|
Post by stormymondays on Aug 19, 2018 8:25:14 GMT -6
I do not mean this as a criticism of anyone, but is the “hit or miss” thing (that’s become sort of Forum Lore) based on actual user experience or on the occasional allegations of sacrosanct commentators like Klaus Heyne? Again. Not throwing stones, just curious. I think I’ve only sung through two different U87Ai, and both were stellar. The one time I rented out a U67 (back in 2002) it sounded heavenly. No idea if it was well maintained or not but it delivered.
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Aug 19, 2018 9:15:41 GMT -6
I was underwhelmed by my U87ai experience. I expected the holy grail of sound, but didn't find it to beat out my Peluso 2247LE in many singers. Perhaps it was faulty, as I didn't buy it new and used it when I was partnering with another guy for a year. I can understand that it may be necessary for a studio for the name, but my experience using it was not a flagship moment in terms of performance.
|
|
|
Post by timcampbell on Aug 19, 2018 10:02:26 GMT -6
Not all U87ai's are created equal. I have an early ai that I like more than all the vintage U87's I've had over the years. I wouldn't choose it for vocals over my U47 but there are sources it sounds better on and I can always get a professional take with it on vocals also. As has been said on this forum by others the Gefell UM70 and it's variants sound great.
|
|
|
Post by Vincent R. on Aug 19, 2018 15:02:21 GMT -6
I'll be honest, every microphone recommended here could really work in your genre and as your flagship microphone. I have a few questions to pose for you before I could really recommend anything.
1. Are you looking to have one very recognizable microphone for clients to see and be impressed by that of course sounds great, or just one very versatile microphone that sounds great on a lot of sources? 2. What is your aesthetic as a producer/engineer?
#2 is probably the most important question to ask yourself. If you like things more on the vibey vintage side, then look at the FleA 47, FleA 49, or some incarnation of the U67 (Reissue, Stam, Bock). The U87ai and the Chandler REDD both have an in between modern/vintage sounds. The REDD in low contour is a bit like a beefy 251, while in normal mode its a bit like a U47 with more air in the top. The U87 has a more modern sound, but remains a bit more neutral. Reading your posts it sounds like you really like the U67 sound. You even have a couple of 67ish mics. If I were you I'd find your U67. Get the Reissue if you want a great vocal mic and a show piece. If you just want a great sound, Bock has one coming out for $1000 cheaper than the reissue, Stam's should be out to more people in the fall including you hopefully, or you could even reach out the Shannon to custom build something for you. There are options. Assuming you go all out on a U67 you still have a couple of 67ish mics you could sell to get some other sonic options.
-The U87i and U87ai are subtly different. We all know that that subtlety can be a huge thing on the wrong voice. I personally prefer the U87i except on voice over where I think the AI really shines. Either is a very nice workhorse, but it leans toward the brighter more modern side of things. I recorded my first album with one and my wife's voice loves a U87. In my own studio I have preferred the U87 on pop or RnB vocals and acoustic guitar. -The Chandler is cool, because it's NEW. Its a new sound creeping up in a lot of studios. That could be an edge as a show piece. It also has two modes making it very versatile. -The U67 is a favorite of mine and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't biased. I've been chasing that mic for a while now. I found the MK67 a bit on the dark side, Advanced Audio CM67LE w/vintage mod was nice for the price, but lacked a little bit of detail and bottom end, as budget mics do. These days I'm using a BLUE B11 cap with my Bottle Rocket Stage II. I'm recording a concept album for a new musical with it as my main vocal mic. It sounds awesome.
In my own studio these days I put out my FleA 49, U87ai, and Bottle Rocket II with either the B11 or B7 caps (I have the B6 & B0 too, but my aesthetic is more warm & vintage). Those are my go to mics at the start of a project. Personally, I like the Blue System, which I know gets a mixed reviews around here, more than my U87ai. The B7 is never going to beat out a good U47 clone and the same goes for the B11 and U67, etc, but as an extra mic to have around it's pretty cool. If you want to impress and are interested in the BLUE system, the big Bottle is a huge and cool looking mic, and the B6, B7, and B11 caps cover a lot of bases. I will also say if the M49 or U47 are what you are leaning toward, FleA mics are incredible. Whenever I had rock guys in my studio I used to reach for my Peluso 2247 SE. jtc111 's FleA 47 just rocked my mind when I first heard it. It's what really aimed me at their 49 which I love on a lot of sources.
|
|
|
Post by stormymondays on Aug 19, 2018 15:34:58 GMT -6
Lots of interesting replies! And Vincent R. thanks for getting quite into detail, very useful - I'll reply in more detail myself tomorrow. I'm leaning towards warm and vintage and I am the primary client although when clients come by I also want to impress. I've been also considering Flea, maybe the 48 because I really want a figure 8 option.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Aug 19, 2018 17:13:11 GMT -6
Today prior to tracking I shootout a Flea 47, Bock 251, Coles 4038 and a Neumann U77 on someone I can't mention except to say he does a great Johnny Cash impersonation and formally fronted a band named after a 1951 novel by Nicholas Monsarrat.
The Flea 47 and Bock have both been used previously but this time my money is on either the Coles or the Neumann U77 (since it was refurbished by Gunter Wagner) even though they are very different.
Today's test will solidify my opinion on which of these is my flagship vocal mic at least in this context although I already know which is the most versatile.
And that has to be the deciding factor if you are picking just one mic to be your 'flagship' vocal mic so-to-speak.
It doesn't mean it will be the best in all situations, that is impossible, but it has to be consistantly good across the board and basically never sound bad or wrong while allowing some fine tuning to make the end result still very desirable.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Aug 19, 2018 20:23:41 GMT -6
Just to be clear . . .
The Neumann U87 is the OK-EST microphone around. It sounds good on just about everything, and when the stars are aligned and the tide is in, and the skies are clear, and Venus is in the something-something house, and world peace is a possibility, it'll sound sorta great on something. Occasionally.
It is not a Holy Grail. Now, the U67 just might be. But it has to get in line behind the 251, C12, M269, and C414EB
|
|
|
Post by aremos on Aug 19, 2018 20:50:49 GMT -6
Just to be clear . . . The Neumann U87 is the OK-EST microphone around. It sounds good on just about everything, and when the stars are aligned and the tide is in, and the skies are clear, and Venus is in the something-something house, and world peace is a possibility, it'll sound sorta great on something. Occasionally...
You're really giving the U87 too much credit
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 19, 2018 20:53:33 GMT -6
Today prior to tracking I shootout a Flea 47, Bock 251, Coles 4038 and a Neumann U77 on someone I can't mention except to say he does a great Johnny Cash impersonation and formally fronted a band named after a 1951 novel by Nicholas Monsarrat. The Flea 47 and Bock have both been used previously but this time my money is on either the Coles or the Neumann U77 (since it was refurbished by Gunter Wagner) even though they are very different. Today's test will solidify my opinion on which of these is my flagship vocal mic at least in this context although I already know which is the most versatile. And that has to be the deciding factor if you are picking just one mic to be your 'flagship' vocal mic so-to-speak. It doesn't mean it will be the best in all situations, that is impossible, but it has to be consistantly good across the board and basically never sound bad or wrong while allowing some fine tuning to make the end result still very desirable. Funny, I just did a vocal session and the brief was they wanted a Nick Cave, and your guy type vocal... I would think the coles would fly on him. Only ever saw him once, opening for the Stones. cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 19, 2018 20:55:14 GMT -6
Just to be clear . . . The Neumann U87 is the OK-EST microphone around. It sounds good on just about everything, and when the stars are aligned and the tide is in, and the skies are clear, and Venus is in the something-something house, and world peace is a possibility, it'll sound sorta great on something. Occasionally. It is not a Holy Grail. Now, the U67 just might be. But it has to get in line behind the 251, C12, M269, and C414EB When I was at Shannons place, he let me sing through the holy trinity... U47, 251 and a U67... all belonging to some serious heavy weight artists.. He asked me what i thought of the 67, I said "sounds a lot like my U87, but tube-ish" 8) cheers Wiz
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,941
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Aug 19, 2018 20:56:18 GMT -6
Just to be clear . . . The Neumann U87 is the OK-EST microphone around. It sounds good on just about everything, and when the stars are aligned and the tide is in, and the skies are clear, and Venus is in the something-something house, and world peace is a possibility, it'll sound sorta great on something. Occasionally. It is not a Holy Grail. Now, the U67 just might be. But it has to get in line behind the 251, C12, M269, and C414EB You forgot the M49 in the holy grail mics and the U47!
|
|
|
Post by yotonic on Aug 19, 2018 21:34:08 GMT -6
You don't need the stars to align to get a great vocal out of a U87. I know Richard Orshoff and that was his go to vocal mic on Jackson Browne, James Taylor, and others coming out of a seminal time in rock in the 70s. You just need someone who can actually sing and has talent. In my experience (I work in the music business) that is rare. "In general" the artists with vocal talent go to New York, LA, Nashville to record and chase the ring. Most of what is left is painfully average. This isn't meant as a downer. But guys (singers & engineers alike) looking for the "magic mic" are on a fools errand. At all ends of the music business we are swamped with mediocrity and it's a delicate balance in being supportive and still holding the line for great talent and work. (I'm not saying that you can't figure out which mic in your kit is the best fit for your local folk singer, but like a formula car you never will really know what it's capable of until you put a great driver behind it.)
|
|
|
Post by spindrift on Aug 19, 2018 22:51:51 GMT -6
I do not mean this as a criticism of anyone, but is the “hit or miss” thing (that’s become sort of Forum Lore) based on actual user experience or just on the allegations of sacrosanct commentators like Klaus Heyne? Again. Not throwing stones, just curious. Good question, I have experienced K87/67 capsules before and after having Klaus work on them. They always sound better when I get them back. Also, his observations on Neumann microphones carry a lot of weight in my world. So both for me I guess!
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Aug 20, 2018 0:14:18 GMT -6
I know it's been said before around here but... Karen Carpenter>U87(in Omni) = Heavenly! +1000 Yotonic!
Been comparing my "lesser" though good (Project Studio level)sounding K67 capsule microphones (AKG200/MXL V87 V69), to my U195-What a difference a Bock makes. It's taken some time for me to better appreciate the K67 based microphones. Chris
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Aug 20, 2018 1:07:49 GMT -6
The more I use the MaxMod 67 the more I stop thinking about other mics. The basic capture is so big and real sounding, with placement/EQ/comp/whatever-engineering I can get anything I would need out of it. I think it's gonna be here for the long run. I can't really imagine a better tool for a sort of 'main' LDC.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,941
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Aug 20, 2018 7:35:05 GMT -6
You don't need the stars to align to get a great vocal out of a U87. I know Richard Orshoff and that was his go to vocal mic on Jackson Browne, James Taylor, and others coming out of a seminal time in rock in the 70s. You just need someone who can actually sing and has talent. In my experience (I work in the music business) that is rare. "In general" the artists with vocal talent go to New York, LA, Nashville to record and chase the ring. Most of what is left is painfully average. This isn't meant as a downer. But guys (singers & engineers alike) looking for the "magic mic" are on a fools errand. At all ends of the music business we are swamped with mediocrity and it's a delicate balance in being supportive and still holding the line for great talent and work. (I'm not saying that you can't figure out which mic in your kit is the best fit for your local folk singer, but like a formula car you never will really know what it's capable of until you put a great driver behind it.) I think Ward was talking about more modern AI, and yes having a talented vocalist sure helps, and the 70’s were all about performance. In the late 80’s and early 90’s things really changed, we went from a world where even small home studios had one main vocal mic to a world where every studio was trying to be Allen Sides!
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Aug 20, 2018 13:36:40 GMT -6
So they got Side tracked? Chris
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,941
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Aug 20, 2018 17:00:42 GMT -6
So they got Side tracked? Chris Welcome to our little corner of the net, I think you will fit in just fine😁
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 17:19:31 GMT -6
I do not mean this as a criticism of anyone, but is the “hit or miss” thing (that’s become sort of Forum Lore) based on actual user experience or just on the allegations of sacrosanct commentators like Klaus Heyne? Again. Not throwing stones, just curious. Could you not expand this to a lot of mic's though? Singing live for e.g. you kinda get what you're given, I've never heard a proper singer struggle to the point of no return with a wide variety of mic's.. It's kinda like Vincent on this forum, I must of watched every vid he has and not once have I said yeah that mic sucks on his voice (they all sound good?)..
I have my pref's of course (never been a massive fan of the U48 or SM7B) but if I get handed an SM58 over a U67 I'm not going to fall apart at seams. I could make it work studio or live, the bigger issue being if anyone would want to hear me sing in the first place ..!
I'm not saying the right mic choice isn't important, but it seems to me more of a technical nature (as in mic attributes) as opposed to an outright many mic's couldn't do the job well. Would bono sound better on a U67? Probably, does it matter? Probably not..
Disclaimer: This statement is based upon the mic's we are discussing aren't crap in nature, have no excess zing (as Johkenn puts it), doesn't sound like an ice pick to the ear and is of at least a somewhat decent quality..
I don't think anyone on this forum would recommend a generally bad mic, so they've been filtered out of the equation.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 20, 2018 17:44:40 GMT -6
I used a U87 every day for over ten years when I had a small studio and produced radio & TV commercials, Not once, ever, did it not work for my projects. At least 150 commercials were broadcast, with different announcers and vocalists. There was no fussing to "sit in the mix", no added sibilance, almost never did I EQ anything with it, I just used the DBX 160 to compress the final mix, and a little Lexicon reverb and delay sparsely. I probably would have liked a U67 even more, but the U87 is in 10X more studios than any other microphone for a good reason. It works for you almost every time. Like the Neumann KM84, you point it at something, and it sounds good.
So, if it's for personal use, by all means, look around, you might like any one of a dozen well made, great sounding mics. Some of the clones or "in the style of mics" that have come out recently sound great under $1,000.
But, if you want a sure thing, something that will give a client confidence, I'd suggest saving up and just grabbing a vintage U87 online. After that, have fun, play around with different mics. I heard a $49 mic last week that sounded amazing on standup bass, so you never know until you try it.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Aug 20, 2018 19:39:06 GMT -6
So they got Side tracked? Chris Yes, we're all kind of ADHD around here... present company not just 'kind of'. If you follow. Anyhow we love . . . look, a squirrel!! If I were only allowed two microphones on meager means and had that tough choice to make, it would be a U87 and a KM84. Neither a holy grail, but each always usable and really good sounding in every single aspect and application.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Aug 20, 2018 19:43:16 GMT -6
]Funny, I just did a vocal session and the brief was they wanted a Nick Cave, and your guy type vocal... I would think the coles would fly on him. Only ever saw him once, opening for the Stones. cheers I have no doubt the Coles would work but I ran with the Neumann U77 into a Mercury M72s which rounded it out nicely. The Coles will likely get a look in during vocal overdubs. The Coles needs some distance for vox (18 inches or so) and with its ability to suck in low end it can be somewhat problematic for vox while tracking drums and bass unless you have industrial strength isolation.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,941
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Aug 20, 2018 20:24:06 GMT -6
So they got Side tracked? Chris Yes, we're all kind of ADHD around here... present company not just 'kind of'. If you follow. Anyhow we love . . . look, a squirrel!! If I were only allowed two microphones on meager means and had that tough choice to make, it would be a U87 and a KM84. Neither a holy grail, but each always usable and really good sounding in every single aspect and application. Nah Gefell UM70 and KM84, but what would we do for a stereo pair ?
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,941
Member is Online
|
Post by ericn on Aug 20, 2018 20:26:55 GMT -6
]Funny, I just did a vocal session and the brief was they wanted a Nick Cave, and your guy type vocal... I would think the coles would fly on him. Only ever saw him once, opening for the Stones. cheers I have no doubt the Coles would work but I ran with the Neumann U77 into a Mercury M72s which rounded it out nicely. The Coles will likely get a look in during vocal overdubs. The Coles needs some distance for vox (18 inches or so) and with its ability to suck in low end it can be somewhat problematic for vox while tracking drums and bass unless you have industrial strength isolation. Coles while very, very special is a mic that just is not going to wow me on enough voices, that’s why would either go all out or UM70 or vintage U87 or 77, even if it doesn’t go wow it’s still not going to make me ever doubt my choice.
|
|
|
Post by yotonic on Aug 20, 2018 21:05:04 GMT -6
So they got Side tracked? Chris If I were only allowed two microphones on meager means and had that tough choice to make, it would be a U87 and a KM84. Neither a holy grail, but each always usable and really good sounding in every single aspect and application. Agreed. Check out these interesting recordings of various vintage preamps with a KM84 on guitar and a U87 on vocals. Tom Gruning is a great tech. www.gruningaudioworks.com/audio-samples/
|
|