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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 1, 2018 13:26:21 GMT -6
Is it something you find plasticky or something? Do you find the Kemper to be objectively worse? Because in a tune you would only be able to hear the Kemper... I guess I’m just saying even if I found examples of a real amp vs. Kemper to be a tiny bit different, I didn’t think one was particularly better than the other. I’m sure in the room the amp has that chest thump, but the end result always sounded pretty spot on. But we all have different thresholds for what we want out of different things - my amp threshold might not be as high as yours. It’s kind of like synth stuff...when people start talking about warming up their analog synth sounds through vintage pres...I’m kindve like...er...ok, that isn’t a dramatic change to me. It's a lack of dimension. When I've owned the Kemper, I've taken tracks I'm working on, almost always with a pair of wide rhythm guitars, and swapped in Kemper tracks for the mic'd amp tracks. The Kemper tracks (MBritt are the ones I was mostly relying on) just sound flatter. Less distinct, less punchy, more similar across various types of tones. That video from the first page of this thread (which we already talked about) shows it pretty well at that time stamp I referenced in the post. The profile totally gets in the ballpark of the general tone, and like I've said, I think the Kemper is the best sounding option for amp sim. The UAD stuff and the Ox and everything else I've tried (should note I've not tried the last couple UAD sims) have fallen short of the Kemper to my ear. But for me, it just still sounds flattened and a little smeary/non-distinct. And the workflow I'm comparing it to is my isolation cab setup. There's no 'amp in the room' component. I'm only ever listening to the recorded sound coming out my monitors. Edit: and for high gain stuff, I think the Kemper very well may be totally good enough. The differences I always find are much less pronounced on the shreddier stuff, which I suspect may be the reason that 99% of the Kemper demos out there are metal-y, stunt-guitar kind of stuff. Even when not metal-y, it's still usually high gain tones you hear demo'd. I get that and agree to a point. Kindve what I was trying to say with the “dynamic” comment. I know me and doing demos for other people I know I’d hate having to mix up an amp all the time - plus I don’t have an iso cab (and that seems kindve like a rabbit hole). Try that Buxom Betty and the Newest Suhr and see what you think. I would imagine it’s still not as good as the real thing, but I think they’ve taken leaps. I also wonder how much the new converters have to do with it - I didn’t think any of the sims were even close to the Kemper before.
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Post by longscale on Dec 1, 2018 13:36:30 GMT -6
Do you guys use the Kemper recording Direct with a line out off of the Kemper? How would it work if you ran that signal into a nice monitor and recorded the monitor in the room as if it were the amp itself? 100% of the time direct line out. If I were to use it to drive a speaker and mic that up (say to capture a little air or room) I'd likely just wire up a real amp. I never use the digital out - not sure why I don't. Possibly the reason is I will occasionally run the Kemper into a REDD.47, or a API 512 and hit a compressor or two on the way in. But typically it is a straight wire from the Kemper to the AD for me. It is all about the turn it on start working flow. I do also record mono - mostly no effects from the Kemper. I treat it like I would an amp in the room.
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Post by ragan on Dec 1, 2018 13:55:12 GMT -6
It's a lack of dimension. When I've owned the Kemper, I've taken tracks I'm working on, almost always with a pair of wide rhythm guitars, and swapped in Kemper tracks for the mic'd amp tracks. The Kemper tracks (MBritt are the ones I was mostly relying on) just sound flatter. Less distinct, less punchy, more similar across various types of tones. That video from the first page of this thread (which we already talked about) shows it pretty well at that time stamp I referenced in the post. The profile totally gets in the ballpark of the general tone, and like I've said, I think the Kemper is the best sounding option for amp sim. The UAD stuff and the Ox and everything else I've tried (should note I've not tried the last couple UAD sims) have fallen short of the Kemper to my ear. But for me, it just still sounds flattened and a little smeary/non-distinct. And the workflow I'm comparing it to is my isolation cab setup. There's no 'amp in the room' component. I'm only ever listening to the recorded sound coming out my monitors. Edit: and for high gain stuff, I think the Kemper very well may be totally good enough. The differences I always find are much less pronounced on the shreddier stuff, which I suspect may be the reason that 99% of the Kemper demos out there are metal-y, stunt-guitar kind of stuff. Even when not metal-y, it's still usually high gain tones you hear demo'd. I get that and agree to a point. Kindve what I was trying to say with the “dynamic” comment. I know me and doing demos for other people I know I’d hate having to mix up an amp all the time - plus I don’t have an iso cab (and that seems kindve like a rabbit hole). Try that Buxom Betty and the Newest Suhr and see what you think. I would imagine it’s still not as good as the real thing, but I think they’ve taken leaps. I also wonder how much the new converters have to do with it - I didn’t think any of the sims were even close to the Kemper before. Yeah I had to put significant work into getting my iso cab setup up to snuff. But now I keep 3-4 mics in there and wired to my XLR patch bay. I've got the actual amps within reach and the satellite cabs I built live in the iso. So I turn the amps on, couple patch cables on the bay and I'm rolling, got the mic'd amp signal coming out of the monitors. But that's not for everyone and the Kemper is a great tool too. The minute it passes muster for me sonically, I'll try it again. It would be easier. That said, I also really like having the 57, the 609, a ribbon and an LDC as options come mix time. For getting width and variation in tones, the multiple mics are invaluable to me. So much sculpting I can do and so many tones to be coaxed out of a given track. I think probably I'll just be a mic'd amp kinda guy for the foreseeable future. But I'm always keen to try the other options like the Ox and Kemper and whatever else people come up with.
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Post by lcr on Dec 1, 2018 13:58:24 GMT -6
Direct
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 1, 2018 14:58:12 GMT -6
Do you guys use the Kemper recording Direct with a line out off of the Kemper? How would it work if you ran that signal into a nice monitor and recorded the monitor in the room as if it were the amp itself? direct would be how I’d want to use it. If I had to mic it up, that would defeat the whole point for me.
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 1, 2018 15:01:39 GMT -6
[...] But I'm always keen to try the other options like the Ox and Kemper and whatever else people come up with. this is why I’ve wanted to try the Two Notes method. You’re literally getting your amp sound, you’re just using cab convolutions. But still, if the Kemper could truly cut it, it would be simpler.
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Post by donr on Dec 1, 2018 16:50:11 GMT -6
Believe it or not, this setup rules! Turn off the cabinet part of the Kemper profile, go line in to the Two-notes Torpedo, and use their cab and mic IR's. More flavor, less filling. I think the move to IR's has made all modeling software sound much more realistic. I'm using the Torpedo amp emulation also, blended in with the incoming Kemper. about 20% Two-Notes 6L6 or KT88 soups up any incoming amp. I add 6L6 emu to the real Marshall 900's I use live. Mo better. You can also swap cabs inside the Kemper for new and different takes on your favorite profiles. Attachment Deleted
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Post by ragan on Dec 1, 2018 22:14:20 GMT -6
Believe it or not, this setup rules! Turn off the cabinet part of the Kemper profile, go line in to the Two-notes Torpedo, and use their cab and mic IR's. More flavor, less filling. I think the move to IR's has made all modeling software sound much more realistic. I'm using the Torpedo amp emulation also, blended in with the incoming Kemper. about 20% Two-Notes 6L6 or KT88 soups up any incoming amp. I add 6L6 emu to the real Marshall 900's I use live. Mo better. You can also swap cabs inside the Kemper for new and different takes on your favorite profiles. You're a wildman, Don.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 11, 2018 21:59:32 GMT -6
As much as I want to pocket my $1500...I just can't quit U, Kemper. I could do similar stuff with the UAD plugs...but it's just so much quicker and inspiring with the Kemper.
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Post by lcr on Dec 11, 2018 22:12:50 GMT -6
Anybody tried the Big Hairy Profiles? I recently discovered his youtube channel, for a rabbit hole guitar channel its great. Not just kemper content, I havent tried any of his profiles yet.
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 22, 2018 17:40:41 GMT -6
Believe it or not, this setup rules! Turn off the cabinet part of the Kemper profile, go line in to the Two-notes Torpedo, and use their cab and mic IR's. More flavor, less filling. I think the move to IR's has made all modeling software sound much more realistic. I'm using the Torpedo amp emulation also, blended in with the incoming Kemper. about 20% Two-Notes 6L6 or KT88 soups up any incoming amp. I add 6L6 emu to the real Marshall 900's I use live. Mo better. You can also swap cabs inside the Kemper for new and different takes on your favorite profiles. So I'm actually considering getting a Kemper to try out for recording (not live). Presumably, I could do what you're suggesting, Don, but with an IR loader in plugin form (for recording). That is, I could have a cab selected on the Kemper "main output" to take to the studio board for monitoring live, and take the "direct output" with no cab selected to my interface, and then choose a cab from one of the many IR loader plugins available. Would that work? Ugh, I can't believe I'm considering getting a Kemper, but all you Kemper-loving guys have got me really thinking about it. What do you think, Johnkenn? Still glad you've got your fourth (?) one?
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 22, 2018 22:22:49 GMT -6
Actually, I think the profiles are getting even better and the spring is pretty glorious. Ton Junkies has some great ones. I went back to the UAD stuff after tracking a few tunes with this and it was evident how much quicker the Kemper is.
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 22, 2018 22:45:57 GMT -6
Actually, I think the profiles are getting even better and the spring is pretty glorious. Ton Junkies has some great ones. I went back to the UAD stuff after tracking a few tunes with this and it was evident how much quicker the Kemper is. i was just listening to some of the AC-30 examples from The Amp Factory, and they sounded pretty damn good to me.
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Post by donr on Dec 23, 2018 0:04:43 GMT -6
Believe it or not, this setup rules! Turn off the cabinet part of the Kemper profile, go line in to the Two-notes Torpedo, and use their cab and mic IR's. More flavor, less filling. I think the move to IR's has made all modeling software sound much more realistic. I'm using the Torpedo amp emulation also, blended in with the incoming Kemper. about 20% Two-Notes 6L6 or KT88 soups up any incoming amp. I add 6L6 emu to the real Marshall 900's I use live. Mo better. You can also swap cabs inside the Kemper for new and different takes on your favorite profiles. So I'm actually considering getting a Kemper to try out for recording (not live). Presumably, I could do what you're suggesting, Don, but with an IR loader in plugin form (for recording). That is, I could have a cab selected on the Kemper "main output" to take to the studio board for monitoring live, and take the "direct output" with no cab selected to my interface, and then choose a cab from one of the many IR loader plugins available. Would that work? Ugh, I can't believe I'm considering getting a Kemper, but all you Kemper-loving guys have got me really thinking about it. What do you think, Johnkenn ? Still glad you've got your fourth (?) one? Mark, the IR loader would work. That's basically what I'm doing with the Torpedo when you go line in instead of amp in. With a cab IR, you'll want to bypass the "cab" part of the Kemper profile. You can try it, but it always sounds better to me with it off using a third party cab and mic IR. You get surprising results swapping cab profiles inside the Kemper also. It's a mystery to me how the Kemper decides which part of the guitar input-vs.-amp/speaker and mic output differential that the Kemper listens for in creating a profile, is assigned to what the cabinet and mic are contributing. But it's plausible and switchable. Also, you could just monitor the IR track when recording, unless you want another variable till mix time. I like to get a sound and commit to it when it goes into the DAW. You can always overdub another track with a different sound if need be. A big plus recording with a Kemper is it's so damm convenient.
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 23, 2018 0:56:18 GMT -6
So I'm actually considering getting a Kemper to try out for recording (not live). Presumably, I could do what you're suggesting, Don, but with an IR loader in plugin form (for recording). That is, I could have a cab selected on the Kemper "main output" to take to the studio board for monitoring live, and take the "direct output" with no cab selected to my interface, and then choose a cab from one of the many IR loader plugins available. Would that work? Ugh, I can't believe I'm considering getting a Kemper, but all you Kemper-loving guys have got me really thinking about it. What do you think, Johnkenn ? Still glad you've got your fourth (?) one? Mark, the IR loader would work. That's basically what I'm doing with the Torpedo when you go line in instead of amp in. With a cab IR, you'll want to bypass the "cab" part of the Kemper profile. You can try it, but it always sounds better to me with it off using a third party cab and mic IR. You get surprising results swapping cab profiles inside the Kemper also. It's a mystery to me how the Kemper decides which part of the guitar input-vs.-amp/speaker and mic output differential that the Kemper listens for in creating a profile, is assigned to what the cabinet and mic are contributing. But it's plausible and switchable. Also, you could just monitor the IR track when recording, unless you want another variable till mix time. I like to get a sound and commit to it when it goes into the DAW. You can always overdub another track with a different sound if need be. A big plus recording with a Kemper is it's so damm convenient. Thanks for this, Don! That's super helpful. I like to eliminate as many variables as feasible during tracking, but my thought process is that if I use external IRs for cabinets, I would either have to buy a Two Notes style product to hear it live, or listen back through my DAW and deal with the latency. I don't want to deal with the latency anymore. That's one of the reasons I quit using sims a few years back and started playing real amps again. The "third way" would be to record both with the Kemper cab on AND off at the same time. Then if I wanted to try out different cabs, I could do it at the mix stage. Or if the Kemper on its own was good enough on a given take, I could just use that recording. This is intriguing. I *might* just go for it...
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Dec 23, 2018 4:51:26 GMT -6
You guys are killing me..... note to self.....buy a kemper..... LOL Any profiles that are must haves? The MB profiles are the best I’ve used. If I ever sell completely out, my Kemper will be the last piece of gear to go.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 23, 2018 5:09:43 GMT -6
If you have an amp why wouldn't you think about the Ua OX as well ? Hell Eric Johnson is using like 10 of them and what he doesn't know about tone, guitars and recording : you don't need to know ?
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Post by lcr on Dec 23, 2018 6:12:12 GMT -6
He thinks eveready batteries sound the best.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 23, 2018 8:50:57 GMT -6
If you have an amp why wouldn't you think about the Ua OX as well ? Hell Eric Johnson is using like 10 of them and what he doesn't know about tone, guitars and recording : you don't need to know ? How does that compare in DSP to the Axe FX III? I was really impressed by the sounds of the FXIII and the DSP to run effects in this video. The lack of DSP is what is turning me off from the Apollo for guitar sounds. I'd rather find a sound and commit than be in a platform where I could run out of DSP and then have to add effects during the mixing stage.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 23, 2018 9:13:21 GMT -6
I don't have an apollo OX but I really don't think lack of ua dsp is an issue as ox apparently runs its own and the new X apollos have 6 onboard chips ?
Drew can chime in and really give you ox goods !
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 23, 2018 9:17:52 GMT -6
The axe seems impressive except the you need a friggin IT degree to run it: I just want to turn my amp on and go:)
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 23, 2018 10:28:02 GMT -6
If you have an amp why wouldn't you think about the Ua OX as well ? Hell Eric Johnson is using like 10 of them and what he doesn't know about tone, guitars and recording : you don't need to know ? How does that compare in DSP to the Axe FX III? I was really impressed by the sounds of the FXIII and the DSP to run effects in this video. The lack of DSP is what is turning me off from the Apollo for guitar sounds. I'd rather find a sound and commit than be in a platform where I could run out of DSP and then have to add effects during the mixing stage. That’s really impressive. Never tried the Axe. The consensus has been that the Kemper sounded better for crunch tones, but man that sounds amazing.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 23, 2018 13:14:20 GMT -6
The axe seems impressive except the you need a friggin IT degree to run it: I just want to turn my amp on and go:) At the video at 1:50 it seems pretty easy to audition four different amps A-B-C-D and I would be surprised if you can't set up banks of 4 for your different needs for different styles. I don't know how hard it is to set up one bank of four, but doubt anybody here would have a problem. This is really cool when you're setting up multi guitar parts wanting different tones for different song styles, John Mayer/Steely Dan's jazz phase/Blue Oyster Cult!! I'm sure the Kemper does it as well, but it seems like a nice box with a lot of DSP.
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Post by donr on Dec 23, 2018 14:13:53 GMT -6
Mark, the IR loader would work. That's basically what I'm doing with the Torpedo when you go line in instead of amp in. With a cab IR, you'll want to bypass the "cab" part of the Kemper profile. You can try it, but it always sounds better to me with it off using a third party cab and mic IR. You get surprising results swapping cab profiles inside the Kemper also. It's a mystery to me how the Kemper decides which part of the guitar input-vs.-amp/speaker and mic output differential that the Kemper listens for in creating a profile, is assigned to what the cabinet and mic are contributing. But it's plausible and switchable. Also, you could just monitor the IR track when recording, unless you want another variable till mix time. I like to get a sound and commit to it when it goes into the DAW. You can always overdub another track with a different sound if need be. A big plus recording with a Kemper is it's so damm convenient. Thanks for this, Don! That's super helpful. I like to eliminate as many variables as feasible during tracking, but my thought process is that if I use external IRs for cabinets, I would either have to buy a Two Notes style product to hear it live, or listen back through my DAW and deal with the latency. I don't want to deal with the latency anymore. That's one of the reasons I quit using sims a few years back and started playing real amps again. The "third way" would be to record both with the Kemper cab on AND off at the same time. Then if I wanted to try out different cabs, I could do it at the mix stage. Or if the Kemper on its own was good enough on a given take, I could just use that recording. This is intriguing. I *might* just go for it... Mark, why would you ever monitor through the DAW except for VI's? I don't. Doesn't your interface have no latency monitoring of inputed tracks? You could record direct guitar, complete profile and cab-less profile simultaneously on three tracks with the Kemper, and monitor whichever you prefer in your interface mixer. The joy of Kemper is having killer amp tone at normal DAW monitoring levels. Same with your real amp and a Two-Notes Torpedo, or UAD OX, or AxeFX. The only thing you miss is the feedback/sustain of your guitar next to a blisteringly loud amp. As for comparing Kemper to our own amps and mics and rooms, who has tried profiling their own best real setups into a Kemper, and a/b'ing them? An amp in a room is always going to sound more "real" than a Kemper coming out of your monitors. But is the DAW recording of the real amp on your monitors better than the Kemper profile of the same amp and setup? Not in my experience. The profile isn't finished until you can't hear the difference between the amp and the profile going back and forth.
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 23, 2018 14:59:25 GMT -6
I'm hoping to do some Kemper profiles of my own with my Metroplex Marshall Plexi and some of my Dr Z. amps. This is something I just haven't had time for yet, and I am still looking for a couple used 2x12 cabinets.
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