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Post by matt on Jul 16, 2018 15:55:11 GMT -6
The Pure2 replaced a pair of Burl Bombers, How does the Pure2 DAC and ADC sound? I use the Satori for my monitoring and summing and that box is gold. Antelope is extremely gifted at building insanely clean and detail preserving electronics.... I had looked at that Pure2 for a while but decided to go with Lavry, but have you ever tried pushing it on the A/D side and how does the D/A sound? I find the Pure2 to be pristine in both directions. I tend to push the AD hard, sending peaks of around -2 into it out of my Sigma. The Sigma just sounds better cranked. I stopped watching the Pure2 meter for overs quite some time ago- the occasional (digital) zero+ is seemingly handled with ease and they are not audible to me. I tend to be more conservative sending DA to my PMC twotwo 8s and sub- they let me know know instantly whether distortion is present. But who knows, a mastering engineer might be horrified by the lack of headroom in my 2-mixes. I'm not a pro, and record myself and my band only, so we tend to turn it up and carry on. I found the Bombers to be less forgiving of level- they start to saturate well before zero. They are awesome, no doubt, but I decided I don't necessarily want transformer saturation on the way in.
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Post by matt on Jul 16, 2018 16:04:37 GMT -6
The Pure2 replaced a pair of Burl Bombers, which are now collecting dust. Feel free to mail the Burls to me to hold on to. I'll keep them dusted until you need them back. 😁😁😁 I'm actually considering selling them. It's a new idea for me. Selling things, that is. My normal mode is collect and keep.
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Post by svart on Jul 16, 2018 16:12:24 GMT -6
if you want to move up to the big leagues, find a used SSL Alphalink AX/SX with MADI and then see if you can find a used SSL MX4 PCIE interface.
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 16, 2018 16:27:34 GMT -6
I find the Pure2 to be pristine in both directions. I tend to push the AD hard, sending peaks of around -2 into it out of my Sigma. The Sigma just sounds better cranked. I stopped watching the Pure2 meter for overs quite some time ago- the occasional (digital) zero+ is seemingly handled with ease and they are not audible to me. I tend to be more conservative sending DA to my PMC twotwo 8s and sub- they let me know know instantly whether distortion is present. But who knows, a mastering engineer might be horrified by the lack of headroom in my 2-mixes. I'm not a pro, and record myself and my band only, so we tend to turn it up and carry on. I found the Bombers to be less forgiving of level- they start to saturate well before zero. They are awesome, no doubt, but I decided I don't necessarily want transformer saturation on the way in. Sounds on par for Antelope..... My Satori, the summing it offers is probably the best summing mixer I've heard yet. It's a simple 8 channel input with a two mix out, no kind of panning or what not, but what I really love is the ability to open the software GUI for the Satori and being able to pull down the summing outputs. Basically I can send a much hotter signal to the summing inputs and use the summing output fader in the GUI to push my EQP's. With the EA transformers and SL1731's I can push those eq's until the mix has just enough harmonics for the song. Those EQ's sound really good when pushed, with the tranny and opamps I'm running at least. My custom buss comp has Lundahl input trannies as well, they seem to add a really beautiful top when they're pushed, my Lavry let's me jack the signal from the comp up by +13db (1db steps) and I have my output knob on the comp so I can really dial in multiple layers of harmonics and volume. I was listening to old mixes before this setup and it's insane how much more dynamic, wide, deep and loud my mixes are. I'm not sure if the Pure2 has a GUI that let's you adjust it's inputs and outputs, or lets you even add some gain, but I'd think it would. I even believe there is a way that the Satori and Pure2 can work together with another GUI for when you have both boxes. At any rate, it's off topic of the Motu, but I can't speak more highly of Antelope and their ability at having such a pure and clean signal path. Also they pack a lot of features into these boxes. I believe the new Orion's and HD's have the DSP plugins which I've heard sound really amazing. Hopefully if they're having issues they'll get them ironed out, the hardware is totally top shelf. I'd love to hear the Pure2 bending at around +6db...... Svart said his box will let you bend it by around +6db and my Lavry will let you bend it by +6db as well. Be interesting to know what chips they're using in the Pure2, not only the DA/AD chips but all the signal path buffers and amps. That is one thing I highly admire about Apogee with the Symphony, they use the OPA1632's and the OPA16XX line of opamps are the best out there IMO. This is where something like the Motu 16a or other ESS models, if they're using a slightly lower quality opamp could be modded to reach that level. Also using the OPA16XX chips allows you to reduce greatly the amount of signal path caps because of their low DC offset.
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Post by matt on Jul 16, 2018 16:48:04 GMT -6
I find the Pure2 to be pristine in both directions. I tend to push the AD hard, sending peaks of around -2 into it out of my Sigma. The Sigma just sounds better cranked. I stopped watching the Pure2 meter for overs quite some time ago- the occasional (digital) zero+ is seemingly handled with ease and they are not audible to me. I tend to be more conservative sending DA to my PMC twotwo 8s and sub- they let me know know instantly whether distortion is present. But who knows, a mastering engineer might be horrified by the lack of headroom in my 2-mixes. I'm not a pro, and record myself and my band only, so we tend to turn it up and carry on. I found the Bombers to be less forgiving of level- they start to saturate well before zero. They are awesome, no doubt, but I decided I don't necessarily want transformer saturation on the way in. I'm not sure if the Pure2 has a GUI that let's you adjust it's inputs and outputs, or lets you even add some gain . . . . At any rate, it's off topic of the Motu The Pure2 has a GUI that has gain adjustment, but you need to connect USB to see it, and I use it hanging off of SPDIF to my Apogee Symphony MK1. Having the thing offline means it never asks you to update it! IMO this thread has wandered into very interesting territory. Clearly lots of us have varying experience, equipment, and taste when it comes to things technical. It's part of what I love so much about RGO- we have civil discussion with no bashing of posts or posters. And anyone who misbehaves eventually gets shown The Hand. But JK gives lots of latitude, which I also like. I started this thread because I decided to up my I/O to 32x32. But when I did a gear inventory, I realized I need more than that to do the digital insert thing- upwards of 48x48 and ultimately 64x64. Hardware compressors, it's almost a fetish with me. I was sitting around one hot night a couple of weeks ago, and realized that I don't give a shit about anything else in my life (OK, my health matters) and I'm going to make music until I die, and (God Willing) I hope it's for many years to come. So I'm going to lay it down and go all in with equipment. Maybe some day I'll even know how to use it!
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Post by svart on Jul 16, 2018 17:00:46 GMT -6
I'm not sure if the Pure2 has a GUI that let's you adjust it's inputs and outputs, or lets you even add some gain . . . . At any rate, it's off topic of the Motu The Pure2 has a GUI that has gain adjustment, but you need to connect USB to see it, and I use it hanging off of SPDIF to my Apogee Symphony MK1. Having the thing offline means it never asks you to update it! IMO this thread has wandered into very interesting territory. Clearly lots of us have varying experience, equipment, and taste when it comes to things technical. It's part of what I love so much about RGO- we have civil discussion with no bashing of posts or posters. And anyone who misbehaves eventually gets shown The Hand. But JK gives lots of latitude, which I also like. I started this thread because I decided to up my I/O to 32x32. But when I did a gear inventory, I realized I need more than that to do the digital insert thing- upwards of 48x48 and ultimately 64x64. Hardware compressors, it's almost a fetish with me. I was sitting around one hot night a couple of weeks ago, and realized that I don't give a shit about anything else in my life (OK, my health matters) and I'm going to make music until I die, and (God Willing) I hope it's for many years to come. So I'm going to lay it down and go all in with equipment. Maybe some day I'll even know how to use it! I went this route a decade ago.. turns out it was easier to get a mixer and a patchbay..
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Post by drbill on Jul 16, 2018 17:34:52 GMT -6
IMO this thread has wandered into very interesting territory. Clearly lots of us have varying experience, equipment, and taste when it comes to things technical. It's part of what I love so much about RGO- we have civil discussion with no bashing of posts or posters. And anyone who misbehaves eventually gets shown The Hand. But JK gives lots of latitude, which I also like. I started this thread because I decided to up my I/O to 32x32. But when I did a gear inventory, I realized I need more than that to do the digital insert thing- upwards of 48x48 and ultimately 64x64. Hardware compressors, it's almost a fetish with me. I was sitting around one hot night a couple of weeks ago, and realized that I don't give a shit about anything else in my life (OK, my health matters) and I'm going to make music until I die, and (God Willing) I hope it's for many years to come. So I'm going to lay it down and go all in with equipment. Maybe some day I'll even know how to use it! Just saw this Matt. Not sure how I missed it before. What you're describing is essentially what I'm running. It's best implemented with a patch bay, but it's do-able without one if you're mostly mixing. If tracking, you'll want good bays. I'm HDX2, w/ 96 i/o and it's pretty much enough. At least that's what I keep telling myself. No console needed. In fact, no console PREFERRED from my perspective. I would still have my D&R if I was doing enough tracking of bands, but I'm not, so it was only getting in the way and taking up valuable space. if I was starting fro scratch, I'd probably do it without bays. Directly going from interface out to hardware in, hardware out to interface in. Man, I gotta jump off and unplug. INSANE lightning storm and 100 mph winds just hit....
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 16, 2018 17:41:03 GMT -6
I'm not sure if the Pure2 has a GUI that let's you adjust it's inputs and outputs, or lets you even add some gain . . . . At any rate, it's off topic of the Motu The Pure2 has a GUI that has gain adjustment, but you need to connect USB to see it, and I use it hanging off of SPDIF to my Apogee Symphony MK1. Having the thing offline means it never asks you to update it! IMO this thread has wandered into very interesting territory. Clearly lots of us have varying experience, equipment, and taste when it comes to things technical. It's part of what I love so much about RGO- we have civil discussion with no bashing of posts or posters. And anyone who misbehaves eventually gets shown The Hand. But JK gives lots of latitude, which I also like. I started this thread because I decided to up my I/O to 32x32. But when I did a gear inventory, I realized I need more than that to do the digital insert thing- upwards of 48x48 and ultimately 64x64. Hardware compressors, it's almost a fetish with me. I was sitting around one hot night a couple of weeks ago, and realized that I don't give a shit about anything else in my life (OK, my health matters) and I'm going to make music until I die, and (God Willing) I hope it's for many years to come. So I'm going to lay it down and go all in with equipment. Maybe some day I'll even know how to use it! So have you decided on how to get that I/O count, or already done it? I would have to say that the Orion's look extremely attractive for the money, but I noticed it's said there's issues..... The Motu's really are great for the money, and I'm getting pretty close to cracking mine open and checking out what's under the hood, or dandeurloo modded his, maybe he can tell us what A/D chips and opamps are used in the stock units. If Motu is using the AKM AK5397EQ A/D chips and the 16XX Burr Brown chips then you have the same thing. If they're at least using the AKM's but not the OPA16XX's it would be a mod I'd certainly like to get into. But, I will say that the fact Apogee is using those A/D's and opamps it shows they're going the top of the line. I love the sound of the OPA1642. The 1612 is similar, but the 1642 has a fatter tone to my ears, so I prefer it on multi out's. The 1612 I like better on mix buss outs because of their more transparent and detail, but the 1642 still is very detailed, just not as much as the 1612. The Symphony uses the OPA1632, but I've not tried that one yet, but it does note on TI's site that the OPA1632 is specifically made for driving ADC's, so that just show's you how much Apogee values what it puts under the hood.
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Post by matt on Jul 16, 2018 17:56:28 GMT -6
when I did a gear inventory, I realized I need more than that to do the digital insert thing- upwards of 48x48 and ultimately 64x64 What you're describing is essentially what I'm running. It's best implemented with a patch bay, but it's do-able without one if you're mostly mixing. Man, I gotta jump off and unplug. INSANE lightning storm and 100 mph winds just hit.... I'm mostly mixing. When I record, it's usually to capture the drum performance (MIDI off of Alesis/Roland edrums) and then all instruments and vocals are replaced/layered one at a time. It's not my preferred method -I'd like to record the band live- but I'm grateful that the technology allows for it. With our varying schedule, it can be tough to get everyone together at the same time, and my home is not set up to record a full band. But it could be. I already own two Audio Accessories DB-25/TT patchbays, so I can always add them in if my workflow changes to require it. But they are not in use now, and I'm not sure whether things would change beyond being able to patch in all of my hardware comps as I see fit during mix. Last week I had a gnarly storm roll over my place here in Glendale. Trees down, property damage, the works. Luckily, not to me. Arizona summer storms can be radical!
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Post by matt on Jul 16, 2018 18:06:23 GMT -6
I started this thread because I decided to up my I/O to 32x32. But when I did a gear inventory, I realized I need more than that to do the digital insert thing- upwards of 48x48 and ultimately 64x64 So have you decided on how to get that I/O count, or already done it? I haven't decided yet. I've debated leaving Pro Tools, but I don't think I can do it. I'll want to reactivate my existing 11 HD license at some point to get beyond 32x32 I/O, and the total cost just cascades from there. Lots to think about, it's a big move for me. I'd probably also convert one of my rooms to a drum booth, or enclose my patio to create a sound-insulated "home theater" space big enough to record the entire band in. It's a deep, deep rabbit hole I'm digging.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2018 19:46:00 GMT -6
Can anyone tell me about the dsp driven effects in the Motu mixer interface? Really interested in being able to use verb when tracking.
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Post by wiz on Jul 16, 2018 21:13:18 GMT -6
Can anyone tell me about the dsp driven effects in the Motu mixer interface? Really interested in being able to use verb when tracking. Its not the most fantastic thing, its better than dry, has some flexibility, but not great. Whats wrong with using a ITB reverb, and having latency be the predelay, or part of it? Route the input to a track with no output, as well as the track you are recording on, set up a effects send make it pre fader, and route the effect out to your headphones... cheers Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2018 21:49:49 GMT -6
Yeah, but I usually record vocals over a rough mix with a bunch of plugs...so I'm at 1024. Just tried it at 512 and it's workable...maybe so.
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Post by wiz on Jul 16, 2018 22:06:10 GMT -6
Yeah, but I usually record vocals over a rough mix with a bunch of plugs...so I'm at 1024. Just tried it at 512 and it's workable...maybe so. Hope it works for ya, would be cool and save you some worry. Regards buffer size... I set mine at 256 and leave it there, never touch it... my Mac is a 3.2 GHz Intel Core i5 with 8 Gig ram. I actually never really top out my CPU or Memory. But I am not really ever using software instruments, and I submit things like backing vocal stacks down to stereo as I go. Horses for Courses, as we all know. Cheers Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2018 22:10:53 GMT -6
Yeah - I have lost of VIs and stuff. Actually - it's funny this subject came up because I was just building some tracks yesterday and noticed that I was running 4 Helix, 2 B5s, and Superior Drummer 3...I had it at 128 to record the EGs...and I it was just starting to be a little finicky. All I had to do was freeze a couple things and it was fine. I guess I'm still operating like it's 1999.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 16, 2018 23:34:53 GMT -6
Id go for the OrionHD. You just plug in the HD Ports into your PTHD Native interface card. No USB needed. ITs made to work with Avid and I haven't read anything bad about the OrionHD There's a thread over on the Purple site where some users are saying that the Orion 32 HD is not sample accurate at 96K when using Pro Tools hardware inserts on both HD Native and HDX. If true for the 32 HD in general, it's a shame because I would include Antelope as a hardware option for my imminent move to HDX due to it's widely praised audio quality. But Antelope users cite flakey behavior (hangs, not connecting at startup, etc) requiring reboots and more (config resets, etc). Some say that firmware updates can be risky as well. Of course I'm sure there are many people who have no issues -I own and use a Pure2 every day for my primary 2-track AD/DA, it's fantastic- but reliability on the hardware side is critical for me. And there's a consistency to the complaints suggesting that Antelope has work to do. In fairness, the only specific issue relating to the Orion 32 HD I've seen is the hardware insert compensation thing. But this is a big deal for me, since that is how I plan to use it. Just to be clear, I am not Antelope-bashing out of personal experience. The Pure2 replaced a pair of Burl Bombers, which are now collecting dust. If there were no public accounts of consistent reliability issues, I would buy two Orion 32 HDs and carry on. Or invest in Motu if they made a Digilink interface. Instead, I'm looking at used Avid HD I/O, which just works. Enough said. Interesting. Same to hear that. Nothing wrong with the HD IOs. Not the greatest converters but no slouches either. Tons of great stuff mixed with those. What our protooks rig uses though we use the grace m802s for a AD for mics
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 18, 2018 21:05:07 GMT -6
Hey, so I'm running some AD conversion tests between the Symphony MKII and the Motu 16a. I'm recording an acoustic going MK67 -> RTZ -> patchbay. From the bay, I've got the mic half-normalled, with the thru going into the Symphony and splitting out into the Motu (running USB into another laptop). I'm taking ADAT out of the Motu and running that into ADAT in on the Symphony card.
Both files are recorded. The level on the Motu is lower. So, I put the Brainworx meter plug to try and level match them. The weird thing is that, when solo'd, the Correlation meter on the Symph file is dead nuts +1, which means no phase issues, and why would there be, right? It's a mono track. However, when the Motu file is solo'd, that meter dips back to about halfway between o and +1. I also seem to have to bring up the level far more than I should. I'm about +9db in clip gain. I can see the PT meter on the Motu track is higher than the Symph, but it still sounds about the same, maybe even a little lower. I suspect it has something to do with the correlation, but I can't figure out why. I didn't clock the Motu to the Symph. I wanted each to stand on their own. Initially, I was going to just record to each computer, but I realized I only have 1 iLok for PT. I guess I could try and install a different DAW on the laptop, but I really didn't want to go that far with it.
I know the setup isn't ideal and all. I just need to make something work. What's going on?
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 18, 2018 22:41:56 GMT -6
Did you check the mixer for both interfaces to make sure everything was at 0?
Also something has to clock if your using ADAT...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2018 23:50:28 GMT -6
Late to the party but after a good old firmware upgrade I can use my MOTU 1248 with a buffer size of 32 samples (PT native) and about 10? Plugins on the go.. I do have a rather powerful I7 though (5960X) 8 core...
In the early days I did have a lot of issues with MOTU drivers, but it's a thing of the past.. AVB is awesome although if you only have two interfaces you can hook them up over a single CAT5, I am thinking about getting a second one to hook up my Soundcraft. Mixer / DSP and routing isn't straight forward, but you get the hang of it.
Sounds as good as my old Symphony MK1.. Here's the thing, a lot of world class records were created on far worse than the 1248 / Symphony, as much as I love goodies I do have to accept the real issue at this stage is the soft thing behind the keyboard.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 19, 2018 6:37:50 GMT -6
Did you check the mixer for both interfaces to make sure everything was at 0? Also something has to clock if your using ADAT... Yeah, I'm fairly certain it's a clocking issue. I was kinda hoping to hear otherwise. I'll do another set of tracks, one clocking off the Symph and one clocking off the Motu. Not as ideal as before, but not sure how else to set this up. I might be able to install Cubase on the laptop, but then I'd be putting way more into this than I intended.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 19, 2018 7:22:27 GMT -6
Can anyone tell me about the dsp driven effects in the Motu mixer interface? Really interested in being able to use verb when tracking. The verb is particularly uninspiring. You can make it work, but you might not like it. None of it is of the quality found within DP. Hey...the HPF works.....I think they FINALLY fixed the channel comp which had a ganged auto-makeup gain; it would raise gain by 10+dB as soon as it was engaged. Who really wants an LA-2A emulation as a bus compressor? As the only option? Really? In summation, I don't use any of it outside of the hpf IF I'm using the AVB mixer for monitoring......but actually I built the most ridiculous overly complex routing template to manage all possible live monitoring needs and then gave up and bought another patchbay to get mults back into the console for a B-mix monitor path. Sorry....not enough coffee yet and too early.....
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 19, 2018 16:23:04 GMT -6
Did you check the mixer for both interfaces to make sure everything was at 0? Also something has to clock if your using ADAT... Yeah, I'm fairly certain it's a clocking issue. I was kinda hoping to hear otherwise. I'll do another set of tracks, one clocking off the Symph and one clocking off the Motu. Not as ideal as before, but not sure how else to set this up. I might be able to install Cubase on the laptop, but then I'd be putting way more into this than I intended. Hurry! I have a buyer on the hook lol.
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Post by wiz on Jul 19, 2018 17:14:58 GMT -6
Here is the latest song I did on my MOTU 16A (i posted it in the SA76 thread) Now remember, every piece of audio has gone through three A-D/D-A conversions (capture, re amp, two buss) and its recorded at 48K 24 Bit. Can You Tell Me How It's Fair
I think if the MOTU 16A suits your physical requirements, and people running the same operating system and DAW as you are without problems (I only know about MAC/LOGIC) apart form the routing being complex at first, with flexibility comes complexity, I don't think its conversion is going to get in your way. Mine has been stable (touch wood) sometimes if I have LOGIC open and go watch a video on SAFARI I might have to reset the audio driver in Logic (2 secs) apart from that... all cool and dandy. Cheers Wiz
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 19, 2018 19:46:48 GMT -6
Yeah, I'm fairly certain it's a clocking issue. I was kinda hoping to hear otherwise. I'll do another set of tracks, one clocking off the Symph and one clocking off the Motu. Not as ideal as before, but not sure how else to set this up. I might be able to install Cubase on the laptop, but then I'd be putting way more into this than I intended. Hurry! I have a buyer on the hook lol. Same set up as before, I just clocked the Motu to the Symphony. Please forgive my playing, I've been doing more mouse clicking than guitar picking lately. Can you hear a $3k difference? Symphony MKII: www.dropbox.com/s/vh5tv8ryb9vjuob/AC_SYMPHONYMKII.wav?dl=0Motu 16a: www.dropbox.com/s/ajz9kbq1avea4ts/AC_MOTU.wav?dl=0
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 19, 2018 19:49:49 GMT -6
They are 24/96 files. I'd download and import into DAW for easiest A/B. Dropbox is a pain to A/B files.
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