|
Post by aremos on Feb 21, 2019 20:20:25 GMT -6
Welcome Klaus! Yes, this RGO forum is refreshing & the discussions are not only respectable but knowledgeable.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 21, 2019 21:48:46 GMT -6
Hi Klaus, it's great to have you here. My voice is most compatible with a U67. Are any of the clones or modded mics close to the real thing in your opinion? I had one of the iO Audio 67's here for a day, and it sounded like a U87 on steroids, not quite the depth and width of a vintage 67, but a Neumann for sure, and a superb mic. I like what I've heard online of the Golden Age GA-47, and I should have the Stam 67 here soon, which I think is going to be something special.
|
|
|
Post by Vincent R. on Feb 21, 2019 21:54:31 GMT -6
Thanks for joining us, klaus.
|
|
|
Post by damoongo on Feb 21, 2019 22:03:11 GMT -6
Welcome Klaus. Thanks for the great post. You are a fine gentleman. Regarding the inferior capsules of late, are we at a point where Theirsch becomes an attractive option? I know you don’t recommend his capsules, but would a reskin of a newer, bad sounding k67/870 be a worthwhile experiment?
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Feb 21, 2019 22:13:51 GMT -6
Welcome Klaus, really appreciated the thoughtful and detailed points.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,022
|
Post by ericn on Feb 21, 2019 22:18:35 GMT -6
As always to the point and informative, please come by more often. Now get back to work on that book!
|
|
|
Post by mike on Feb 21, 2019 23:10:46 GMT -6
Thanks for your informative post Klaus, I'd be interested in your thoughts comparing a Telefunken EF86 tube to a Telefunken 806-S tube and your personal tube preference for a 67 ?
Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 21, 2019 23:35:15 GMT -6
Welcome Klaus. My only regret in reading your brilliant post, is that I only had one "like" to give!
BTW At NAMM 2018, when I tried the new U67 RI, the capsule must have been overtensioned. The nearby TLM 67 smoked it. Whereas this year, the U67 reissue sounded terrific with larger than life tone. The other U67 was anemic in comparison.
After the passing of Stephen Paul, and Oliver Archut... We are particularly fortunate to have another genuine "microphone genius" contributing here and elsewhere. (I do realize you are modest about all this) Honestly, I couldn't believe some of those remarks that were made to you.
Quick question, is it typical for sibilant/breathy singers (like me) to tend to do better with the 47 FET or U67? Realistically, I may just end up with a used TLM 67 (as "my Neumann"), but I'm still curious. Thanks, Chris
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Feb 22, 2019 0:41:03 GMT -6
Thanks for posting, Klaus!
|
|
|
Post by stormymondays on Feb 22, 2019 2:39:53 GMT -6
Thank you and welcome, Klaus! I'll add to the deluge of questions: I'm going to be testing a U67 reissue in about 10 days - with the intention of buying! Are there any tell-tale signs of a "good" capsule? I've only sung through a 67 back in 2002 (I loved it!) so I can't rely on my experience too much...
|
|
klaus
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by klaus on Feb 22, 2019 2:52:24 GMT -6
If you do not feel comfortable evaluating the mic by itself in your familiar environs, and intuitively like it or don't (my criteria any day!) it would be ideal to have a Neumann mic with the same K67/870 capsule as a comparator. Never mind subtleties like transparency or high frequency response, but what's crucial is that, as you switch back and forth, you like the level of the Reissue's low end, compared to a mic with a good K67/870/87 from a period where low end was not an issue.
As Neumann's double/offset backplate designs (U67, TLM67, U87/Ai) are inherently more mid-forward, they tend to pick up sibilance sooner than, say a Neumann with the single backplate (U47/fet, M147, M149 and so on) But the great thing with the U67 is its processor, which suppresses a lot of sibilance, compared to the U87/Ai. If you were to go K870 in the cheaper solid state version (U87/TLM67) I would test the specific capsule quality first, rather than buying the mic cold, due to the afore mentioned capsule variations in the low end.
Siegfried Thiersch re-diaphragmed a K870 I had sent him a while back. I did not like the results, and he admitted it was a tall task (he is not alone in attempting the impossible: trying to recreate Neumann magic with a third-party reskin remains elusive, as far as I have experienced to date). I was just asked the same question whether a reskin is preferable to a highly tensioned stock K870. I continue to believe that even under those adverse situations, the Neumann capsule still beats all comers. The state or reskins remains pretty dire, in my subjective opinion: no excellence to be found. When you talk about a multi-thousand dollar mic, a mediocre capsule is just not an option. Besides: you pay in the end for trying to save a few bucks that way: the mic will be discounted at the sale. Exception: Thiersch's nickel jobs are very good (no wonder: he was in charge of making these capsules when he was still with MG).
My subjective opinion, and don't kill me for it: with mics you always get what you pay for. If brand x was really approaching Neumann or AKG or whatever's level of excellence, its price would be in the vicinity of prices for those originals. Not only are copies always traded at a fraction of the prices of the originals, but the copies don't seem to hold their value on the used market (check completed auction prices for a realistic assessment of microphone values).
|
|
|
Post by stormymondays on Feb 22, 2019 3:07:52 GMT -6
If you do not feel comfortable evaluating the mic by itself in your familiar environs, and intuitively like it or don't (my criteria any day!) it would be ideal to have a Neumann mic with the same K67/870 capsule as a comparator. Never mind subtleties like transparency or high frequency response, but what's crucial is that, as you switch back and forth, you like the level of the Reissue's low end, compared to a mic with a good K67/870/87 from a period where low end was not an issue. I'll be evaluating it in a studio environment but not mine, I'm travelling to London for it and will be testing a bunch of mics. Hopefully they might be able to source a vintage U87. Would comparing to a current U87Ai make any sense?
|
|
klaus
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by klaus on Feb 22, 2019 3:29:36 GMT -6
Probably not, because you want a mic as comparator whose low end has been confirmed to be solid. That cannot be reliably assessed with a current-issue U87Ai (unless, again, you had a third comparator handy, whose low end was known without a doubt).
The old adage applies: in a test situation, limit any variables to one.
In an unfamiliar studio environment there would be too many variables that would confuse you, unless there is reliable baseline.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Feb 22, 2019 5:46:43 GMT -6
Klaus retensioned my Neuman capsule a few months ago. It sounds great. His turnaround time was fast and was communicative and professional. Great experience.
Thank you sir!
|
|
|
Post by reddirt on Feb 22, 2019 6:20:48 GMT -6
We are fortunate to receive a post with that depth of knowledge; lets all respect people who bring us so much and never let this place devolve to what G.S. has become at times where professionals just won't have a bar of it.
It's a good day.
Thanks Klaus and Cheers, Guys. Ross
|
|
|
Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 22, 2019 8:49:47 GMT -6
Always a pleasure to read you, Klaus. Thanks, one more time.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,022
|
Post by ericn on Feb 22, 2019 8:56:30 GMT -6
If you do not feel comfortable evaluating the mic by itself in your familiar environs, and intuitively like it or don't (my criteria any day!) it would be ideal to have a Neumann mic with the same K67/870 capsule as a comparator. Never mind subtleties like transparency or high frequency response, but what's crucial is that, as you switch back and forth, you like the level of the Reissue's low end, compared to a mic with a good K67/870/87 from a period where low end was not an issue.
As Neumann's double/offset backplate designs (U67, TLM67, U87/Ai) are inherently more mid-forward, they tend to pick up sibilance sooner than, say a Neumann with the single backplate (U47/fet, M147, M149 and so on) But the great thing with the U67 is its processor, which suppresses a lot of sibilance, compared to the U87/Ai. If you were to go K870 in the cheaper solid state version (U87/TLM67) I would test the specific capsule quality first, rather than buying the mic cold, due to the afore mentioned capsule variations in the low end.
Siegfried Thiersch re-diaphragmed a K870 I had sent him a while back. I did not like the results, and he admitted it was a tall task (he is not alone in attempting the impossible: trying to recreate Neumann magic with a third-party reskin remains elusive, as far as I have experienced to date). I was just asked the same question whether a reskin is preferable to a highly tensioned stock K870. I continue to believe that even under those adverse situations, the Neumann capsule still beats all comers. The state or reskins remains pretty dire, in my subjective opinion: no excellence to be found. When you talk about a multi-thousand dollar mic, a mediocre capsule is just not an option. Besides: you pay in the end for trying to save a few bucks that way: the mic will be discounted at the sale. Exception: Thiersch's nickel jobs are very good (no wonder: he was in charge of making these capsules when he was still with MG).
My subjective opinion, and don't kill me for it: with mics you always get what you pay for. If brand x was really approaching Neumann or AKG or whatever's level of excellence, its price would be in the vicinity of prices for those originals. Not only are copies always traded at a fraction of the prices of the originals, but the copies don't seem to hold their value on the used market (check completed auction prices for a realistic assessment of microphone values).
Klaus Since you mentioned AKG, have you talked to anyone there to see if Samsung has any interest in returning the Marquee to greatness or are they happy to continue the mass market direction they have been on?
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 22, 2019 9:52:12 GMT -6
I can't say I disagree Klaus, although I wish the news was different. Whatever special quality is present in the original Neumann's, 47, 67, M49, has been almost impossible to replicate. There has always been one thing or another that wasn't quite great with the clones.
The Warm WA47 is one of the best mics I've heard in the price range, it's an incredible value, but it doesn't quite have all the detail a real 47 has. I have an Avantone BV-12, it sounds a lot like a C-12, which is amazing considering the price, but it's noisier because gain is a bit low. I might try to tweak it because it's really nice otherwise. The Max Mod 67 was fantastic, a true Neumann, but more of an 87 with the edges tamed by the tube than a actual 67.
I had 3 different Thiersch capsules in the Blackspade UM-17B (and R) I used to own. What a great mic that was, but still, I wasn't really that impressed with the Thiersch capsule and it was just a little light in the low end and pinched when hit hard unfortunately.
I've said it before and been taken to task, but so far, the Soyuz have been the closest thing to a world class mic I've used without a Neumann badge on it with the exception of the Chandler REDD. They sound different than the 67 and 87 but are in a similar tone zone as the Neumann's. The Chandler REDD was clearly a monster the second you plugged it in. That has the most similar effect to a great Neumann I've heard yet.
If I look at my post from a distance, it seems to be true, you still get what you pay for. The Soyuz and Chandler are great, but are $3,500 and $4,500. The Neumann reissue is 7G's. Hat's off to Lewitt who've made som incredibly good sounding mics under $1,000. Their 640 sounds like a 414 with better low end to me.
I'm hoping the Stam SA67 or the Golden Age GA47 will get me where I need to be because I don't see the budget for a Neumann U67 in my cards for a while. Stam's gear has gotten very high marks from folks once they get it, so I have high hopes he'll come through.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 22, 2019 11:30:46 GMT -6
Thanks Klaus! Chris
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Feb 22, 2019 18:03:50 GMT -6
Hi Klaus!
It's really good to see you here, and that's one hell of an intro post!
I remember when you were the service guy at (the late) Don Wehr's in SF. What a long, strange trip it's been!
|
|
|
Post by Vincent R. on Feb 22, 2019 18:25:14 GMT -6
klaus , have you had a chance to try some other company's K67, like Heiserman's? How do they compare to Neumann's current offering?
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 22, 2019 18:38:44 GMT -6
Klaus, I too would like to know what you think of the Heiserman capsule. That's what's in the new Stam SA67.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Feb 22, 2019 22:13:11 GMT -6
Welcome, Klaus! Awesome to see you here.
|
|
klaus
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by klaus on Feb 23, 2019 4:17:33 GMT -6
Earlier I mentioned my dissatisfaction with Thiersch's Polyester reskins of the K67. I also have not been impressed with David Walker's re-diaphragmings; too many of the ones I have had here suffered from tension loss and areal wrinkling. I understand he does not offer that service anymore?
Eric Heiserman recently posted on my forum that the dimensions of his U67 backplate design deviate from that of Neumann's.
In his post he does not mention diaphragm specifics. I have not heard the capsule and therefore cannot comment on its sound.
I do not think the only way forward is a perfect copy of a proven Neumann or AKG design. I would be equally happy with any effort towards a new, enticing, emotionally satisfying transducer.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 23, 2019 8:16:51 GMT -6
Klaus, what do think of the whole TLM concept and Neumann's movement towards transformerless microphones? BTW I'm also a fan of the Bock and FLEA microphones. I think the Heiserman 47 FET and 47 tube versions sound excellent for vocals too. Their FET sounded slightly fuller vs. the Neumann 47 FET. I don't have enough experience with a Neumann U47 tube, to comment on how the Heiserman compares. Thanks Chris
|
|