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Post by Guitar on Aug 9, 2018 17:25:42 GMT -6
It sort of sounds like a live radio or TV kind of track/mix. So that's pretty good.
I would try to focus on getting a more "intimate" and "close" sound. Whatever that means to you. The vocal especially seems to be at a medium distance rather than right up in the center. The vocal could have more air to it I guess. Mixing the band also has an effect on this vocal presentation. The band seems in the same space as the vocal rather than around and behind it.
To me that would mean more spread, wider sounds, deep sounds like the delay and reverbs. Overall it sounds a bit dry. Try to get things more separated. For example some of the FX guitars could go hard left or right. I think you can actually go deeper in the bass if you want. The kick and bass are very subdued here. Most of the tracks are hitting right in the midrange and nothing is particularly off to any side.
I would solo the drums and try to get a great stereo drum sound. Then try to get a fat bass. I think that would get you off in the right direction.
It's a good start! And I think the fact that you are striving for perfection gives a lot of credit to your ears and ability to judge and tweak sounds. It's a battle I think that most people have fought and continue to fight.
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Post by christopher on Aug 9, 2018 18:34:23 GMT -6
One thing to consider sometimes when we monitor at lower volumes its really easy to start falling in love with a fat, full low end. I do it all the time. I forget that speakers have tons of headroom when quiet, so they love taking more signal, and it starts to sound more realistic, the more warmth and fatness there is: like you are mixing a band from across the street of the stadium; its quiet but 'realistic'. What usually helps me translate better is to turn up the monitors to actual concert loudness- as I would expect if I were near the stage. Use any reference track to find out how loud to go (without pain). Then go to your song and dial in kick and bass to sound "real". At this point the speakers can either handle it or it can't, so its easier to get right. Then push vocals up as loud as they can go without killing you, again think of how the reference went. Whatever is lumpy and uneven in loudness, automate if you have the time. Same with everything else. Whatever else you don't have time to process to perfection, consider letting it sit lower in the mix.
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 9, 2018 18:46:51 GMT -6
Thanks for the replies. Some days it's super easy. Then sometimes you hear a mix that is just so off from where you thought it was it gets discouraging. Today was one of those days. I finished a mix then played it in my friends Honda and it was embarrassingly muddy and dark. Ugh. I'm never giving up... I've been thinking about your situation for the past couple of days, c0rtland. I'm sorry you're discouraged. That really sucks. I think we've all been there at one time or another. These are some random thoughts I have: First, I personally always use reference tracks. I have a ton of respect for EmRR and others who don't find they need to, but for me personally, it helps a great deal. One of the ways it helps is that in my reference track playlist, I have songs that I love. Some of these songs bear little resemblance to what I'm working on at the moment. But I have them there to remind me of the parameters within which I'm aiming. I'll usually have maybe one song that's a bit brighter than I'm aiming for, and another song that's a bit darker than what I'm aiming for. If I stick somewhere in the middle of those, I know I'm generally in the right place for my artistic goals. Here's a second thought: I heard a song the other day off of the first album by The Strokes. I loved that album when it came out, but man, I am *not* trying to make my material sound like that (unless I work with a band who's crazy about that sound, and that's actually happened to me before). There's so much midrange, not much bass extension, not much treble extension. The vocals are intentionally distorted, of course, but it makes it hard to distinguish the lyrics at times. It's just not what I'm typically going for. BUT - (and here's the kicker) - it's a great album! And it touched a lot of people! It changed a portion of the world for a little while. Another example that comes to mind, and I thought of this one because of your comment about listening in your friend's Honda: I have a friend who's a good producer and audio engineer, and he has great taste in music. But it is very difficult to play *anything* that T-bone Burnett has produced in the past ten years in my friend's car. The bass is really boomy, and it just overpowers his SUV. Certainly, he could tune his car's sub better, but a lot of other stuff sounds great in his car as-is. I don't say these things to indicate that you (or any of us) don't need to continue to work and practice and critique and get advice and help and grow, because certainly we all do. And most importantly, if you're not getting the results that *you* want, then that's the gap to aim for. I just say all this because I think there is a lot more latitude in rock (especially) to make creative decisions that someone else may hear and say, "that's wrong," when in fact, it may be just fine. Who knows? It may even be "the next big thing." Onwards and upwards.
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Post by jdc on Aug 9, 2018 19:31:36 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 9, 2018 20:50:52 GMT -6
Maybe I posted this earlier in this thread, but I have found Ozone 8 to be invaluable in this regard. It has the one touch reference thingy where you can a/b any reference tracks...and I’ve found the tonal balance thing to be super helpful.
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Post by svart on Aug 9, 2018 20:54:28 GMT -6
I drop reference mixes into the daw and bring them out on mixer channels so I can a/b through my system or direct to speakers and see what differences my hardware makes too.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 9, 2018 21:21:33 GMT -6
That's a cool idea svart, I'll have to try that.
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Post by c0rtland on Aug 9, 2018 23:13:04 GMT -6
Started from scratch. That seemed like the ticket, less chasing my tail. Mixed in mono low on the 10's. Added instrument buss compression. Combined the vox and ag compression since there was some bleed. Thought I'd treat them together (54f50) since they were performed together. Seemed to work this time. Vocal got an 1176 before the group compressor for peak limiting. I was using a 160 for that before but the 1176f just worked immediately. 12:1. Worked on the drums more. Removed the vox ag room mics. Did more automation for movement. Thanks for the motivation guys. Much appreciated group therapy. www.dropbox.com/s/imrf44lhkjx9vvp/daytime%20misery%20fresh%208%3A9.wav?dl=0
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 10, 2018 12:29:33 GMT -6
Maybe I posted this earlier in this thread, but I have found Ozone 8 to be invaluable in this regard. It has the one touch reference thingy where you can a/b any reference tracks...and I’ve found the tonal balance thing to be super helpful. Ozone 8 is definitely invaluable to me and the tools and features in that program are worth far more than any compressor or eq you'd spend thousands on out there. Just load your favorite mixes as a batch into the reference section, then allow Ozone to learn the dynamics, loudness and tone of your track against the combined curve of the references and it'll blow you away. The program is scary intelligent, it's not just analyzing the eq/saturation/compression/width of the references, but the "sound" of them and then uses all those aforementioned tools to match your track. Izotope has really changed the way I work and also allowed me to damn near be completely ITB.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2018 12:46:45 GMT -6
Maybe I posted this earlier in this thread, but I have found Ozone 8 to be invaluable in this regard. It has the one touch reference thingy where you can a/b any reference tracks...and I’ve found the tonal balance thing to be super helpful. Ozone 8 is definitely invaluable to me and the tools and features in that program are worth far more than any compressor or eq you'd spend thousands on out there. Just load your favorite mixes as a batch into the reference section, then allow Ozone to learn the dynamics, loudness and tone of your track against the combined curve of the references and it'll blow you away. The program is scary intelligent, it's not just analyzing the eq/saturation/compression/width of the references, but the "sound" of them and then uses all those aforementioned tools to match your track. Izotope has really changed the way I work and also allowed me to damn near be completely ITB. I hate to admit it, but I use the mastering assistant thing all the time. It hears things - especially with the Dynamic EQ that I hadn’t before. Of course, I tweak, but it’s badass. Btw - I did t know it could analyze a batch of songs. Need to read up.
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Clarity
Aug 10, 2018 12:48:18 GMT -6
Post by the other mark williams on Aug 10, 2018 12:48:18 GMT -6
Maybe I posted this earlier in this thread, but I have found Ozone 8 to be invaluable in this regard. It has the one touch reference thingy where you can a/b any reference tracks...and I’ve found the tonal balance thing to be super helpful. Ozone 8 is definitely invaluable to me and the tools and features in that program are worth far more than any compressor or eq you'd spend thousands on out there. Just load your favorite mixes as a batch into the reference section, then allow Ozone to learn the dynamics, loudness and tone of your track against the combined curve of the references and it'll blow you away. The program is scary intelligent, it's not just analyzing the eq/saturation/compression/width of the references, but the "sound" of them and then uses all those aforementioned tools to match your track. Izotope has really changed the way I work and also allowed me to damn near be completely ITB. Johnkenn and jeromemason, does Ozone 8 Standard have this feature as well, or is it just Ozone 8 Advanced? It looks like Standard has it, as well, but I wanted to check. It sounds like a pretty cool feature.
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Clarity
Aug 10, 2018 12:53:06 GMT -6
Post by EmRR on Aug 10, 2018 12:53:06 GMT -6
Find monkeys for sweatshop, buy Ozone 8.....I KEED!
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Clarity
Aug 10, 2018 13:00:47 GMT -6
Post by jeromemason on Aug 10, 2018 13:00:47 GMT -6
Ozone 8 is definitely invaluable to me and the tools and features in that program are worth far more than any compressor or eq you'd spend thousands on out there. Just load your favorite mixes as a batch into the reference section, then allow Ozone to learn the dynamics, loudness and tone of your track against the combined curve of the references and it'll blow you away. The program is scary intelligent, it's not just analyzing the eq/saturation/compression/width of the references, but the "sound" of them and then uses all those aforementioned tools to match your track. Izotope has really changed the way I work and also allowed me to damn near be completely ITB. I hate to admit it, but I use the mastering assistant thing all the time. It hears things - especially with the Dynamic EQ that I hadn’t before. Of course, I tweak, but it’s badass. Btw - I did t know it could analyze a batch of songs. Need to read up. Yep, just make a folder with all the best songs you like, open the folder, cmd+a and it'll build a reference from all of them. The more the better. Ozone 8 is definitely invaluable to me and the tools and features in that program are worth far more than any compressor or eq you'd spend thousands on out there. Just load your favorite mixes as a batch into the reference section, then allow Ozone to learn the dynamics, loudness and tone of your track against the combined curve of the references and it'll blow you away. The program is scary intelligent, it's not just analyzing the eq/saturation/compression/width of the references, but the "sound" of them and then uses all those aforementioned tools to match your track. Izotope has really changed the way I work and also allowed me to damn near be completely ITB. Johnkenn and jeromemason , does Ozone 8 Standard have this feature as well, or is it just Ozone 8 Advanced? It looks like Standard has it, as well, but I wanted to check. It sounds like a pretty cool feature. It's the "Mastering Assistant" If it says it has that then you're good. I have the Advanced versions of Ozone and RX6.
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Clarity
Aug 10, 2018 13:09:06 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by c0rtland on Aug 10, 2018 13:09:06 GMT -6
Maybe I posted this earlier in this thread, but I have found Ozone 8 to be invaluable in this regard. It has the one touch reference thingy where you can a/b any reference tracks...and I’ve found the tonal balance thing to be super helpful. Ozone 8 is definitely invaluable to me and the tools and features in that program are worth far more than any compressor or eq you'd spend thousands on out there. Just load your favorite mixes as a batch into the reference section, then allow Ozone to learn the dynamics, loudness and tone of your track against the combined curve of the references and it'll blow you away. The program is scary intelligent, it's not just analyzing the eq/saturation/compression/width of the references, but the "sound" of them and then uses all those aforementioned tools to match your track. Izotope has really changed the way I work and also allowed me to damn near be completely ITB. The more the better? That seems odd to me. I'm thinking of it sorta like a box of crayons are all different but super pretty. Combine them all and you end up with sludge brown.
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Clarity
Aug 10, 2018 13:22:59 GMT -6
Post by the other mark williams on Aug 10, 2018 13:22:59 GMT -6
It looks like you can get Ozone 8 Standard fairly cheaply right now with their "back to school" sale. At Audiodeluxe, it's like $168 or something. Or it *appears* to me you can get Ozone Elements AND the upgrade from Elements to Standard for a total of $108.64.
If it's as good as you guys are saying it is, that's a steal.
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Clarity
Aug 10, 2018 13:25:56 GMT -6
Post by jeromemason on Aug 10, 2018 13:25:56 GMT -6
Nope..... It doesn't work like that. You can trial the advanced version and try it out. Just find the mixes you like the most and load them in and trust what it gives you. I will usually tweak a little but will leave the majority of what it does alone. The static eq curve and compression I normally don't touch.
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Post by c0rtland on Aug 10, 2018 13:30:20 GMT -6
It looks like you can get Ozone 8 Standard fairly cheaply right now with their "back to school" sale. At Audiodeluxe, it's like $168 or something. Or it *appears* to me you can get Ozone Elements AND the upgrade from Elements to Standard for a total of $108.64. If it's as good as you guys are saying it is, that's a steal. its worth it for the dynamic eq alone.
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Clarity
Aug 10, 2018 13:35:13 GMT -6
Post by the other mark williams on Aug 10, 2018 13:35:13 GMT -6
[...] You can trial the advanced version and try it out. [...] FWIW, it looks to me like Standard can do all the "Master Assistant" and "Track Referencing" stuff (according to the feature comparison chart on the iZotope website).
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 10, 2018 14:44:35 GMT -6
Awesome..... It's truly an invaluable tool. One way to use it is instead of letting it apply the fixes, see if you can hear the fixes yourself.... meaning, see if you can fix what it's wanting to fix but instead of globally, on individual tracks. For someone wanting to better their skills this could be one way to train your ears. Izotope Ozone is truly something everyone should have, not just people starting out, but pro's as well, it is a game changer in pushing the envelope of the hi-res hi-quality audio threshold. Another thing I would suggest to you c0rtland, is take a day and sit in your mix room with the highest quality tunes you know and love. Just sit in your mix position and listen, and listen, and listen etc. etc. and keep listening. If you've got another free day, preferably the next day, do it again and the next day, if you can, do it again. Your ears and brain will train themselves to how things sound in your room. Next, pull up a mix from scratch and go at it, each time you start to work on a critical element in your mix, pull up a reference mix that highlights that critical element and burn the sound of it in your head, then pull your mix back up and go at it. If you combine both the Ozone and that technique I think your mixes will start going in the direction you're wanting. But, remember, I've been doing this for 15 years and I can't say this enough, that experience and constant practice is what makes you better, that along with the quality of what you're mixing.
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Clarity
Aug 23, 2018 10:04:36 GMT -6
via mobile
Guitar likes this
Post by c0rtland on Aug 23, 2018 10:04:36 GMT -6
So just an update here. I'm truly wrestling with mixing and learning a lot right now. My last two breakthroughs came recently and I'd like to share.
1. My frequency balance is off. I think I'm trying to shoot for overhyped modern subconsciously instead of balanced. Control the low end and pick and choose what gets to dominate the high frequencies at any given time.
2. I'm overmixing. I think that I'm doing way too much processing to each track because I can and it sounds good initially but then everything is hyped and forward and nothing sounds right. I'm trying to get into the headspace where I'm correcting problems if there are any and letting the tracks just be what they are. Then maybe do parallel processing for extra impact where needed emotionally in the track. I think this is probably a common mistake for amateurs. We get so psyched on gear and techniques trying to learn as much as we can that it becomes this thing where it's like how many tools can I use in this mix to pimp it out. When really I should only be using processing when it's needed. Not as a matter of course.
It sounds like such common sense and I would have even told someone else that's how to do it. But I think it's sinking in for me. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I'm learning that restraint can be more important than knowing clever ways to make things sound hyped.
I took a track I had been working on and scratched everything. Every eq comp everything. And I just listened to it. I could here were a few tweaks here or there would help smooth and focus things but compared to the overmixed version I had been listening to it was like a warm blanket. It was pleasurable sonically vs everything loud and sparkly and canned and mangled. It was a big eye opener.
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Clarity
Aug 23, 2018 10:12:11 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by c0rtland on Aug 23, 2018 10:12:11 GMT -6
Taste not Tricks.
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Clarity
Aug 23, 2018 12:19:34 GMT -6
Post by Guitar on Aug 23, 2018 12:19:34 GMT -6
So just an update here. I'm truly wrestling with mixing and learning a lot right now. My last two breakthroughs came recently and I'd like to share. 1. My frequency balance is off. I think I'm trying to shoot for overhyped modern subconsciously instead of balanced. Control the low end and pick and choose what gets to dominate the high frequencies at any given time. 2. I'm overmixing. I think that I'm doing way too much processing to each track because I can and it sounds good initially but then everything is hyped and forward and nothing sounds right. I'm trying to get into the headspace where I'm correcting problems if there are any and letting the tracks just be what they are. Then maybe do parallel processing for extra impact where needed emotionally in the track. I think this is probably a common mistake for amateurs. We get so psyched on gear and techniques trying to learn as much as we can that it becomes this thing where it's like how many tools can I use in this mix to pimp it out. When really I should only be using processing when it's needed. Not as a matter of course. It sounds like such common sense and I would have even told someone else that's how to do it. But I think it's sinking in for me. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I'm learning that restraint can be more important than knowing clever ways to make things sound hyped. I took a track I had been working on and scratched everything. Every eq comp everything. And I just listened to it. I could here were a few tweaks here or there would help smooth and focus things but compared to the overmixed version I had been listening to it was like a warm blanket. It was pleasurable sonically vs everything loud and sparkly and canned and mangled. It was a big eye opener. I had that "A-Ha" moment myself a couple years ago, sort of blew my mind actually. Really good thing to realize. There was somebody with a clever phrase for it like, "Knowing how to use every knob in the studio, but not touching any of them."
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Clarity
Aug 23, 2018 12:32:06 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by c0rtland on Aug 23, 2018 12:32:06 GMT -6
So just an update here. I'm truly wrestling with mixing and learning a lot right now. My last two breakthroughs came recently and I'd like to share. 1. My frequency balance is off. I think I'm trying to shoot for overhyped modern subconsciously instead of balanced. Control the low end and pick and choose what gets to dominate the high frequencies at any given time. 2. I'm overmixing. I think that I'm doing way too much processing to each track because I can and it sounds good initially but then everything is hyped and forward and nothing sounds right. I'm trying to get into the headspace where I'm correcting problems if there are any and letting the tracks just be what they are. Then maybe do parallel processing for extra impact where needed emotionally in the track. I think this is probably a common mistake for amateurs. We get so psyched on gear and techniques trying to learn as much as we can that it becomes this thing where it's like how many tools can I use in this mix to pimp it out. When really I should only be using processing when it's needed. Not as a matter of course. It sounds like such common sense and I would have even told someone else that's how to do it. But I think it's sinking in for me. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I'm learning that restraint can be more important than knowing clever ways to make things sound hyped. I took a track I had been working on and scratched everything. Every eq comp everything. And I just listened to it. I could here were a few tweaks here or there would help smooth and focus things but compared to the overmixed version I had been listening to it was like a warm blanket. It was pleasurable sonically vs everything loud and sparkly and canned and mangled. It was a big eye opener. I had that "A-Ha" moment myself a couple years ago, sort of blew my mind actually. Really good thing to realize. There was somebody with a clever phrase for it like, "Knowing how to use every knob in the studio, but not touching any of them." yeah man. I heard that years ago it just didn't sink in. Now it's painfully obvious. I believe fletcher is the person I saw who said that.
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Post by christopher on Aug 23, 2018 12:38:21 GMT -6
Yeah it took me a while too.. the number one tool is the fader. Want more bass or treble? turn it up, if its too much bass or treble turn it down. I guess I always EQ if things sound bad, try to make it sound realistic and natural. The real challenge is turning lav mics into realistic and good sounding people, that really helped my ear training. All those mics are super hyped and nasty, I try to turn them into someone naturally talking next to you. Anyway, once the tracks sound 'real' at a loud volume, no weird lumps in the low mids are anything, no overly essy stuff, then its all faders... and then you can later decide to enhance, if really want to. Once that's all figured out, and translation is solved, being bold with EQ is the next crazy challenge.
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Post by svart on Aug 23, 2018 13:43:52 GMT -6
So just an update here. I'm truly wrestling with mixing and learning a lot right now. My last two breakthroughs came recently and I'd like to share. 1. My frequency balance is off. I think I'm trying to shoot for overhyped modern subconsciously instead of balanced. Control the low end and pick and choose what gets to dominate the high frequencies at any given time. 2. I'm overmixing. I think that I'm doing way too much processing to each track because I can and it sounds good initially but then everything is hyped and forward and nothing sounds right. I'm trying to get into the headspace where I'm correcting problems if there are any and letting the tracks just be what they are. Then maybe do parallel processing for extra impact where needed emotionally in the track. I think this is probably a common mistake for amateurs. We get so psyched on gear and techniques trying to learn as much as we can that it becomes this thing where it's like how many tools can I use in this mix to pimp it out. When really I should only be using processing when it's needed. Not as a matter of course. It sounds like such common sense and I would have even told someone else that's how to do it. But I think it's sinking in for me. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I'm learning that restraint can be more important than knowing clever ways to make things sound hyped. I took a track I had been working on and scratched everything. Every eq comp everything. And I just listened to it. I could here were a few tweaks here or there would help smooth and focus things but compared to the overmixed version I had been listening to it was like a warm blanket. It was pleasurable sonically vs everything loud and sparkly and canned and mangled. It was a big eye opener. I want you to try an exercise next time you have fresh tracks to mix.. Get everything ready that you need. Get things grouped and bussed and ready to mix like an assistant might do for a pro mixer. Once you've gotten everything ready, take a day off and listen to reference tracks while you do other things like work, mowing the lawn, etc. Don't even think about your mix at all. The next time you get into the studio, give yourself an HOUR to get your mix up and balanced. That's it. ONE hour. So you might be saying, "what the hell? an HOUR to get a mix together??" The truth is that most pros get their basic mixes together in an hour or less. The rest of the time is usually tweaking, automation, etc. They don't get stuck on tiny things during the mix, and therefor they don't suffer the myopia and ear fatigue that we commonly end up with on mixes we've slaved over for hours or days. Besides, if it takes longer than this, then your tracks or workflow has issues that need addressing. For me, when I mix other people's tracks, I'll go track by track and edit and do gross EQ like HPF/LPF to get things into a state where I can listen to everything together for the first time without it being a wall of noise and issues. I try to divorce my ear for problems, and my ear for mixing so that I don't get bogged down in details that nobody really hears or cares about. Give this exercise a try. Maybe even go find other people's tracks to mix for practice. There's tons of websites with raw tracks for mixing that are free. There are more that charge money, but usually come with much better engineered raw tracks.
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