crane Song has produced some of the most original and interesting gear? As someone raised in Northern WI, I can tell you if everybody had to spend winters in Superior WI they would spend their time developing gear that good, there is nothing else to do but drink and stay warm. I don't know if I completely buy into the premise that using crappy gear makes us better--but up to a point I do. Different paths for different people. (One thing that made Big Star so great is that they had free access to a great studio when they were teenagers--no learning the hard way for them!) These days if a young engineer struggles with their $100 interface and free plugins to try and make good music, he or she is learning the basics with great limitations just as you did with your low end analog gear. So why belittle their dreams when they want to step up to CAPI pre or a KT76 with smirking references to Behringer? (I love my Behritone by the way.) I understand the magic of vintage--most of the drums I play are OLD, and I recently bought an old Trans Stamp Zildjian A that is now my favorite ride. But I also love a Paiste prototype ride I bought at Guitar Center. I guess I just bristle at the dogma of thinking that there's only one way to record great music.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 29, 2018 15:49:24 GMT -6
Well yeah, We're all on an individual journey and that's the great part about it. Anyone's journey can have right and left detours but we're all just chasing the satisfaction of being sonic craftsmen and people of music. I really don't think there's any wrong way to go about it. Other than laziness and pandering.
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 29, 2018 15:59:27 GMT -6
Ya know, there were always more flavors, and there are certainly even more now. So many of those classic records were NOT made with API/Fairchild/Neumann/Neve/UA/UREI, and there were a lot of people at the time who didn't like the stuff, preferring so many OTHER things that were available. This whole thing of 'classic' gear is kind of imaginary, we generally don't have any idea what was used on various old records we like. Yes, we are in a matured industry, where once equipment was designed and marketed to fill a perceived void or introduce a new technology, or even just make a smaller version that weighed less, and that has mostly passed. The last 10-15 years has seen an explosion of startups who've felt they could copy something old, claim it's the same, and gain market share. This has led to a race to the bottom, which has clearly made a lot of equipment affordable to many people for the first time, not a bad thing. Now that Behringer is on board and trying to get as much of it as they can, it will force a lot of smaller players out, if they have nothing original to offer. They certainly can't compete on price, and quality doesn't always win. And the cycle continues. So, I'm not disparaging the equipment available today, I'm bemoaning the 'me too' aspect of everyone thinking they want/need the same stuff as everyone else which has led to this state of affairs. There've been a lot of companies come and go with solid great sounding easy to use products which never took off, because no one told us over and over again that we needed them. I'm bemoaning the passing of the future-looking era where even the ADAT and Mackie 8 bus could get a lot of people excited because of the big step up they actually were for a lot of people, now we're firmly post-modern in every way, looking back as much as forward. It's hard to compete with nostalgia at a cut rate price. Yeah, there's a huge lack of originality....so many companies can't even bother to come up with a twist on the original model #.....statistics says they might lose X% of potential customers if it's not incredibly clone-ish in name, look, and function. So many originals have control functions that can and should be expanded for modern usage, and very few bother to add features that are simple and obvious expansions that don't take a single thing away from the original. And we tolerate it, since we don't ask for more, we keep buying the facsimile of the exact same product, like it's some kind of insurance or something. The mindless copying of vintage passive filter sets is a great example; I've owned and sold off the originals because the frequency selections made sense in 1955, not 2005. Anyway, I don't own many 'classics' to speak of, and I'm not much personally interested in many of their clones. I buy and use stuff that's off the beaten path, stuff that isn't of much interest to most, maybe because they don't know of it or aren't interested in checking it out. I've gone through a lot of gear over the years, and don't generally keep things that aren't useful to me. I don't have an 1176, but I do have a CAPI FC526 pair. I never much liked the 1176's and 1178's I encountered. I've never had an LA-2A, though I did kinda like the LA-3's I had available for awhile. But I don't miss them that much either. I do have a TB4 circuit I'm building that's mostly an LA-2A, but the transformers are all different and the output amp will sound different. I've got a couple of expanded Pultec Program and Mid clones that are sorta more useful in regards to frequencies than originals, but don't really sound anything like originals. I rarely use them. I like my Langevin 251's better for 'tone'....but no one's cloning those, so you gotta be a vintage gearhead to even know about them. They've blown up lately, but it's not that long ago they were still pretty cheap. Oh, Manley made a version for awhile, and no one bought it so it's been discontinued forever. The vari-mu comps I've got are all vintage types that I had to restore/rebuild, and expand the control functions of. None of them are 'desirable', many of them I've preferred the sound of over the 'desirable/known' types that have come through here for service. Is it real, or just familiarity? Who knows, but one can have a different sonic opinion. I haven't liked UA vari-mu's, the Stalevel doesn't do anything my modified SA-39's and 26U's and various RCA's don't also do, and I've never thought the Altec 436's or Federals brought anything competitive to the table for what they cost. I don't have any Neve flavors, though I've worked on a couple of original consoles. The closest to an API flavor I have is some RCA's that use 2520's but with UTC nickel core transformers. I have an overabundance of other NON-API/Neve preamps that I like enough to not feel the need. I've got more old tube preamps than anything, but also at least a dozen various SS types, which cover a lot of bases. These things have gotten harder to find on one level, but then there's pretty good number of them that are selling for about what they sold for 20 years ago, and they sound great. And all these things are out there for anyone to experience and enjoy, if people would look! The tube thing; mostly misunderstood, frequently referred to as if it's just one more flavor in a list of API/Neve/tube. There are really more sonic flavors available amongst old tube gear than there are amongst SS gear. Some of it's just kinda like bad SS gear! From where I stand, the auditioning of one op amp versus another in an API type circuit looks like hairsplitting compared to what you get with different old tube preamps, once you've heard a lot of them. So these are all 'opinions', and certainly don't set out to tell anyone they are wrong in their approach, it's not all that dramatic a thing. ward did indeed ask for opinions, so there ya go. Mostly my gear tastes make me a weirdo, and that's fine. I've tried a lot of gear, I've fixed and modified a lot of gear. That probably makes me a jaded geezer, but it doesn't negate the build up of experience, nor does it make me elitist, it just is where I am in all this. I've been making records for hire for 24 years now. All of this means nothing without something decent to record. We've all heard terrible sounding records cut with Neumann/Neve/Ampex/UREI/Fairchild, and great ones cut on EV/Quantum/Scully/Pandora, and others still cut on Mackie/ADAT/Finalizer.....okay that last one's a stretch, but it's happened, certainly. We've probably all heard our preferred 'golden' signal chains make astonishing sounds one day, and steaming turds the next, dependent on the source. Thanks for taking the time to go more deeply and thoughtfully into this, and I really can't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. Most of the weird stuff I've collected are instruments and not recording gear--but it's the same premise, finding interesting sounds that add a slight twist that hit's the ear differently. Buying gear on reputation only will only get you so far, and for some the clone craze is a backlash of sorts to the digital era as young bands and artists search for authenticity, thinking that it resides in ribbons and tubes. Personally, I just bought a KT-2A for two reasons: I want to see what color it imparts to my mics, and it's affordable to me.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 29, 2018 16:32:52 GMT -6
The thing I like about this place is we can disagree without insulting each other, now I came up when the classics were already becoming out of reach. BAE Anthony DeMaria we’re starting to build there clones. I wish I could have afforded them, frankly it wasn’t till I got to spend time at Paisley Park and Musichead / Sound Summit that I got to work with well maintained examples. I honestly probably would have been first in line if the CAPI, KT Warm, Stam and Audioscape would have been available, I’m not saying I’m a hypocrite, what I am saying is I and the guys I came up with are better engineers because we didn’t have these options. Most of the guys who I came up with who have successfull careers in audio admit the limitations made us learn to work harder, We spent hours learning mics that were new to us, how to make what was at hand work, understand the true polar pattern. Figure out how to eek out every little bit of dynamic range out of a Peavey Mark IV. You, I’m not singling you out here, have no idea how many new guys have drooled all over my rack of Dan Alexander pres who have never used a Neve pre and are shocked that they are not the sound in their heads ( funny how many think what is really the API sound is the Neve sound and vice versa). I admit I own now own and have owned clones along with just as much gear that flies under the Radar ( Not that I would fly my RADAR) after a career of learning what I like and how to make do with what I’m handed. Hell I have EQ’ed a PA with API 560’s when my lunch box was the only EQ’s and used a rane Graphic to over come a John Mayer clone before anybody new who John Mayer was. What I’m saying is I’m better at what I do because I didn’t have the tools I wish I had back then and have found my sonic path because of it. But yeah if I was starting out today I’d probably racks full of KT, it’s just I know me 35 years later would not be as good as I am today. Do you know why Crane Song has produced some of the most original and interesting gear? As someone raised in Northern WI, I can tell you if everybody had to spend winters in Superior WI they would spend their time developing gear that good, there is nothing else to do but drink and stay warm. I don't know if I completely buy into the premise that using crappy gear makes us better--but up to a point I do. Different paths for different people. (One thing that made Big Star so great is that they had free access to a great studio when they were teenagers--no learning the hard way for them!) These days if a young engineer struggles with their $100 interface and free plugins to try and make good music, he or she is learning the basics with great limitations just as you did with your low end analog gear. So why belittle their dreams when they want to step up to CAPI pre or a KT76 with smirking references to Behringer? (I love my Behritone by the way.) I understand the magic of vintage--most of the drums I play are OLD, and I recently bought an old Trans Stamp Zildjian A that is now my favorite ride. But I also love a Paiste prototype ride I bought at Guitar Center. I guess I just bristle at the dogma of thinking that there's only one way to record great music. I think part of where I’m coming from is being asked to lecture to a few recording school programs: the first thing I always notice is most of these kids couldn’t think their way out of a box, it’s eithe “this is the method we use for X” or simply throw the most expensive gear at it. Limitations force us to think, to develop skills. As a gearpimp one of the most interesting lesson was that the guy who bought one piece at a time was more likely to be a better AE than the guy who would walk in and buy a bunch of stuff. The guy who bought the one piece would learn more about that one piece because of the minimal amount changed variables and would learn everything about that piece, he was also the guy least likely to call with very simple to solve issues. Part of what made me in demand as a live, studio gearpimp and consultiant was my knowledge of routing and problem solving built in situations of here is what you got now make it work, to this day I get asked to solve problems which little to no budget by some of my old competition as well as clients. Every time I hear how the guys coming out of some big university programs just can’t do solve some simple problems. I’m not really against the new inexpensive clones, I’m against that being the starting point and the standard that gear is judged. I walk into the local independent MI dealer ( who is a Warm dealer at my suggestion) or GC and everybody wants the Cheapest 47 clone even if it doesn’t sound like a real 47 but it says 47 and looks like a 47. The good news for me is they probably traded something they have no idea how good it is and nobody else but me will want so I get it cheap.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 29, 2018 16:59:02 GMT -6
No matter how you look at it...or rather listen too it ALL gear is DIFFERENT. Period. Clones are riding the wave of a name from back in the day..so what? They still sound NOTHING like the original and never will. They can't. Most of the electronic components back then aren't made anymore. If anything clones are better because now there are a ton of flavors of LA2As/1176/ect to compare too and choose that you want use for its sound. Plus on top of that its really hard to make anything analog match for real with another version of it. Thats the beauty of analog is the character everyone markets so much is just the in discrepancies inherent in analog gear. They just market it as full of character to a world of people hooked on plugins..thats a different argument though..so i digress There is plenty of crappy gear that has had huge impact. Alesis 3630 anyone? So..really this argument is mute. ha pun intended Just find the thing that makes the sound you want because there isn't anything that will sound like that one thing you find.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 29, 2018 17:01:52 GMT -6
I don't know if I completely buy into the premise that using crappy gear makes us better--but up to a point I do. Different paths for different people. (One thing that made Big Star so great is that they had free access to a great studio when they were teenagers--no learning the hard way for them!) These days if a young engineer struggles with their $100 interface and free plugins to try and make good music, he or she is learning the basics with great limitations just as you did with your low end analog gear. So why belittle their dreams when they want to step up to CAPI pre or a KT76 with smirking references to Behringer? (I love my Behritone by the way.) I understand the magic of vintage--most of the drums I play are OLD, and I recently bought an old Trans Stamp Zildjian A that is now my favorite ride. But I also love a Paiste prototype ride I bought at Guitar Center. I guess I just bristle at the dogma of thinking that there's only one way to record great music. I think part of where I’m coming from is being asked to lecture to a few recording school programs: the first thing I always notice is most of these kids couldn’t think their way out of a box, it’s eithe “this is the method we use for X” or simply throw the most expensive gear at it. Limitations force us to think, to develop skills. As a gearpimp one of the most interesting lesson was that the guy who bought one piece at a time was more likely to be a better AE than the guy who would walk in and buy a bunch of stuff. The guy who bought the one piece would learn more about that one piece because of the minimal amount changed variables and would learn everything about that piece, he was also the guy least likely to call with very simple to solve issues. Part of what made me in demand as a live, studio gearpimp and consultiant was my knowledge of routing and problem solving built in situations of here is what you got now make it work, to this day I get asked to solve problems which little to no budget by some of my old competition as well as clients. Every time I hear how the guys coming out of some big university programs just can’t do solve some simple problems. I’m not really against the new inexpensive clones, I’m against that being the starting point and the standard that gear is judged. I walk into the local independent MI dealer ( who is a Warm dealer at my suggestion) or GC and everybody wants the Cheapest 47 clone even if it doesn’t sound like a real 47 but it says 47 and looks like a 47. The good news for me is they probably traded something they have no idea how good it is and nobody else but me will want so I get it cheap. All your preaching here is learn your gear. That's it. Most don't or can't or find the quickest easiest way to do XYZ because of how things are today. So I agree with you to an extent. However the process is no different today from how it was "back in the day" other than the options available today are tenfold. You still need to learn you're tools to make anything sound good.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 29, 2018 17:28:31 GMT -6
The most difficult thing here is getting any experience with the clones. You basically have to buy a Warm, or a Stam, or a Serpent, etc, etc.. to know how it sounds. That's difficult, although after a few years of buying and selling, you might have a fair idea of what you like. For instance, it took me quite some time and not a few mics to know I'm basically U67 compatible. So, we end up relying on others sharing their experiences and our and sound files posted to give us a hand, and we get these form Realgear or youtube, etc.
It's no wonder a clone industry arose. Once people find out about the classic gear used on classic albums, they try them as plug-ins, and then have at least some idea of what it might sound like, and they hear that hardware is even better. When you have ears to hear and you have at least some contact with the holy grail pieces, you get sucked into comparing nuances of clones vs. vintage gear. I'm beginning to not care so much about exact cloning anymore. Things like an LA2A aren't even my first choice anymore. What I love is how a company like Chandler uses vintage U47's and an ELAM 251's as a benchmark, and creates something new that's every bit as great as the classics, but different enough to be something you can like in its own right, or not.
I root hard for any clone maker to actually equal or surpass an original, but I haven't heard one do that yet. Of course there are many I'd be happy to own, Stam's making some great things, Splice seems high end, etc. But even though there are some great clone values, so far, if you want the exact thing a classic piece does, you've got to buy one.
I would love for something like the Stamchild to stand on its own right and equal things like a CL1B or a Retro 176. That would make things really interesting.
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 29, 2018 22:09:04 GMT -6
I would love for something like the Stamchild to stand on its own right and equal things like a CL1B or a Retro 176. That would make things really interesting. Isn't that sorta like asking a great Beatles tribute band to play their own songs?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 29, 2018 22:19:28 GMT -6
You're kinda right lpedrum ! What I was really trying to say was it would be great if it simply sounded as good as a CL1B or a Retro 176, even if it's similar to a Fairchild but not identical. That probably wasn't the best example I could have thought of. The way the Chandler REDD sounds vs. the classics is a better example. People are attracted to the clones because they give them an idea of the sonic territory, but I'm still waiting for a mic maker to equal or or even be preferable to the greats. I think it's possible. Lewitt mics are a good example. Their 640 sound is in the AKG 414 family, but sounds better in the low end.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,817
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Post by ericn on Nov 29, 2018 22:52:19 GMT -6
I would love for something like the Stamchild to stand on its own right and equal things like a CL1B or a Retro 176. That would make things really interesting. Isn't that sorta like asking a great Beatles tribute band to play their own songs? Awe man I think I mixed that gig😎 But I get what Martin is saying, on this one it looks llke Stam tried to reinvent the wheel, taking it on its own might be better than judging it against the real thing. Example the Manley Enhanced Pultec is a nice EQ, but when you judge it against a real Pultec it disappoints.
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Post by Ward on Nov 30, 2018 6:40:30 GMT -6
SNIP . . . You still need to learn you're tools to make anything sound good. This is one of the best statements made in this thread. Now, let's get back to opinions on which is your preferred clone of X and why!!
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Post by Ward on Nov 30, 2018 9:03:55 GMT -6
414 clones.
Lewitt, Stam, Warm, AKG's own, thoughts on which you prefer and why?
Personal favorite is a C414EB with the teflon capsule replaced with a brass. Why? The weight in the tone. PLus, still has the sparkle of a C12a 412 or early 414.
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