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Post by Quint on Jul 18, 2018 21:27:10 GMT -6
Still think some of the most intimate and amazing vocals are The Beatles. I'm REALLY jonesing for a good 47/48 Carry That Weight. Love the intimacy of the vocals on that song.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 18, 2018 21:32:51 GMT -6
I'm really curious to know which reverb Townsend used on that track. So far, it's at Wessex Studios, SSL board, likely a U67. If it's a plate, I'd guess they had a real one. It was done in 1985.
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Post by yotonic on Jul 18, 2018 21:51:10 GMT -6
Still think some of the most intimate and amazing vocals are The Beatles. I'm REALLY jonesing for a good 47/48 Carry That Weight. Love the intimacy of the vocals on that song. There is world class engineering on this track, you can hear the fader rides. That's not the 47 doing that. I have a Neumann long body again second one and while it has Neumann mojo, it doesn't work miracles. Blackbird is engineering and musicianship at its zenith. The most intimate vocals come from arrangement, fader rides, a great mic and recording chain. Here is Paul laying it down alone with George Martin in the control room. Looks like one SDC (AKG?) off axis for vocal & his guitar and another at the floor for his foot tapping. An SDC can be super intimate. (Love my KM84 on vocals) (from The Beatles Bible) "A number of versions of Blackbird follow, most of which end with a false start. After a break, McCartney continues recording, and eventually manages a full take. His fourth attempt from this time was released on 1996's Anthology 3. Thirty-two takes of Blackbird were recorded during this session, just 11 of which were complete. Take 32 was considered the best, and six mono mixes were made before the session ended at 12.15am. The last mix featured additional bars of guitar at the beginning, which were later omitted. The song was remixed on 13 October 1968, after McCartney realised that Blackbird would sound better with the sound of actual birds on it."
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 18, 2018 22:31:51 GMT -6
Carry That Weight. Love the intimacy of the vocals on that song. There is world class engineering on this track, you can hear the fader rides. That's not the 47 doing that. I have a Neumann long body again second one and while it has Neumann mojo, it doesn't work miracles. Blackbird is engineering and musicianship at its zenith. The most intimate vocals come from arrangement, fader rides, a great mic and recording chain. Here is Paul laying it down alone with George Martin in the control room. Looks like one SDC (AKG?) off axis for vocal & his guitar and another at the floor for his foot tapping. An SDC can be super intimate. (Love my KM84 on vocals) (from The Beatles Bible) "A number of versions of Blackbird follow, most of which end with a false start. After a break, McCartney continues recording, and eventually manages a full take. His fourth attempt from this time was released on 1996's Anthology 3. Thirty-two takes of Blackbird were recorded during this session, just 11 of which were complete. Take 32 was considered the best, and six mono mixes were made before the session ended at 12.15am. The last mix featured additional bars of guitar at the beginning, which were later omitted. The song was remixed on 13 October 1968, after McCartney realised that Blackbird would sound better with the sound of actual birds on it." Fascinating
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 18, 2018 22:38:47 GMT -6
Yep, the U67 was everyone's choice, as great as the others were. I agree, I'm trying to figure out why I'm getting that sizzle, is it the compressors on the 2 bus, my natural sibilance, perhaps I'm not using a de-esser properly and then mastering brings that even more forward? I rarely use EQ at all, typically only a little HPF to try keeping the low end from being muddy. I have the UAD EMT-140 and my Liquid Sonics 7th Heaven reverb has a nice assortment of plates, but I also have the Sound Toys Little Plate, which seems to be the closer emulation to me. I also have Logic's reverb and all the Waves reverbs, which I never use. From that selection, do any of you guys here know which reverb plug and which setting might get closest to the sound of the reverb on Pete's track? Well my next thought is mic position. Actually getting some good space from the voice to the mic can be great. And then the angle can help with silibance. There's just so many factors in play. I'd do the little plate or the uad one. But no mater what eq it. I always found I'd have to eq the send and the return to get a natural plate sound. But if you did it right it's awesome. on the Pete record it's very little plate. Just enough to give the slap back. Short time too like 1.5 or less.
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Post by Ward on Jul 18, 2018 22:44:59 GMT -6
I agree with the above. Have you ever tried a TLM170? Or U89? Into a neve preamp. All the time. Anything else you need to know, fire away!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 22:49:56 GMT -6
The vocals on your tracks are way too hot, over-compressed with the wrong compressors. Then again I hear some fundamental flaws on the Pete Townshend track, it does break up on hotter sections which for me is an engineering no.. If you listen to Maroon 5 for example (like this love) there's never a sign of harshness. I know you said the LA-2A was too colored, but I hear quite a bit of color in the Townshend track.. Just like verb / delay it somewhat dissipates within a mix. OK, If you was to send it to me for mastering (just an e.g. here), I'd ask you to take the buss comp off. Firstly because it really depends on the track as to what you'd use, for the most part if the mix is correct (and not boring) I'd most likely use an extremely transparent ITB compressor and I'd never shave off more than 1 - 2dB or the issues your suffering can happen, all compression / parallel compression should of been taken care of in the mix. Not always possible, but for the most part I'd send back mix revision notes. Secondly you need to separate technicality from preference and here's why (sorry this might be a little long winded).. A lot of microphones we use were created in another age designed to hit tape (let's face it most modern mic's just follow the same principles as well). Yes I know tape got cleaned up over the years and reduced in imparting it's compressor style rounding composition but engineers adapted. Point being even a U67 directly into an ITB setup / interface can sound nasty.. Using the wrong compressor just exacerbates the issue, hence why many turn to the LA-2A to correct it.. Now I'm definitely not saying it's the only way to go, recently I picked up a 6176 and I'd personally NEVER use a 1176 on vox but because the pre-amp is so dark it works??! It's also cleaner for the fact.. Also I've used vari-mu's with DBX 160's to good effect, a retro-sta can do another take on an LA-2A from a technical perspective somewhat darkening the top end whilst keeping things intact. Personally I think VCA's suck on vocals, but they can be a good contrast as a chain compressor from something excessively colored. Also I noticed a lot of self noise on your track, are you using a tape sim by any chance? If you are you've got to be really careful with them as the gain staging for a few has to be rather precise, at first I was enamored with them now I avoid like the plague.. Finally don't be afraid to EQ the vox, sure it's great when the mic just gets it there (which in my experience happens when all stars in the solar system align) yours are definitely lacking some weight, so boost at 100 (even with HPF over it ) cut at 200 (the frequency of box central ) and maybe a bit of a boost further up.. Side note: U89I, fantastic microphone but there is such a thing as too clean.. My ISK makes me sound like Batman whereas the U89 makes me sound like Robin. I sold my 67 because of the ISK 2B, one reason is they are rather similar sounding in some ways and it doesn't suffer the same "low" end gotchas, like phase alignment issues, sibilance, it has grit but no annoying "zing".. For the price, I mean why the hell not? Two things the U67 does better, in denser mixes (like metal) it's more forward which helps it cut and you can stick a U67 into most things with decent results. With the ISK not so much, if your chain sucks you will know about it.
Oh and reverb, 1985? I wouldn't be surprised if it was a Lexicon PCM-60 or EMT (I know Pete used EMT's on some songs)..
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Post by Ward on Jul 18, 2018 23:00:47 GMT -6
I sold my compressors, so i'd have to use UAD's LA2A or API 2500 plug-ins if I want to print with compression. If I could get one of them to sound how I liked I'd be glad to use them, but the 2500 pulls too hard, and the LA2A colors too much. UAD's CL1B plug is $299 when not on sale. For that much cash, I'd put it toward a second hand real compressor. I have all sorts of other brand compressor plug-ins, but you can't print with them. Ber in mind, all great tube opto compressors are colored, REALLY colored. But the. CL1b provides probably one of the lighter and most beautiful of those colors.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 19, 2018 1:55:02 GMT -6
Carry That Weight. Love the intimacy of the vocals on that song. "... Here is Paul laying it down alone with George Martin in the control room. Looks like one SDC (AKG?) off axis for vocal & his guitar and another at the floor for his foot tapping. An SDC can be super intimate. (Love my KM84 on vocals)..." It's a hard to see clearly but I reckon Paul's vocal mic might be a KM56. (see attached photo) KM84's are great on vocals as long as you have very good pop shielding. A KM54 can also be killer on a smooth female vox as they have an incredibly detailed high end.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 3:19:44 GMT -6
@martin Here's a good example, the guys pretty much eating the mics but it never breaks.. Can't beat a good OTB compressor to turn your voice into a square wave when you shout at it from like 3 inches away ..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 19, 2018 7:43:46 GMT -6
Shadow, thanks so much for your thoughtful response. Indeed I need to reevaluate my way of doing things and will try your suggestions out as I go. I always use the UAD Ampex ATR-102 first in my 2 Bus, I turn noise off, and it gets me a sound I like, but then I often add a couple of compressors in small doses, like Slate's Grey and Red and the Logic DBX. I then use the Waves L2 to get some level. Then mastering adds to that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2018 8:06:50 GMT -6
Shadow, thanks so much for your thoughtful response. Indeed I need to reevaluate my way of doing things and will try your suggestions out as I go. I always use the UAD Ampex ATR-102 first in my 2 Bus, I turn noise off, and it gets me a sound I like, but then I often add a couple of compressors in small doses, like Slate's Grey and Red and the Logic DBX. I then use the Waves L2 to get some level. Then mastering adds to that. As long as I'm actually helping ..
When I started ITB I did the exact same thing (that's how I could tell you had the Ampex on the 2 .. Although as time went on I started treating ITB like I would a console to pro tools.. Biggest piece of advice, less if often more. Now I print a reference track (like a faders down approach) when things have been level balanced / HPF'd and IF it sounds worse than when I started I strip it all and start again.
Usually I use a Vari-mu + pultec + limiter on the two bus, nothing more (I used pretty much whatever Ozone chucked at me at one point, never sounded that good).. I'll only do heavy compression on busses and blend, I noticed a lot of ITB verbs / delays suffer bad decay rates which kinda suck the fidelity out of a mix, so I'll only reverb / delay on stereo busses (aux's) and keep the punch with the mono's.. Bass of course most times needs a limiter on the mono main but that's it and finally make sure no individual channel gets above -18dB (bar master) or it's a trim plug.
I did like the mix though, cool stuff Martin..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 19, 2018 8:31:04 GMT -6
Thank you sir!
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Post by Ward on Jul 19, 2018 8:42:38 GMT -6
KM84's are great on vocals as long as you have very good pop shielding. A KM54 can also be killer on a smooth female vox as they have an incredibly detailed high end. KM56 and KM54 are GREAT on vocals, the KM84? Umm, not so much a time. The KM56 truly rivals both the C12 and M49 in that category and it is very VERY VERY overlooked for a variety of applications . . . especially by me, and I should remedy that.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 19, 2018 11:44:20 GMT -6
KM84's are great on vocals as long as you have very good pop shielding. A KM54 can also be killer on a smooth female vox as they have an incredibly detailed high end. KM56 and KM54 are GREAT on vocals, the KM84? Umm, not so much a time. The KM56 truly rivals both the C12 and M49 in that category and it is very VERY VERY overlooked for a variety of applications . . . especially by me, and I should remedy that. KM8 series can be a great vocal mic, just takes a lot more work, staying off axis is the most important starting point.
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Post by popmann on Jul 19, 2018 12:39:37 GMT -6
Which golden chain will make my recordings sound like Sara Bareilles? I've been told Joan Osborne has a secret chain that she blacks out the faceplates of the gear so that the engineers she works with don't even know the secret. It's pretty cool, she has it where you just turn every knob to the "red line" she put with fingernail polish some time in the 90s. She got the idea from Richard Page, who pulled the knobs off his magic box of awesome vocal tone. I heard a story that long ago, John Oates sang a track through Daryl Hall's magic chain, and it ended the band. True story. Rundgren was involved--they had him relocated off the mainland so he couldn't tell anyone. Secrets were so much easier before the internets.
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Post by drbill on Jul 19, 2018 14:08:07 GMT -6
KM84's are great on vocals as long as you have very good pop shielding. A KM54 can also be killer on a smooth female vox as they have an incredibly detailed high end. KM56 and KM54 are GREAT on vocals, the KM84? Umm, not so much a time. The KM56 truly rivals both the C12 and M49 in that category and it is very VERY VERY overlooked for a variety of applications . . . especially by me, and I should remedy that. Don't forget the 53's as well. Constantly amazed by those mics.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 19, 2018 15:18:30 GMT -6
KM56 and KM54 are GREAT on vocals, the KM84? Umm, not so much a time. The KM56 truly rivals both the C12 and M49 in that category and it is very VERY VERY overlooked for a variety of applications . . . especially by me, and I should remedy that. Don't forget the 53's as well. Constantly amazed by those mics. I don't think I've ever seen a KM53 for sale on eBay, Reverb etc. KM54's and KM56's appear from time to time but not KM53's.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 19, 2018 16:54:30 GMT -6
Had to check the Neumann doc of mics to look those up. Never heard of a KM53/54/56. Tube mic with that darn AC701 tube. I swear every bad ass tube mic out there comes with that tube. Something about it..
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Post by drbill on Jul 19, 2018 18:02:35 GMT -6
Don't forget the 53's as well. Constantly amazed by those mics. I don't think I've ever seen a KM53 for sale on eBay, Reverb etc. KM54's and KM56's appear from time to time but not KM53's. That's true. I lucked out last year and found 3. I kept a pair and pointed Dan Deurloo towards the 3rd. Incredible mics. The Omni thing is really quite great with them. They are not "super" omni's like some omni's that pick up everything remotely around them. Room tone is controlled and not overbearing, while you can get RIGHT UP on the mic without a ton of bass buildup. Really special mics. Hyper detailed, with a wonderful Neumann-esque warmth. I really can't see ever selling them.
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Post by Ward on Jul 19, 2018 20:57:23 GMT -6
I don't think I've ever seen a KM53 for sale on eBay, Reverb etc. KM54's and KM56's appear from time to time but not KM53's. That's true. I lucked out last year and found 3. I kept a pair and pointed Dan Deurloo towards the 3rd. Incredible mics. The Omni thing is really quite great with them. They are not "super" omni's like some omni's that pick up everything remotely around them. Room tone is controlled and not overbearing, while you can get RIGHT UP on the mic without a ton of bass buildup. Really special mics. Hyper detailed, with a wonderful Neumann-esque warmth. I really can't see ever selling them. They behave like Pressure Gradient Omni's.. if that were a thing. But you know what I mean.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 19, 2018 21:39:26 GMT -6
Well, I have a producers mind, but my engineering is basic at best. I’m beginning to think the reason for my songs sounding edgy is I just don’t know enough about all the aspects of using plug-ins to gain stage well. It was pretty easy when using tape.
I’ll keep working on it.
i still have high hopes the Stam SA67 will help me get closer to the sound of Townsend’s track. My other benchmark is Lyle Lovett’s “Road to Ensenada”, he used a Black U 67 on it.
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Post by ragan on Jul 20, 2018 1:07:21 GMT -6
Well, I have a producers mind, but my engineering is basic at best. I’m beginning to think the reason for my songs sounding edgy is I just don’t know enough about all the aspects of using plug-ins to gain stage well. It was pretty easy when using tape. I’ll keep working on it. i still have high hopes the Stam SA67 will help me get closer to the sound of Townsend’s track. My other benchmark is Lyle Lovett’s “Road to Ensenada”, he used a Black U 67 on it. Finally got a chance to listen to the Townsend track. Really nice and sure sounds like a 67 to me.
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Post by happychap on Jul 20, 2018 9:43:38 GMT -6
My thoughts for pleasant acoustic recordings (I'm sure few will agree):
-Don't record with mics that are titled to the high-end (especially vocals). Go darker or neutral. -Avoid all plugins except for reverb -Don't use compression at all -Get pro help with learning to best use reverb -Use clean preamps, like Grace (even the Portico 511 is pretty clean)
Here's a 44 on vocals, 84's on guitar, Grace pres into RME:
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 20, 2018 9:51:50 GMT -6
Dang, that's sweet! Hopefully the Stam SA67 won't be shrill or edgy in the high end. I sold my outboard, so I'd have to use UAD's LA2A or API 2500 plug-ins if I wanted to track with compression, so lately I've just left compression out. I think my bigger issue is the 2 bus processing and simply recording the vocal too hot.
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