ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 24, 2018 16:06:40 GMT -6
The former monitor guy in me hates personal mixing systems but more and more acts I have worked with or respect and sound companies I respect tell me IEM and personal mix systems are the standard. Even with IEM’s the mixes are not set and forget, you need to be able to tweet and grab if something goes wrong so having a controller in front of each performer makes the most sense. An X32/ M32 system is probably going to be the most common mid level console so an X32 rack makes sense with their personal mix controllers the split is a cat five cable, go look at the manual and how their system works. It’s cheap and works well. Of course if you play a venue that has an analog system the cat5 split won't work at all.... No but as I stated earlier in the thread if you have an SR provider bring in mains they can and should provide the analog split if needed.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 24, 2018 22:02:21 GMT -6
Of course if you play a venue that has an analog system the cat5 split won't work at all.... Be easy enough to bring your own x32 with you everywhere. Or the producer one that is smaller. Even the ipad mixer is powerful enough that if you said, tough shit to the tech, use this. They would be fine to mix the show. Has happened to me before when i was running FOH at some festivals. But was the Mackie one..which I didn't like as much as the X32 ipad setup...not that I like mixing on an ipad period..but still. House techs often do not react well to a-hole musicians telling them "Tough shit." Especially if they show up wanting to rewire the system. Which is pretty much the definition of an a-hole musician to most house techs.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 24, 2018 22:04:08 GMT -6
Of course if you play a venue that has an analog system the cat5 split won't work at all.... No but as I stated earlier in the thread if you have an SR provider bring in mains they can and should provide the analog split if needed. Who's paying for this outside sound?
The venue?
Is it Christmas?
If you're OK with paying for it - and it has been cleared in advance with the house tech crew - then fine.
(Not you, Eric - the OP's band, of course.)
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 24, 2018 23:48:58 GMT -6
Be easy enough to bring your own x32 with you everywhere. Or the producer one that is smaller. Even the ipad mixer is powerful enough that if you said, tough shit to the tech, use this. They would be fine to mix the show. Has happened to me before when i was running FOH at some festivals. But was the Mackie one..which I didn't like as much as the X32 ipad setup...not that I like mixing on an ipad period..but still. House techs often do not react well to a-hole musicians telling them "Tough shit." Especially if they show up wanting to rewire the system. Which is pretty much the definition of an a-hole musician to most house techs. eh maybe. But if a rider is a normal thing then you just include that in your rider. The venue comes back with "we don't have that" and you reply no problem we will bring our own system. Easy peasy.
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Post by christopher on Sept 25, 2018 8:20:46 GMT -6
The pro solution I saw was the monitor mixer is put in a rack case that is either put on stage near the drumset (analog monitor mixer so the band can adjust), or side of stage when digital came along. The rack had a custom wiring job with a passive analog split. Then mics go into that rack XLR panel first, the split fed the IEM mixer and also analog outputs... rather than explain the setup every time to house guys (that would get old fast), we brought our own stage boxes and ran all mics into our stage boxes which fed the IEM mixer. We then carefully patched the analog split outputs into the house stage boxes, or direct into their monitor mixer if that was easier for them. The passive split outputs would ideally be on an ELCO snake with an XLR fanout for fastest patching. Then bring along a spreadsheet printout of what is on each channel 1-24, hand that to the FOH guy. This setup did require a team effort, but we could be setup in less than 10 minutes, the band was ready go and could go to any stage.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 25, 2018 12:16:46 GMT -6
House techs often do not react well to a-hole musicians telling them "Tough shit." Especially if they show up wanting to rewire the system. Which is pretty much the definition of an a-hole musician to most house techs. eh maybe. But if a rider is a normal thing then you just include that in your rider. The venue comes back with "we don't have that" and you reply no problem we will bring our own system. Easy peasy. That wprks fine IF you're playing venues that are used to dealing with tech riders. However I've seen many cases of smaller, less professional venues where the manager or other person who gets the mail, looks at the rider, says "what's this?" and files it in the big stack of ignored papers and it never gets to the house engineer. Then come show day there's a big finger-pointing kertfuffle.
The OP says they'll be playing a wide range of venues, from tiny clubs with postage stamp stages up through festivals. That's a wide range of situations to be dealing with. In the case of larger venues that have their own onstage monitor mixer I think it would be wiser to go with the house system, perhaps driving your own in-ears. In such situation establishing good communications in advance is key. Most bands don't bother with this. When I was technical chief for a series of small punk festivals in SF a few years ago I alsways sent out requests for tech riders and stage plots and was lucky to get a hand scribbled stage plot back. I don't think I ever received a proper tech rider. If you're doing festivals you need to remember that in most cases stage changeover times are going to be very tight and there will not be time for any extensive changes to the stage monitoring system.
On smaller shows the same thing often applies - there will likely not be time for an extensive changeover of the monitor system unless you're the headliner and have a lot of pull with the management. Most smaller venues that I've worked schedule 20 to 30 minute changeovers - that's split between the band exiting and the band loading on to the stage. Much longer than that and the audience is likely to start getting restless.
I really don't mean to be a wet blanket, but this is based on quite a bit of experience doing club shows of all sizes and quite a few small festival shows, as well as big, arena level extravaganzas. It would be nice if all club shows were like The Fillmore and all area shows and festivals were like Day On The Green, but the sad truth is that they often are not. On the big shows youi don't need to worry much, it's covered. On the small shows more often than not trying to interface your own monitor system with the club PA will present problems.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 25, 2018 12:21:45 GMT -6
The pro solution I saw was the monitor mixer is put in a rack case that is either put on stage near the drumset (analog monitor mixer so the band can adjust), or side of stage when digital came along. The rack had a custom wiring job with a passive analog split. Then mics go into that rack XLR panel first, the split fed the IEM mixer and also analog outputs... rather than explain the setup every time to house guys (that would get old fast), we brought our own stage boxes and ran all mics into our stage boxes which fed the IEM mixer. We then carefully patched the analog split outputs into the house stage boxes, or direct into their monitor mixer if that was easier for them. The passive split outputs would ideally be on an ELCO snake with an XLR fanout for fastest patching. Then bring along a spreadsheet printout of what is on each channel 1-24, hand that to the FOH guy. This setup did require a team effort, but we could be setup in less than 10 minutes, the band was ready go and could go to any stage. That's the way to do it if you're dealing primarily with venues that have a reasonable level of professionalism - and there aren't other acts on the bill, or at least more than one other act - and if you're the headliner.
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Post by stormymondays on Sept 25, 2018 13:13:59 GMT -6
Lots of great info and opinions - thank you all!
I think bringing a whole X32 system for the board and monitors could be a doable approach. A changeover would entail repatching 24 XLR cables. Not the end of the world if it’s agreed and prepared in advance.
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Post by stormymondays on Sept 25, 2018 14:25:31 GMT -6
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Post by formatcyes on Sept 25, 2018 15:17:04 GMT -6
X32 rack mount along with all your monitor amps all in one box. If you have drums and acoustic instruments its a big ask for monitoring. I gave up on IEM's they just require to much maintenance and have to many issues. When they are all working they are the best but not worth the effort IMHO. Digital mixers are game changers.
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 26, 2018 5:15:20 GMT -6
Yeah tbh, maybe I'm just way more small-fry than the other gigging musicians here, but in most venues in the system config is going to be set and it probably sucks and getting into it will just make the evening more difficult. You'd need to be a band with a crew who told them in advance and could work extremely fast and had prepared the setup as best as possible, like christopher described. Showing up, as the headline band, with your own mics and a few decent speakers and saying "hey we like to use our own monitors and mics if that's cool? We like to stick with the same onstage setup for comfort. The rest of bands on the night can use them too of course" would be the most realistic situation to me and accomplish 75% of what you want. Just bypass the kick-mic for the 10 minutes thing and insist, politely, on going over onstage sound first before doing front of house. As for communicating with the venue - how many venues even read riders anyway? it usually gets sent to someone who's meant to pass it on to whoever is working that night who either receives it an hour before the show or simply doesn't get it.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 26, 2018 11:18:32 GMT -6
X32 rack mount along with all your monitor amps all in one box. If you have drums and acoustic instruments its a big ask for monitoring. I gave up on IEM's they just require to much maintenance and have to many issues. When they are all working they are the best but not worth the effort IMHO. Digital mixers are game changers. Have you actually tried to do stage monitors on a digital mixer, especially a rack mount mixer that requires mixing from a pad, moving throuigh multiple screens to get to the channel you need to work on RIGHT NOW? Especially for an act that combines a 4 piece rock band with assorted acoustic instruments?
Such mixers can be OK for FOH, where you rarely have to do immediate emergency changes, but monitors are an entirely different game.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 26, 2018 11:25:30 GMT -6
X32 rack mount along with all your monitor amps all in one box. If you have drums and acoustic instruments its a big ask for monitoring. I gave up on IEM's they just require to much maintenance and have to many issues. When they are all working they are the best but not worth the effort IMHO. Digital mixers are game changers. Have you actually tried to do stage monitors on a digital mixer, especially a rack mount mixer that requires mixing from a pad, moving throuigh multiple screens to get to the channel you need to work on RIGHT NOW? Especially for an act that combines a 4 piece rock band with assorted acoustic instruments?
Such mixers can be OK for FOH, where you rarely have to do immediate emergency changes, but monitors are an entirely different game.
I have. Its great. For sound check you walk up to each guy and ask what he wants. Stand there with them in front of the monitor so you can hear it. Set it up right. Done. Easy to adjust as needed after that in my experience..
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Post by formatcyes on Sept 26, 2018 14:45:15 GMT -6
X32 rack mount along with all your monitor amps all in one box. If you have drums and acoustic instruments its a big ask for monitoring. I gave up on IEM's they just require to much maintenance and have to many issues. When they are all working they are the best but not worth the effort IMHO. Digital mixers are game changers. Have you actually tried to do stage monitors on a digital mixer, especially a rack mount mixer that requires mixing from a pad, moving throuigh multiple screens to get to the channel you need to work on RIGHT NOW? Especially for an act that combines a 4 piece rock band with assorted acoustic instruments?
Such mixers can be OK for FOH, where you rarely have to do immediate emergency changes, but monitors are an entirely different game.
Yes my setup is an 18 channel Xair with separate mixes for the talent. It is fantastic I have a couple of ipads leave one on stage (its set so the artists can only change their monitor mixes) and they do their thing. Stops the more me problem as each one can have as much "me" as they want. Digital mixes have so many pages because of what you can do gates, compresses, eq, multiple effects etc, on every channel just awesome the power. Once they are set levels are all run from the main screen easy as.
Once you go digital you will not go back.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 26, 2018 16:45:18 GMT -6
Have you actually tried to do stage monitors on a digital mixer, especially a rack mount mixer that requires mixing from a pad, moving throuigh multiple screens to get to the channel you need to work on RIGHT NOW? Especially for an act that combines a 4 piece rock band with assorted acoustic instruments?
Such mixers can be OK for FOH, where you rarely have to do immediate emergency changes, but monitors are an entirely different game.
Yes my setup is an 18 channel Xair with separate mixes for the talent. It is fantastic I have a couple of ipads leave one on stage (its set so the artists can only change their monitor mixes) and they do their thing. Stops the more me problem as each one can have as much "me" as they want. Digital mixes have so many pages because of what you can do gates, compresses, eq, multiple effects etc, on every channel just awesome the power. Once they are set levels are all run from the main screen easy as.
Once you go digital you will not go back. Umm it’s once you go XL3 you will never go back 😎 Everybody I know who mixes one nighters or festivals still would rather have an analog wedge desk!
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 26, 2018 16:55:57 GMT -6
Have you actually tried to do stage monitors on a digital mixer, especially a rack mount mixer that requires mixing from a pad, moving throuigh multiple screens to get to the channel you need to work on RIGHT NOW? Especially for an act that combines a 4 piece rock band with assorted acoustic instruments?
Such mixers can be OK for FOH, where you rarely have to do immediate emergency changes, but monitors are an entirely different game.
Yes my setup is an 18 channel Xair with separate mixes for the talent. It is fantastic I have a couple of ipads leave one on stage (its set so the artists can only change their monitor mixes) and they do their thing. Stops the more me problem as each one can have as much "me" as they want. Digital mixes have so many pages because of what you can do gates, compresses, eq, multiple effects etc, on every channel just awesome the power. Once they are set levels are all run from the main screen easy as. Yeah, sure - until something unexpected happens or your screen freezes, etc, etc. Then you're scrambling all over yourself trtying to get to where you need to be while chaos runs rampant in the monitors. Uncontrolled feedback, somebody's mix went dead, etc, etc.
I'm not making this stuff up, neither was Eric - it happens. It happens a LOT more than it does with a proper analog rig where you simply reach out and twist a knob or slide a fader, no frantically searching for the right page, no trying to figure out why the damn pad is frozen on the wrong screen, none of that nonsense.
Sure, you've got all your processing onboard. That's very nice and convenient for setup and it's cheap. It's NOT convenient when something goes wrong on stage. You can't just reach out a hand and adjust something - you have to call it up first, and in the world of onstage monitor mixing every second counts.
There's also the small matter that you don't get to select your processors on the small all-in-one digital rigs.
The name of the game in onstage monitors is not "how convienient things are when it's going right", it's "How FAST are YOU when things go wrong?"
About that "More Me" problem - the last thing you want is for individual musicians to give themselves as much "ME" as they want - that's the road to uncontrollable feedback. More often than not the solution to their problem is NOT to let them turn themselves up - the solution is to TURN EVERYTHING ELSE DOWN in their mix. The sad truth is that 95% of musicians don't have the foggiest idea how to adjust monitors, even their own, and the majority are resistant to learning.
Sorry, no. I'll bring my own analog rig before I'll use a damn digital box. I've seen too many problems with them.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 26, 2018 20:50:35 GMT -6
Yes my setup is an 18 channel Xair with separate mixes for the talent. It is fantastic I have a couple of ipads leave one on stage (its set so the artists can only change their monitor mixes) and they do their thing. Stops the more me problem as each one can have as much "me" as they want. Digital mixes have so many pages because of what you can do gates, compresses, eq, multiple effects etc, on every channel just awesome the power. Once they are set levels are all run from the main screen easy as. Yeah, sure - until something unexpected happens or your screen freezes, etc, etc. Then you're scrambling all over yourself trtying to get to where you need to be while chaos runs rampant in the monitors. Uncontrolled feedback, somebody's mix went dead, etc, etc.
I'm not making this stuff up, neither was Eric - it happens. It happens a LOT more than it does with a proper analog rig where you simply reach out and twist a knob or slide a fader, no frantically searching for the right page, no trying to figure out why the damn pad is frozen on the wrong screen, none of that nonsense.
Sure, you've got all your processing onboard. That's very nice and convenient for setup and it's cheap. It's NOT convenient when something goes wrong on stage. You can't just reach out a hand and adjust something - you have to call it up first, and in the world of onstage monitor mixing every second counts.
There's also the small matter that you don't get to select your processors on the small all-in-one digital rigs.
The name of the game in onstage monitors is not "how convienient things are when it's going right", it's "How FAST are YOU when things go wrong?"
About that "More Me" problem - the last thing you want is for individual musicians to give themselves as much "ME" as they want - that's the road to uncontrollable feedback. More often than not the solution to their problem is NOT to let them turn themselves up - the solution is to TURN EVERYTHING ELSE DOWN in their mix. The sad truth is that 95% of musicians don't have the foggiest idea how to adjust monitors, even their own, and the majority are resistant to learning.
Sorry, no. I'll bring my own analog rig before I'll use a damn digital box. I've seen too many problems with them.
Yep first rule of monitors up means everything else down! John I think one difference is you and high have mixed wedges on way more one nighters and festivals , guys running around who think they are a combination of Roger Daltry, Diamond Dave as Iggy Pop. We have saved the day by grabbing the Graphic, rotary or fader before anybody could even guess the shit could hit the fan. I get the attraction to small format digital the power the presets but still in the trenches give me an XL3.
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Post by christopher on Sept 26, 2018 22:32:38 GMT -6
Oh man you guys are triggering my PTSD ! That's why I think IEM if you want your own mix. I can only imagine when the cellist can't hear themselves in their own wedge over the drumset, start dialing in some EQ boosts.. Bigger stages it should be way easier to deal with as the walls and ceiling are farther away, but if you are at that level it's time to pay a dedicated monitor guy IMO. The biggest problem I would run into traveling around is that every room is different with different nodes. And smaller untreated places are tough, bringing your own wedges and ringing everything out. Little bars or rented spaces.. Trying to get acoustic guitar over the kit was hard, I'd spend the whole show often just trying to get it better, digital boards and processing included.. In ears you don't have to worry about that. Also at the actual venues almost every house guy swears the nodes are rung out perfectly in their system, "don't have to touch the graphics" (but sometimes you get an old timer who just laughs and says have fun twist whatever you want I'm out.. cause he knows.. the beast is never really tamed). Being able to zap a freq in an instant was like part of maybe every show ever lol? In ears were handy for that stuff.. Not perfect though, often they lost wireless signal and cause a mild panic for a song or two. I try to envision it working .. Maybe bands that play quieter can get away with running their own wedges? That would be great if so..
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 26, 2018 23:21:04 GMT -6
Oh man you guys are triggering my PTSD ! That's why I think IEM if you want your own mix. I can only imagine when the cellist can't hear themselves in their own wedge over the drumset, start dialing in some EQ boosts.. Bigger stages it should be way easier to deal with as the walls and ceiling are farther away, but if you are at that level it's time to pay a dedicated monitor guy IMO. The biggest problem I would run into traveling around is that every room is different with different nodes. And smaller untreated places are tough, bringing your own wedges and ringing everything out. Little bars or rented spaces.. Trying to get acoustic guitar over the kit was hard, I'd spend the whole show often just trying to get it better, digital boards and processing included.. In ears you don't have to worry about that. Also at the actual venues almost every house guy swears the nodes are rung out perfectly in their system, "don't have to touch the graphics" (but sometimes you get an old timer who just laughs and says have fun twist whatever you want I'm out.. cause he knows.. the beast is never really tamed). Being able to zap a freq in an instant was like part of maybe every show ever lol? In ears were handy for that stuff.. Not perfect though, often they lost wireless signal and cause a mild panic for a song or two. I try to envision it working .. Maybe bands that play quieter can get away with running their own wedges? That would be great if so.. The thing is, you can never really get away with running your own wedges because you're always playing at the time adjustments need done. At best you're guessing, and that's not a very good "best" - more often than not it's worse. You really need a dedicated monitor engineer.
As far as house systems that are "pre-rung" are concerned, it generally doesn't work because every time the mics or the wedges get moved your basic setting changes. The best you can do is run two sets of graphics - one set up for a "default" ring out that is kinda average for the typical kinds of acts you get, locked down behind panels, and another set out where visiting (or not so visiting) engineers can reach them for addiotional adjustments. If things get totally bollixed by some monkey you can simply switch those out to return to default. DriveRacks are pretty good for your default baseline settings. Or, if you really want to be sneaky about it the "monkey graphics" can be dummies that aren't really connected, depending on the quality of monkeys you usually have to deal with.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 26, 2018 23:32:32 GMT -6
This thread is giving me flashbacks of doing monitors for a very young and inexperienced Camper Van Beethoven, either two mixes from FOH or from a 3 mix monitor desk at stageside, back in the early '80s...
Musicians constantly switching off instruments and positions almost every song...
There was a VERY early, pre-90s version of Brian Jonestown Massacre* that were pretty, um, "interesting" as well.
* - So early, in fact, that the Wikipedia article totally ignores their existance......
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Post by stormymondays on Sept 27, 2018 1:48:04 GMT -6
Let me talk some heresy here. I'd much rather hear a non-eq'd wedge at a lower volume than the usual ringed out wedge. There has been many a time where I asked if it was possible to hear the wedge without EQ for a minute. Even the monitor tech was surprised at the result...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 27, 2018 6:40:15 GMT -6
Let me talk some heresy here. I'd much rather hear a non-eq'd wedge at a lower volume than the usual ringed out wedge. There has been many a time where I asked if it was possible to hear the wedge without EQ for a minute. Even the monitor tech was surprised at the result... Part of the problem today is so many active wedges and rigs using digital drive racks is the wedge is voiced after the graphic. Everybody blames this on Meyers but the Meyer System EQ’d the box flat and protected the drivers that were built to offer a specific phase response. Others like a mix of different wedges on stage giving all different kinds of response. As for the mains EQ’s my trick was to use a parametric for tuning and hose curve and then a Graphic that was modded to only offer 6 dB of boost and cut for the FOH guy. It also made it very easy to simply set the system back for the next act or simply hit bypass if the band guy screwed the pooche.
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