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Post by subspace on Jul 20, 2018 8:12:39 GMT -6
Speaking as a 16A owner, ouch. Listening to a dropbox link on an iMac's speakers from the living room couch may not be the most critical listening, but the drop-off between those files is pretty marked.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 20, 2018 8:36:04 GMT -6
Speaking as a 16A owner, ouch. Listening to a dropbox link on an iMac's speakers from the living room couch may not be the most critical listening, but the drop-off between those files is pretty marked. Could you elaborate on what you mean by drop off? I hear differences, too, for sure.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 20, 2018 8:36:55 GMT -6
Not sure I’d characterize it as a “drop off” though.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 20, 2018 8:52:37 GMT -6
I haven't listened yet...but I've been getting cold feet for sure. It's my M.O. Find something that works, then sell it for something that doesn't lol.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 20, 2018 8:55:39 GMT -6
I hear the Symphony as being a little smoother, the top is a little smoother and maybe the low mids? Not sure if I’m hearing a difference in resolution or depth/dimension.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 20, 2018 9:14:51 GMT -6
JK it seems to me you are concerned about workflow not sonics?
The motu and Symph mkii are certainly close.
For the purpose of pitching and recording Songs: what’s most important to you: workflow or sonics ?
You started off missing the apollo workflow, motu doesn’t give you that?
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Post by Guitar on Jul 20, 2018 9:42:15 GMT -6
I was surprised how different they sound. The Symphony has more "shimmer" and "space" to me. In comparison the 16A sounds a little more "old school" which could be good also.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 20, 2018 10:18:24 GMT -6
I heard the Symphony as being a little warmer sounding, and the Motu being a little less so.
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 20, 2018 11:20:02 GMT -6
I surely can't hear a $3k difference....... I ran into this with Randy when we outfitted his place with 2 16a's in place of his Apogee 16X's. What he thought was crispy or brittle was actually more top end information which after using saturation plugs or some of his incredible tube gear, really sounded great. I'm still not sure what A/D chips they're using and opamps for the 16a. Apogee uses the OPA1632 which is a Burr Brown specifically designed for converters..... pretty cool. I guess I need to bust my 16a open and have a look, problem is it's wired in and I definitely don't feel like pulling all that, plus my 16a does exactly what I want it to do so that'll have to be something I do when I truly have down time, unless someone else has one they can pop the lid off of and take some close up pics.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 20, 2018 11:53:41 GMT -6
I surely can't hear a $3k difference....... I ran into this with Randy when we outfitted his place with 2 16a's in place of his Apogee 16X's. What he thought was crispy or brittle was actually more top end information which after using saturation plugs or some of his incredible tube gear, really sounded great. I'm still not sure what A/D chips they're using and opamps for the 16a. Apogee uses the OPA1632 which is a Burr Brown specifically designed for converters..... pretty cool. I guess I need to bust my 16a open and have a look, problem is it's wired in and I definitely don't feel like pulling all that, plus my 16a does exactly what I want it to do so that'll have to be something I do when I truly have down time, unless someone else has one they can pop the lid off of and take some close up pics. That’s kinda what I’m thinking. If I want to round off the top, or warm things up, I’ve got plenty of outboard that can do that. The Zulu alone is perfect for doing that. What I can’t add is depth/dimension. I don’t hear one as being significantly more 3D than the other.
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 20, 2018 11:56:44 GMT -6
I surely can't hear a $3k difference....... I ran into this with Randy when we outfitted his place with 2 16a's in place of his Apogee 16X's. What he thought was crispy or brittle was actually more top end information which after using saturation plugs or some of his incredible tube gear, really sounded great. I'm still not sure what A/D chips they're using and opamps for the 16a. Apogee uses the OPA1632 which is a Burr Brown specifically designed for converters..... pretty cool. I guess I need to bust my 16a open and have a look, problem is it's wired in and I definitely don't feel like pulling all that, plus my 16a does exactly what I want it to do so that'll have to be something I do when I truly have down time, unless someone else has one they can pop the lid off of and take some close up pics. That’s kinda what I’m thinking. If I want to round off the top, or warm things up, I’ve got plenty of outboard that can do that. The Zulu alone is perfect for doing that. What I can’t add is depth/dimension. I don’t hear one as being significantly more 3D than the other. When I started clocking from the BLAMKIII I noticed quite a bit more depth and detail.
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Post by svart on Jul 20, 2018 12:10:09 GMT -6
No. I like the Motu files better anyway. There's less "hmmph" in the low end on the hard strums and less nasal peakiness in the high mids. The Motu sounds a lot more like my Alphalink than the Symphony.
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Post by matt on Jul 20, 2018 12:18:56 GMT -6
On my old Dynaudio BM5a/KRK 10S system in my home office I can hear that the Symphony MKII has more mid-high frequency information than the 16A. Which it should, IMO, based on the price difference. I would be shocked if there was NO difference. I also think that most listeners hear this difference as being "better/wider/more detailed" etc. I hear it this way, but my ears are easily tricked. My initial reaction is that I'd just add a little EQ to compensate for the relative "warmth" of the 16A. If I didn't have the comparison, I would carry on and mix without concern- add EQ and/or exciter, and go.
In other posts on this thread, I've talked about going with Avid HD I/O and re-upping my PT HD license instead of expanding my Symphony MKI. But I have 24/8 ADAT I/O in that silver-faced box just begging to be used. I keep looking at my finances and am now vacillating. I need a fatter wallet. And I can live with 32 I/O. I'm close to committing to a 16A. Real close. Still looking at all the options, of course- that's what obsession is all about.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 20, 2018 13:29:37 GMT -6
Here’s the setup that I’d think ideal, and please, please let me know if I’m going about this the wrong way, or if there’s a better way. I’d like 8-16 channels of AD/DA to use my outboard while mixing. I’d also like 16 channels of DA for my CAPI SumBus. Wouldn’t it be ideal to mix through the SumBus while also being able to insert hardware? For that, I’d need 24-32 channels of I/O. 32 channels of Apogee conversion is a wallet killer (and probably a marriage killer). However, a Motu 16a and a 24 Ao is a lot easier to manage.
Am I thinking about this workflow setup the right way?
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 20, 2018 14:08:00 GMT -6
Here’s the setup that I’d think ideal, and please, please let me know if I’m going about this the wrong way, or if there’s a better way. I’d like 8-16 channels of AD/DA to use my outboard while mixing. I’d also like 16 channels of DA for my CAPI SumBus. Wouldn’t it be ideal to mix through the SumBus while also being able to insert hardware? For that, I’d need 24-32 channels of I/O. 32 channels of Apogee conversion is a wallet killer (and probably a marriage killer). However, a Motu 16a and a 24 Ao is a lot easier to manage. Am I thinking about this workflow setup the right way? If you're wanting to do hardware inserts through the DAW..yes you need a lot of I/O. I want to try a rack of ML2s with TACs Advanced rack which has insert points to hardware then that goes to the sumbus. Be like a mini console. Certainly not cheaper though..
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 20, 2018 14:19:53 GMT -6
Here’s the setup that I’d think ideal, and please, please let me know if I’m going about this the wrong way, or if there’s a better way. I’d like 8-16 channels of AD/DA to use my outboard while mixing. I’d also like 16 channels of DA for my CAPI SumBus. Wouldn’t it be ideal to mix through the SumBus while also being able to insert hardware? For that, I’d need 24-32 channels of I/O. 32 channels of Apogee conversion is a wallet killer (and probably a marriage killer). However, a Motu 16a and a 24 Ao is a lot easier to manage. Am I thinking about this workflow setup the right way? For I/O I'd go with the 24's.... The 16a is like a converter/interface where as the 24's are def more geared at being just converters. The only thing is that's another 8 channels crammed in the same box so I'm not sure if the specs on jitter and conversion are going to be as good, I guess that's something to check into, maybe ask some folks here that have them. I can tell you running two 16a's is pretty damn simple, just set up the AVB streams between boxes, run your ethernet cable, 1 TB cable to the comp and it'll look at it like it's one unit, both Mac and PC. Also the routing via JAVA with the 2 units is really great. Motu did a great job all around with the hardware and software of these.
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Post by matt on Jul 20, 2018 14:36:55 GMT -6
I’d like 8-16 channels of AD/DA to use my outboard while mixing. I’d also like 16 channels of DA for my CAPI SumBus. Wouldn’t it be ideal to mix through the SumBus while also being able to insert hardware? For that, I’d need 24-32 channels of I/O. 32 channels of Apogee conversion is a wallet killer (and probably a marriage killer). However, a Motu 16a and a 24 Ao is a lot easier to manage. Am I thinking about this workflow setup the right way? This is my situation exactly, except that I mix through an SSL Sigma. By my calculation, I want/need 32 I/O, the limit of Pro Tools vanilla. I have 16 I/O worth of compressors, so I get close to the ceiling with 5 stereo stems for mixing (10 I/O) and the 2-mix/monitor path (2 I/O). That's 28 I/O used, with 4 left for more compressors, naturally. I already mix into six stems, so things won't change much for me.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 20, 2018 14:54:40 GMT -6
When they released the 16a, did we discuss it actually having better parts/specs than the 24?
Remember we had a thread about 2 years ago that the motu guy chimes in on here ?
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 20, 2018 15:05:01 GMT -6
When they released the 16a, did we discuss it actually having better parts/specs than the 24? Remember we had a thread about 2 years ago that the motu guy chimes in on here ? The 16a and the 24Ao use the same DA chip. The 24Ai doesn’t use the same AD chip as the 16a. Not as good, I recall. I need at least 16 I/O. An additional 16 AD outs for the SumBus would be nice. So, PT has a 32 I/O limit? That include digital I/O, or doesn’t it matter?
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Post by EmRR on Jul 20, 2018 15:08:46 GMT -6
16A is Cirrus Logic CS5381. Cirrus Logic CS5368 on Monitor 8, and pretty sure the 24. You can tell by the spec comparison.
Sabre32 Ultra ES9016S DAC on all I believe. 32 bit input and filter architecture, selectable roll-off freq, soft mute and volume control. Manufacturers may pick the same DAC and configure those options differently.
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Post by matt on Jul 20, 2018 15:52:22 GMT -6
When they released the 16a, did we discuss it actually having better parts/specs than the 24? Remember we had a thread about 2 years ago that the motu guy chimes in on here ? So, PT has a 32 I/O limit? That include digital I/O, or doesn’t it matter? I'm pretty sure the 32 I/O ceiling in non-HD PT is regardless of I/O type (analog or digital). Your system can report more than 32 I/O, but you can only map out 32 in the I/O Setup window. That's the way it looks on my version, 2018.4. Pro Tools HD/Ultimate has a higher limit (64 if using the Thunderbolt Native box, 64+ depending on how many HDX cards).
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 20, 2018 16:14:01 GMT -6
The 32 limit is with vanilla not HD I think !
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Post by matt on Jul 20, 2018 16:23:36 GMT -6
The 32 limit is with vanilla not HD I think ! Oops, I meant I/O type, not version of Pro Tools. It was poorly worded, and I've fixed it.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 20, 2018 17:11:21 GMT -6
The 32 limit is with vanilla not HD I think ! Isn’t it still 32 with a third party interface on PT HD?
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Post by wiz on Jul 20, 2018 17:15:11 GMT -6
Symphony sounds softer to me. I used to own a apogee duet and that reminds me of it somewhat. I would say the difference is just objective, would suit some sounds over the other. We always change,seek sounds in context of the song. So you make the best of the given sonic situation at the stage of the project. I doubt apart from workflow differences, doing a song on one vs the other would have any real signifant difference to the outcome. other than 3000 extra sitting on top of the MOTU.....8) cheers Wiz
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