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Post by swurveman on Aug 5, 2018 8:13:01 GMT -6
My understanding is that using "Friends and Family" for transactions on PayPal means (a) there are no PayPal fees and (b) there won't be any involvement by PayPal if a dispute arises that needs resolution. This seems to put the buyer at risk, but what is the downside for the seller? The seller can wait till the money clears the bank before he sends the item. So, what other risks are there?
I ask, because a buyer wants to use "Friends and Family to buy my Bricasti, which would save me the 2.99% fee, but I've never done Friends and Family before. So, I'm cautious.
Thanks to anybody with insight/experience!
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Post by yotonic on Aug 5, 2018 9:54:01 GMT -6
The risk is on the side of the purchaser. That risk is rewarded with a lower price. I do it as a purchaser when I know, or am acquainted with someone like an RGO member. For you, I would sell that M7 in a heartbeat. The risk is on the purchaser and he perhaps is a member here who sees you aren't a ghost.
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Post by swurveman on Aug 5, 2018 11:14:19 GMT -6
The risk is on the side of the purchaser. That risk is rewarded with a lower price. Thanks. That's what I thought. Anybody else with other possible implications? |
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Post by EmRR on Aug 5, 2018 11:27:28 GMT -6
I wonder what happens if it's a stolen card. Even though there's no protection due to lack of tracking info as proof of transaction, it may still get reversed.
From a buyer's perspective, there's no reason to prefer 'friends and family' unless they are getting a discount because of it. I can see it on small items, as a favor (like a tip) towards fee avoidance on small items, but not on large if there's no difference in the sticker price.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2018 11:50:23 GMT -6
Yeah - can’t a stolen card get reversed?
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Post by svart on Aug 5, 2018 12:55:13 GMT -6
There's got to be a catch.
I once sold some speakers, maybe 300$, and on the last day of the eBay return policy I get a notice that the buyer sent a note saying the speakers didn't work, and they immediately reversed the credit card.
PayPal immediately removed the funds from my balance and held them while they "investigated". Oh and the credit card company levied a 30$ fee on me for this as well, but PayPal wouldn't tell me who they were.
"Investigation" is mostly the seller having to defend themselves. If you don't have things like an eBay policy of "sold as-is and no returns" then you're pretty much already screwed when selling on eBay.
I'm not sure how it works in personal sales through PayPal.
They don't tell you what the buyer is saying, nor how they are leaning. They just surprise you with a decree and you get no other appeal.
PayPal ruled in my favor, but did not give me any kind of reasoning or information for this.
I just got a note from then saying their investigation was closed in my favor..
I didn't get my money though.
PayPal then said since it was a credit card purchase, credit laws took precedent and it was then up to the credit card company to determine IF they also saw this as fraud, and then I MIGHT get my money back..
It took 180 days from that point for the (nameless) credit card company to return their decision.
I got my money back, but not the fee they levied. PayPal said to talk to the CC company but wouldn't let me have their name due to some confidentiality law..
I'd say put your item on eBay or reverb, send the buyer the link and have them but it that way so there's some accountability and paper trail.
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Post by keymod on Aug 5, 2018 13:11:08 GMT -6
And then there's the question of honesty.....
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Post by swurveman on Aug 5, 2018 13:51:33 GMT -6
Yeah - can’t a stolen card get reversed? I wonder if I insisted the buyer use American Express if I'd be protected. If I alerted American Express about the upcoming transaction, I wonder what they'd say. They are very proactive about fraud and have saved me before. |
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Post by EmRR on Aug 5, 2018 13:52:27 GMT -6
If you don't have things like an eBay policy of "sold as-is and no returns" then you're pretty much already screwed when selling on eBay. That doesn't count either if it's a "not as described" claim. If you said they work, and they say they don't, it's "not as described", and they then force you to pay return shipping, and credit the buyer upon successful return. If they refuse to return, etc, it's in the sellers favor. |
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Post by svart on Aug 5, 2018 14:29:50 GMT -6
If you don't have things like an eBay policy of "sold as-is and no returns" then you're pretty much already screwed when selling on eBay. That doesn't count either if it's a "not as described" claim. If you said they work, and they say they don't, it's "not as described", and they then force you to pay return shipping, and credit the buyer upon successful return. If they refuse to return, etc, it's in the sellers favor. Huh? I didn't have a "as-is" statement in my sale. That's how I got myself into the whole chargeback fraud thing. PayPal asked me repeatedly if I had offered a warranty or returns on this. I didn't but I assumed they were looking for any reason to turn it around on me. It used to be a huge deal. eBay/PayPal are completely buyer centric. All burden of proof falls on the seller at all times, and there were forums full of people who sold high dollar things and got screwed over small details through the chargeback loophole. I don't know if it was ever fixed, but I assume it was. Paypal asked me if I'd like the items returned, and I said yes. They never mentioned it again, and I never got it back, which I got the money so I guess it's fine. |
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Post by EmRR on Aug 5, 2018 14:57:35 GMT -6
That doesn't count either if it's a "not as described" claim. If you said they work, and they say they don't, it's "not as described", and they then force you to pay return shipping, and credit the buyer upon successful return. If they refuse to return, etc, it's in the sellers favor. Huh? I didn't have a "as-is" statement in my sale. That's how I got myself into the whole chargeback fraud thing. PayPal asked me repeatedly if I had offered a warranty or returns on this. I didn't but I assumed they were looking for any reason to turn it around on me. It used to be a huge deal. eBay/PayPal are completely buyer centric. All burden of proof falls on the seller at all times, and there were forums full of people who sold high dollar things and got screwed over small details through the chargeback loophole. I don't know if it was ever fixed, but I assume it was. Paypal asked me if I'd like the items returned, and I said yes. They never mentioned it again, and I never got it back, which I got the money so I guess it's fine. You're missing the point: there is no such thing as "as-is" as a general disclaimer for "no returns". It's "as claimed in the description", even if you say you don't take returns, you WILL be forced to take a return if it's deemed "incorrectly described". THAT all plugs into the logic chain that's followed when someone makes a claim. 179 days after the purchase, a claim of 'doesn't work' if you said it did will be viewed with great suspicion, and likely end up in your favor, as it did, but not without a lot of grief. Notice how many things are now sold as 'for parts only - not working'; it insulates and is the closest thing to 'as-is' for electronics. Many times it does work, and the seller knows they are only asking for trouble by vouching for condition. In your case I bet the item was no longer in their possession to be returned, or they refused to do so. I helped someone sell a 1930's WE amp from Canada to Hawaii via ebay, the buyer got cold feet based on the customs duties and interview (wanted his SS#) and tried to back out after it was already shipped. Then claimed he fired it up and it had a bad output transformer. We successfully claimed it was never sold as working, only with good tested transformers and would need to be restored, and that clearly it should not have been turned on for testing. He kept the amp, my friend kept the funds, no hold. |
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Post by svart on Aug 5, 2018 16:32:27 GMT -6
Huh? I didn't have a "as-is" statement in my sale. That's how I got myself into the whole chargeback fraud thing. PayPal asked me repeatedly if I had offered a warranty or returns on this. I didn't but I assumed they were looking for any reason to turn it around on me. It used to be a huge deal. eBay/PayPal are completely buyer centric. All burden of proof falls on the seller at all times, and there were forums full of people who sold high dollar things and got screwed over small details through the chargeback loophole. I don't know if it was ever fixed, but I assume it was. Paypal asked me if I'd like the items returned, and I said yes. They never mentioned it again, and I never got it back, which I got the money so I guess it's fine. You're missing the point: there is no such thing as "as-is" as a general disclaimer for "no returns". It's "as claimed in the description", even if you say you don't take returns, you WILL be forced to take a return if it's deemed "incorrectly described". THAT all plugs into the logic chain that's followed when someone makes a claim. 179 days after the purchase, a claim of 'doesn't work' if you said it did will be viewed with great suspicion, and likely end up in your favor, as it did, but not without a lot of grief. Notice how many things are now sold as 'for parts only - not working'; it insulates and is the closest thing to 'as-is' for electronics. Many times it does work, and the seller knows they are only asking for trouble by vouching for condition. In your case I bet the item was no longer in their possession to be returned, or they refused to do so. I helped someone sell a 1930's WE amp from Canada to Hawaii via ebay, the buyer got cold feet based on the customs duties and interview (wanted his SS#) and tried to back out after it was already shipped. Then claimed he fired it up and it had a bad output transformer. We successfully claimed it was never sold as working, only with good tested transformers and would need to be restored, and that clearly it should not have been turned on for testing. He kept the amp, my friend kept the funds, no hold. I never said "as-is" equals no returns. I now state in every auction that something is "as-is, for parts, no warranty and no returns".. I'm sure my case was chargeback fraud. I researched the buyer and they hadn't bought anything for a year prior, and the buyer's ID was removed after the case was closed. |
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Post by EmRR on Aug 5, 2018 16:36:03 GMT -6
You're missing the point: there is no such thing as "as-is" as a general disclaimer for "no returns". It's "as claimed in the description", even if you say you don't take returns, you WILL be forced to take a return if it's deemed "incorrectly described". THAT all plugs into the logic chain that's followed when someone makes a claim. 179 days after the purchase, a claim of 'doesn't work' if you said it did will be viewed with great suspicion, and likely end up in your favor, as it did, but not without a lot of grief. Notice how many things are now sold as 'for parts only - not working'; it insulates and is the closest thing to 'as-is' for electronics. Many times it does work, and the seller knows they are only asking for trouble by vouching for condition. In your case I bet the item was no longer in their possession to be returned, or they refused to do so. I helped someone sell a 1930's WE amp from Canada to Hawaii via ebay, the buyer got cold feet based on the customs duties and interview (wanted his SS#) and tried to back out after it was already shipped. Then claimed he fired it up and it had a bad output transformer. We successfully claimed it was never sold as working, only with good tested transformers and would need to be restored, and that clearly it should not have been turned on for testing. He kept the amp, my friend kept the funds, no hold. I never said "as-is" equals no returns. I now state in every auction that something is "as-is, for parts, no warranty and no returns".. I'm sure my case was chargeback fraud. I researched the buyer and they hadn't bought anything for a year prior, and the buyer's ID was removed after the case was closed. Jesus Christ dude, I never said you did. NO RETURNS is the bit I am addressing. THERE IS NO SUCH THING IF THEY DEEM IT. Sounds like you have it covered. Might want to add 'for parts - not working'. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 6, 2018 17:04:52 GMT -6
The last time I used the "Friends and family" option on paypal for a moderately substantial payment Paypal charged ME a surcharge but not the recipient. I don't know if it was because the amount was over a certain limit or what, but that never happened to me before.
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 6, 2018 17:15:31 GMT -6
Whatever you do. Get tracking, make them sign for it.
I once sold a car part to a guy on a supra forum. He claimed he never got it. Filed a dispute. Nothing I could do as I cheaped out on shipping. Was young and dumb back then but for all I know, he got the part for free.
A common thing online for people you don't know is to say:
"Price is $2000 + PP fee"
So then they KNOW they have to add 3%.
Unless you trust the guy and know them. Id make them pay the 3%.
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Post by swurveman on Aug 6, 2018 19:09:07 GMT -6
Whatever you do. Get tracking, make them sign for it. I once sold a car part to a guy on a supra forum. He claimed he never got it. Filed a dispute. Nothing I could do as I cheaped out on shipping. Was young and dumb back then but for all I know, he got the part for free. A common thing online for people you don't know is to say: "Price is $2000 + PP fee" So then they KNOW they have to add 3%. Unless you trust the guy and know them. Id make them pay the 3%. I always do that. I had a friend who sold a guy a four channel preamp. The guy he sold it to said he never received it and my friend had to refund the money. |
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Post by bowie on Aug 13, 2018 16:23:39 GMT -6
ONLY use FriendsAndFamily if know/trust the seller. I've heard some real horror stories. I also had it work for me once when someone tried to scam me. After being very difficult to negotiate with, he paid directly with F&F for an E-drum kit before I could even send him a PP invoice. He was hassling me for discounts AFTER the sale, before he even received it. After receiving the kit, he claimed the electronics were all faulty (which they weren't as I tested them all) and tried to get me to send him a partial refund. I told him I would only accept a return. He filed a dispute asking for the partial refund. I spoke to a rep at PP and she said, "If you would have invoiced him he would be entitled to a full refund but since he went outside the rules and violated the F&F agreement, he has no rights in this claim".
Even though it was a bit of a reverse scam, it opened my eyes and now I always pay for items as merchandise, and include as many details about the item as possible in the notes. Some sellers insist on F&F only. I tell them I will pay as merch and add 3% (or whichever) percent to the toal to cover the fees. If they have a problem with that, there's clearly something sketchy going on. No one likes fees but it's not worth throwing away all rights as a buyer just to save 3%.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 14, 2018 5:26:20 GMT -6
"No one likes fees but it's not worth throwing away all rights as a buyer just to save 3%.": exactly !!
In using f&f the seller and buyer are now incurring risk as they will have no recourse through PP's dispute mechanism, there will be additional costs as there will no included shipping insurance (paid for within the 3-4% PP fee). This btw is automatically paid by the seller. If you ask the buyer to pay you more, PP still takes the 3.99% off the total. Normal transactions always require a tracking number again to support a dispute.
Like said above, I will use F&F with people I know but otherwise, not
I use the PP receipt system to very accurately describe the product I am selling and the deal as I think this helps PP to side with me in a dispute.
Once payment is received , I transfer it out of my PP account asap, also, just so PP can't play games with my money
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Post by bowie on Aug 14, 2018 15:02:56 GMT -6
"No one likes fees but it's not worth throwing away all rights as a buyer just to save 3%.": exactly !! In using f&f the seller and buyer are now incurring risk as they will have no recourse through PP's dispute mechanism, there will be additional costs as there will no included shipping insurance (paid for within the 3-4% PP fee). This btw is automatically paid by the seller. If you ask the buyer to pay you more, PP still takes the 3.99% off the total. Normal transactions always require a tracking number again to support a dispute. Like said above, I will use F&F with people I know but otherwise, not I use the PP receipt system to very accurately describe the product I am selling and the deal as I think this helps PP to side with me in a dispute. Once payment is received , I transfer it out of my PP account asap, also, just so PP can't play games with my money Here's a cautionary tale for sellers. This year, a Youtuber I occasionally watch was receiving significant donations from a fan. I was very suspect but never said anything. One day the broadcaster uploaded a video, appearing distraught and suicidal, explaining that all the donations (PayPal F&F) were disputed and that he now owed PayPal over $10,000. PayPal was unhelpful and the streamer (a guy in his 20's living in his parent's house in the UK) had given much of the money to help his family. Be careful who you accept friends and family payments from. |
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Post by doom3crazy on Sept 22, 2018 20:34:25 GMT -6
I'd say overall, it's a safer bet to just take the hit on the fee's.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 23, 2018 19:22:52 GMT -6
"No one likes fees but it's not worth throwing away all rights as a buyer just to save 3%.": exactly !! In using f&f the seller and buyer are now incurring risk as they will have no recourse through PP's dispute mechanism, there will be additional costs as there will no included shipping insurance (paid for within the 3-4% PP fee). This btw is automatically paid by the seller. If you ask the buyer to pay you more, PP still takes the 3.99% off the total. Normal transactions always require a tracking number again to support a dispute. Like said above, I will use F&F with people I know but otherwise, not I use the PP receipt system to very accurately describe the product I am selling and the deal as I think this helps PP to side with me in a dispute. Once payment is received , I transfer it out of my PP account asap, also, just so PP can't play games with my money Here's a cautionary tale for sellers. This year, a Youtuber I occasionally watch was receiving significant donations from a fan. I was very suspect but never said anything. One day the broadcaster uploaded a video, appearing distraught and suicidal, explaining that all the donations (PayPal F&F) were disputed and that he now owed PayPal over $10,000. PayPal was unhelpful and the streamer (a guy in his 20's living in his parent's house in the UK) had given much of the money to help his family. Be careful who you accept friends and family payments from. I thought if it was F&F you can't dispute it?? That was the point. No Fees, no PayPal services.. |
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Post by bowie on Sept 23, 2018 19:55:15 GMT -6
Here's a cautionary tale for sellers. This year, a Youtuber I occasionally watch was receiving significant donations from a fan. I was very suspect but never said anything. One day the broadcaster uploaded a video, appearing distraught and suicidal, explaining that all the donations (PayPal F&F) were disputed and that he now owed PayPal over $10,000. PayPal was unhelpful and the streamer (a guy in his 20's living in his parent's house in the UK) had given much of the money to help his family. Be careful who you accept friends and family payments from. I thought if it was F&F you can't dispute it?? That was the point. No Fees, no PayPal services.. If they do it in the form of a credit card chargeback, they absolutely can. PayPal will promptly yank that money back as fast as possible and if it isn't there, it's considered debt. Since F&F isn't for merch, you can't prove to the CC company that it was a legit transaction. The sender just needs to convince their CC company that they were scammed. This seems to be easier in certain countries more than others. PayPal says they will try to work with credit card companies in situations of chargebacks but that it's entirely up to the CC company. I've never had it happen to me but the reps gave me the impression that success is mixed, especially if the bank is outside of the US. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 23, 2018 23:17:07 GMT -6
I thought if it was F&F you can't dispute it?? That was the point. No Fees, no PayPal services.. If they do it in the form of a credit card chargeback, they absolutely can. PayPal will promptly yank that money back as fast as possible and if it isn't there, it's considered debt. Since F&F isn't for merch, you can't prove to the CC company that it was a legit transaction. The sender just needs to convince their CC company that they were scammed. This seems to be easier in certain countries more than others. PayPal says they will try to work with credit card companies in situations of chargebacks but that it's entirely up to the CC company. I've never had it happen to me but the reps gave me the impression that success is mixed, especially if the bank is outside of the US. Interesting. Shitty for that youtuber guy. I do have to say the Paypal dispute thing is pretty aggressive, once filed its almost impossible to win if you're on the other end of it. |
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Post by bowie on Sept 24, 2018 12:29:00 GMT -6
If they do it in the form of a credit card chargeback, they absolutely can. PayPal will promptly yank that money back as fast as possible and if it isn't there, it's considered debt. Since F&F isn't for merch, you can't prove to the CC company that it was a legit transaction. The sender just needs to convince their CC company that they were scammed. This seems to be easier in certain countries more than others. PayPal says they will try to work with credit card companies in situations of chargebacks but that it's entirely up to the CC company. I've never had it happen to me but the reps gave me the impression that success is mixed, especially if the bank is outside of the US. Interesting. Shitty for that youtuber guy. I do have to say the Paypal dispute thing is pretty aggressive, once filed its almost impossible to win if you're on the other end of it. It's ugly, that's for sure. I've only had a few against me (never against my business, all just ebay scammers trying to get free stuff) but managed to win all disputes by having good documentation and talking to PayPal. It's amazing how far you can get by talking to the people at PayPal and explaining to them what's going on. |
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