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Post by winetree on Jul 25, 2018 21:28:49 GMT -6
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km84s
Jul 25, 2018 22:12:39 GMT -6
Post by Mister Chase on Jul 25, 2018 22:12:39 GMT -6
I believe its due to the capsule construction. As is the reason most modern releases of an old model never sound as good. Different capsule manufacturing. All about the capsule and slightly the transformer, you can still get the capsule as a replacement part. That iron definitely makes a difference, too.
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 6:41:50 GMT -6
Post by svart on Jul 26, 2018 6:41:50 GMT -6
Interesting. those are just raw MXL603/MXLV67/NadyCM90 bodies.. You can get them for like 30$ on ebay..
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ericn
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 6:55:15 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Jul 26, 2018 6:55:15 GMT -6
Interesting. those are just raw MXL603/MXLV67/NadyCM90 bodies.. You can get them for like 30$ on ebay.. Are the threads the same ?
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 7:03:25 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Jul 26, 2018 7:03:25 GMT -6
Interesting. those are just raw MXL603/MXLV67/NadyCM90 bodies.. You can get them for like 30$ on ebay.. Are the threads the same ? Same as what? The KM(1)84? In the GDIY thread they state that the KM84 capsule is smaller and is not compatible with the group buy body. I looked at what it would take to put a 184 capsule on my 603's and the 184/84 capsule is smaller in diameter than the 603. I can only assume the body and thread are the same as the 603 by what is said in the thread, and by having both 603 and Nady CM90 that I have modded and played around with.
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Post by ericn on Jul 26, 2018 7:18:47 GMT -6
Are the threads the same ? Same as what? The KM(1)84? In the GDIY thread they state that the KM84 capsule is smaller and is not compatible with the group buy body. I looked at what it would take to put a 184 capsule on my 603's and the 184/84 capsule is smaller in diameter than the 603. I can only assume the body and thread are the same as the 603 by what is said in the thread, and by having both 603 and Nady CM90 that I have modded and played around with. So why would anybody buy a KM84 body that won’t mate with a KM84 capsule? Makes no sense to me.
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 7:54:50 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Jul 26, 2018 7:54:50 GMT -6
Same as what? The KM(1)84? In the GDIY thread they state that the KM84 capsule is smaller and is not compatible with the group buy body. I looked at what it would take to put a 184 capsule on my 603's and the 184/84 capsule is smaller in diameter than the 603. I can only assume the body and thread are the same as the 603 by what is said in the thread, and by having both 603 and Nady CM90 that I have modded and played around with. So why would anybody buy a KM84 body that won’t mate with a KM84 capsule? Makes no sense to me. They didn't. I'm not sure what you're saying..
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 8:18:42 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 26, 2018 8:18:42 GMT -6
No, that's an interesting question superwack. I think that basically, the capsule might be just a little different because of availability and quality of metals, or the original tube is no longer available. Also, a new Neumann U67 might sound different than an old one, but the old one might have sounded exactly like the new one when it was first made. But who knows?
Neumann's KM184 has very similar qualities to the original, but it misses the target by enough that people don't care for them as much. In the case of a U87, I've seen blind shootouts where most people preferred the AI model to the original, only to try stepping it back when they found out.
What I like about the Soyuz 0-13 is that it's original, but in the same class as a KM84. I had a pair of 0-13's and a pair of KM84's in my place for a couple of months, and surprisingly preferred the Soyuz. That said, the 84 has passed the test of time, and it's entirely possible that after using the Soyuz for a year or two, I might lean back toward preferring the 84. I'd love to find out, but I don't own an 0-13 yet, maybe later this year.
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ericn
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 8:53:06 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Jul 26, 2018 8:53:06 GMT -6
No, that's an interesting question superwack. I think that basically, the capsule might be just a little different because of availability and quality of metals, or the original tube is no longer available. Also, a new Neumann U67 might sound different than an old one, but the old one might have sounded exactly like the new one when it was first made. But who knows? Neumann's KM184 has very similar qualities to the original, but it misses the target by enough that people don't care for them as much. In the case of a U87, I've seen blind shootouts where most people preferred the AI model to the original, only to try stepping it back when they found out. What I like about the Soyuz 0-13 is that it's original, but in the same class as a KM84. I had a pair of 0-13's and a pair of KM84's in my place for a couple of months, and surprisingly preferred the Soyuz. That said, the 84 has passed the test of time, and it's entirely possible that after using the Soyuz for a year or two, I might lean back toward preferring the 84. I'd love to find out, but I don't own an 0-13 yet, maybe later this year. The 184 was not designed to be like a an 84, it was designed for close micing while the 84 was not, it works well close but that was not it’s intended purpose. The 184 was designed for modern home project rooms, the 84 was designed to be used in real rooms for stereo recording or hung for dialogue. Broadcast was the intended customer and part of what they wanted was the consistent off axis response that works so well and makes it so desirable. The rise of the buying power of the home studio and the demise of the power of large European Broadcasters as part of government may be the single biggest change in the emergence of the bright and boomy modern mic. The large and historic mic manufacturers realize that making it easy to get a useable tone in a specific application is now far more profitable than designing a tool that is capable of giving a great tone with a lot of work and can be used on almost anything.
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 9:12:51 GMT -6
Post by Ward on Jul 26, 2018 9:12:51 GMT -6
Funny, ericn and svart. I just gave away one of those MXL603 and MXL67 pair to a friend. I thought about using them as a modding platform but. . . they are SO FECKING UGLY, what would be the point? Anyhow, another reference was made to hi-hat mic'ing earlier. If the KM84 doesn't work.... try a TLM102
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Post by ericn on Jul 26, 2018 9:16:13 GMT -6
Funny, ericn and svart. I just gave away one of those MXL603 and MXL67 pair to a friend. I thought about using them as a modding platform but. . . they are SO FECKING UGLY, what would be the point? Anyhow, another reference was made to hi-hat mic'ing earlier. If the KM84 doesn't work.... try a TLM102 You found a use for a TLM 102!! Man you should get some kind of prize for that , hell Neumann should send you a U67 and 47fet reissue for that one😁
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 9:28:24 GMT -6
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Post by matt on Jul 26, 2018 9:28:24 GMT -6
If the KM84 doesn't work.... try a TLM102 You found a use for a TLM 102!! Man you should get some kind of prize for that I have a pair of 102s. They are good-looking mics. And they don't necessarily sound bad- it's simply that they don't flatter any source I've tried them on, ever. Strange for a Neumann.
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 9:46:15 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Jul 26, 2018 9:46:15 GMT -6
You found a use for a TLM 102!! Man you should get some kind of prize for that I have a pair of 102s. They are good-looking mics. And they don't necessarily sound bad- it's simply that they don't flatter any source I've tried them on, ever. Strange for a Neumann. Yeah that was the same thing with the TLM103, had to work so hard on signal chain to give it any life.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 26, 2018 9:47:46 GMT -6
Neumann's KM184 has very similar qualities to the original, but it misses the target by enough that people don't care for them as much. The point is the 184 and KM140 doesn't miss the mark, it does exactly what it was designed to do as a next step refinement, which is pass more treble in diffuse field recordings, the #1 target market for the mic. In that usage it's an improvement. If you want to shove it in the sound hole of a guitar or put it on a high hat (the much smaller market), it's not the right mic. They know their target customer and they reacted as required by feedback. They really aren't to be compared, but of course they are by pure resemblance.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 26, 2018 10:11:48 GMT -6
Neumann's KM184 has very similar qualities to the original, but it misses the target by enough that people don't care for them as much. The point is the 184 and KM140 doesn't miss the mark, it does exactly what it was designed to do as a next step refinement, which is pass more treble in diffuse field recordings, the #1 target market for the mic. In that usage it's an improvement. If you want to shove it in the sound hole of a guitar or put it on a high hat (the much smaller market), it's not the right mic. They know their target customer and they reacted as required by feedback. They really aren't to be compared, but of course they are by pure resemblance. The only “miss,” perhaps, is using the same last two numbers which invites the comparison.
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Post by ericn on Jul 26, 2018 10:27:59 GMT -6
The point is the 184 and KM140 doesn't miss the mark, it does exactly what it was designed to do as a next step refinement, which is pass more treble in diffuse field recordings, the #1 target market for the mic. In that usage it's an improvement. If you want to shove it in the sound hole of a guitar or put it on a high hat (the much smaller market), it's not the right mic. They know their target customer and they reacted as required by feedback. They really aren't to be compared, but of course they are by pure resemblance. The only “miss,” perhaps, is using the same last two numbers which invites the comparison. Blame the marketing guys, but the real miss was discontinue I gotta the 84!
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Post by EmRR on Jul 26, 2018 10:45:05 GMT -6
Yeah, they could have both products, but something tells me it wasn't worth their bottom line to fracture the market, especially if the update was made to address customer feedback. Use of 84 makes perfect sense, its (1)84. Just like 54 is 64 is 74 is 84. Just like 176 is 1176. Etc. Clearly not the same thing.
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 13:06:14 GMT -6
Post by winetree on Jul 26, 2018 13:06:14 GMT -6
Interesting. those are just raw MXL603/MXLV67/NadyCM90 bodies.. You can get them for like 30$ on ebay.. Differences: The Group DIY bodies are made of solid BRASS unbranded, not cheap pot metal like the 603s. Polished & nickel plated capsule and connector housings They include a KM84 DIY PCB designed by Graeme Woller Not included but Built with high quality parts, Wima, Dale resisters, etc. Original Haufe 107 transformers. A step up from a 603.
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 13:08:38 GMT -6
Post by svart on Jul 26, 2018 13:08:38 GMT -6
Interesting. those are just raw MXL603/MXLV67/NadyCM90 bodies.. You can get them for like 30$ on ebay.. Differences: The Group DIY bodies are made of solid BRASS not cheap pot metal like the 603s. Polished & nickel plated capsule and connector housings They include a KM84 DIY PCB designed by Graeme Woller Built with high quality parts, Wima, Dale resisters, etc. Original Haufe 107 transformers. I get the PCB stuff, but I would have thought it cheaper to source the mics and buy the boards separate. And my 603's are all brass too.
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 13:26:51 GMT -6
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Post by spindrift on Jul 26, 2018 13:26:51 GMT -6
Neumann's KM184 has very similar qualities to the original, but it misses the target by enough that people don't care for them as much. The point is the 184 and KM140 doesn't miss the mark, it does exactly what it was designed to do as a next step refinement, which is pass more treble in diffuse field recordings, the #1 target market for the mic. In that usage it's an improvement. If you want to shove it in the sound hole of a guitar or put it on a high hat (the much smaller market), it's not the right mic. They know their target customer and they reacted as required by feedback. They really aren't to be compared, but of course they are by pure resemblance. This exactly ^^^^^^ Have you ever recorded an orchestra with a pair of 184s or 140s in ORTF? AMAZING SOUND!!!!! Can also be great on nylon stringed instruments. As always: Pick the right mic for the source.
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 15:24:23 GMT -6
Post by nomatic on Jul 26, 2018 15:24:23 GMT -6
Can Folks that have used both the 84s And the Soyuz comment on the off Axis performance of the 0-13?
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 16:09:28 GMT -6
Post by johneppstein on Jul 26, 2018 16:09:28 GMT -6
Ha. I never really looked into the mc930 mics much. I did a search and a GS thread came up where someone put blind km84 and mc930 tracks up for people to compare. As usual, people picked the nicer of the two tracks as the km84.. But it turned out the most favorite mic before the reveal was actually the mc930.. And then after the reveal everyone scrambling to save face and repick the km84 after "listening better".. Lol
Just like the ART vs. GR thread, it has to be one the best threads of all time.! Hilarity personified.!
I've said it before and I'll probably say it again - I don't like "shootouts". I find them generally uninformative and often downright misleading - although sometimes entertaining.
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 17:36:17 GMT -6
Post by bradd on Jul 26, 2018 17:36:17 GMT -6
KM184s are definitely brighter than MC930s. MC930s have a pretty big low end for a SDC. I don't find them to be noticeably brighter than my KM84s. What's the off-axis like? I can’t say that I have experimented with this much. Mine have been used primarily on acoustic guitar and occasionally overheads. Since I got my KM84s, I haven’t used my Beyers as much, but I did do some head to head comparisons on acoustics and found them to compare favorably.
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km84s
Jul 26, 2018 17:51:02 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 26, 2018 17:51:02 GMT -6
Ok, so the KM184 isn't supposed to be a replacement for the KM84. They certainly could have chosen another number to avoid confusion. Neumann makes a bunch of KM SDC's. Is there one that's supposed to replace the KM84? You know, the one people like in front of their acoustic guitar, not the one meant for "diffuse field recordings".
I'm sure you know much more about it than I doEric, but If the KM184 was in fact made for the burgeoning home recording/project studio market, then I submit they did miss the mark as I stated before. I record at home and I wouldn't use a KM184 for anything, mainly because I've used KM84's a lot, and the difference just bugs me too much. It's definitely inferior for my purposes. The KM84 has no issues whatsoever close up or back a ways IME.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 26, 2018 18:21:24 GMT -6
Since the home studio market began to take off in the 1980's many companies saw a market for affordable studio style microphones.
The traditional Neumann/AKG mics were expensive and generally out of reach of most home studio operators.
Hence we began to see a rapid increase in companies producing cheap studio style LDC's and SDC's.
Most of these were sourced from China using generic circuits (Schoeps) and cheap components.
They sounded bright and 'detailed' compared to the real thing but this was often considered an advantage when being recorded to narrow track format analog multitrack recorders that become popular with home studio operators.
The advent of cheaper digital recorders (ADAT's etc) and early DAW's tended to expose the shortcomings of bright crispy mics and bad sounding rooms.
However with Sennheiser taking over Neumann and AKG also struggling the home studio market was seen as a major sales opportunity.
The problem was these affordable Neumann's and AKG's now suffered the same issues as many of their Chinese counterparts.
The were often overly bright and sibilant but a novice customer with untrained ears would often pick a bright mic over a flatter more neutral mic. This was no doubt a key part of the marketing strategy. Bright equates to detailed and is therefore better.
As time passes ears are trained and perceptions change.
How do I know this? I still have dozens of copies of 'Home and Studio Recording' magazines and it is all laid out historically in the articles, reviews and advertising.
I ain't selling my KM84's!
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