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Post by indiehouse on Oct 6, 2018 5:53:37 GMT -6
After listening to the two files posted by Indiehouse for about an our on my MacBook Pro with Sony MDR7509 while surfing on the net. I couldn't hear much difference after switching back and forth. I think it is about small nuances not as big as an putting an la2a on your vocal channel. Symphony MKII: www.dropbox.com/s/vh5tv8ryb9vjuob/AC_SYMPHONYMKII.wav?dl=0Motu 16a: www.dropbox.com/s/ajz9kbq1avea4ts/AC_MOTU.wav?dl=0 I'm still in the market to replace my BLA 002R Signature, narrowed it down to the 16a/24ao with a BLA Sparrow(use this clock) or a Symphony mk1 16x16. It’s more about workflow differences than anything else. Take a close look at each workflow and decide from there.
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Post by petertjed on Oct 8, 2018 15:03:43 GMT -6
Are you now using an external clock, cause in the files you clocked the motu with the symphony. Is an external clock nessesary to compete with the Apogee?
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 8, 2018 18:51:03 GMT -6
Are you now using an external clock, cause in the files you clocked the motu with the symphony. Is an external clock nessesary to compete with the Apogee? I don’t have an external clock. I hear BLA makes a nice one, but I do t have it. I don’t think it’s a world of difference, but I could be wrong. I would guess micro improvements.
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Post by jdc on Oct 9, 2018 5:58:40 GMT -6
Are you now using an external clock, cause in the files you clocked the motu with the symphony. Is an external clock nessesary to compete with the Apogee? I don’t have an external clock. I hear BLA makes a nice one, but I do t have it. I don’t think it’s a world of difference, but I could be wrong. I would guess micro improvements. I clock my 16a to the bla mkii word clock and you're right, it's not a world of difference, I'd say an extra few percentage points better. but this is all a game of inches, right?
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Post by sam on Oct 10, 2018 9:15:16 GMT -6
After listening to the two files posted by Indiehouse for about an our on my MacBook Pro with Sony MDR7509 while surfing on the net. I couldn't hear much difference after switching back and forth. I think it is about small nuances not as big as an putting an la2a on your vocal channel. Symphony MKII: www.dropbox.com/s/vh5tv8ryb9vjuob/AC_SYMPHONYMKII.wav?dl=0Motu 16a: www.dropbox.com/s/ajz9kbq1avea4ts/AC_MOTU.wav?dl=0 I'm still in the market to replace my BLA 002R Signature, narrowed it down to the 16a/24ao with a BLA Sparrow(use this clock) or a Symphony mk1 16x16. I did this exact swap. I had a Sig BLA 002, and I auditioned a MKi Symphony, MKi Apollo, and a Lynx Aurora (This was about 4-5 years ago). The Symphony was on par with my 002. The Apollo was awful, and the Lynx was ok but nothing mind blowing. I then found a ton of people comparing the MKi Symphony with the "new MOTU 16a" and saying in blind tests they just simply couldn't tell. I couldn't get my hands on a MOTU 16a to test, so I took a HUGE chance. I haven't looked back.
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Post by sam on Oct 10, 2018 9:17:57 GMT -6
I don’t have an external clock. I hear BLA makes a nice one, but I do t have it. I don’t think it’s a world of difference, but I could be wrong. I would guess micro improvements. I clock my 16a to the bla mkii word clock and you're right, it's not a world of difference, I'd say an extra few percentage points better. but this is all a game of inches, right? I've always heard that clocking a single interface with an external clock is never really better than just rocking the main interface's clock, provided that clock isn't TOTAL garbage. It has something to do with the clock not being as important until you introduce a second piece of gear to, you know, clock them together. But I dunno if that's some internet magic or the truth.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 10, 2018 9:47:31 GMT -6
I clock my 16a to the bla mkii word clock and you're right, it's not a world of difference, I'd say an extra few percentage points better. but this is all a game of inches, right? I've always heard that clocking a single interface with an external clock is never really better than just rocking the main interface's clock, provided that clock isn't TOTAL garbage. It has something to do with the clock not being as important until you introduce a second piece of gear to, you know, clock them together. But I dunno if that's some internet magic or the truth. There was a Lavry white paper that was published that, to my understanding, said just that. That clocking externally was worse than internally. Now, imho, thats the "technical" answer but not the only answer. In real life its been my experience that clocking can make a big difference. I've setup tests with a room full of engineers who could all hear the differences, which were sometimes not subtle. I like to think of it similarly to preamps. We know that a preamp can have better specs (noise, distortion etc) than say a Neve, but does that mean it sounds better? Admittedly, this is a topic of great debate, and one that I only know a little about other than that there have been times when I much prefered externally clocking an interface. So, YMMV.
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Post by sam on Oct 10, 2018 12:56:12 GMT -6
I've always heard that clocking a single interface with an external clock is never really better than just rocking the main interface's clock, provided that clock isn't TOTAL garbage. It has something to do with the clock not being as important until you introduce a second piece of gear to, you know, clock them together. But I dunno if that's some internet magic or the truth. There was a Lavry white paper that was published that, to my understanding, said just that. That clocking externally was worse than internally. Now, imho, thats the "technical" answer but not the only answer. In real life its been my experience that clocking can make a big difference. I've setup tests with a room full of engineers who could all hear the differences, which were sometimes not subtle. I like to think of it similarly to preamps. We know that a preamp can have better specs (noise, distortion etc) than say a Neve, but does that mean it sounds better? Admittedly, this is a topic of great debate, and one that I only know a little about other than that there have been times when I much prefered externally clocking an interface. So, YMMV. Among the pages of drivel, one of the few great threads on GS is the 2015 thread talking about this. It seems that the science would just equate to “internal is better unless the clock in there sucks”. It seems that it’s more placebo or performance bias, or a justification of the clock’s price (great ones aren’t cheap), that leads to a single unit sounding objectively better with an external clock. But the Dan Lavry quote below makes me think he’s on to something. “It is always difficult to present technical facts to people with less background in science or technology. It is impossible to counter arguments about what one likes or dislikes. Most often, those that made up their mind, and bought gear, tend to cling to thier opinions.” I’m guilty of this in SO many ways. Yes, my 1176s sound better than the latest plugins, yes, my Neve clones are 1:1, no, how can the Warm 412 sound as good as a CAPI or a real API (even though I own the Warm). But I’m not guilty of it when it comes to clocking.
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Post by petertjed on Oct 10, 2018 15:08:04 GMT -6
So no regrets Sam for the 16a instead of the bla 002r signature ?
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Post by sam on Oct 10, 2018 18:39:34 GMT -6
So no regrets Sam for the 16a instead of the bla 002r signature ? Absolutely none. I’m sitting in front of it right now and loving every second of it! I’m thinking of picking up that new MOTU monitor/headphone monitor ditty in a few months to add to this
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Post by lcr on Oct 27, 2018 4:55:19 GMT -6
So, at 96k via USB (cheesegrator mac) Motu allows max 2 16A’s (32 in / 32 out). Is it possible to not use two of the analog outs and use a pair of digital outs for monitoring, like the Topping DX7s for example?
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Post by matt@IAA on Oct 27, 2018 7:31:24 GMT -6
I think you could use 32 in/out and still use the digital outs. The limitation is USB bandwidth. Once the stream is to the motu box you can use all of the outputs simultaneously.
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Post by svart on Oct 27, 2018 8:08:10 GMT -6
There was a Lavry white paper that was published that, to my understanding, said just that. That clocking externally was worse than internally. Now, imho, thats the "technical" answer but not the only answer. In real life its been my experience that clocking can make a big difference. I've setup tests with a room full of engineers who could all hear the differences, which were sometimes not subtle. I like to think of it similarly to preamps. We know that a preamp can have better specs (noise, distortion etc) than say a Neve, but does that mean it sounds better? Admittedly, this is a topic of great debate, and one that I only know a little about other than that there have been times when I much prefered externally clocking an interface. So, YMMV. Among the pages of drivel, one of the few great threads on GS is the 2015 thread talking about this. It seems that the science would just equate to “internal is better unless the clock in there sucks”. It seems that it’s more placebo or performance bias, or a justification of the clock’s price (great ones aren’t cheap), that leads to a single unit sounding objectively better with an external clock. But the Dan Lavry quote below makes me think he’s on to something. “It is always difficult to present technical facts to people with less background in science or technology. It is impossible to counter arguments about what one likes or dislikes. Most often, those that made up their mind, and bought gear, tend to cling to thier opinions.” I’m guilty of this in SO many ways. Yes, my 1176s sound better than the latest plugins, yes, my Neve clones are 1:1, no, how can the Warm 412 sound as good as a CAPI or a real API (even though I own the Warm). But I’m not guilty of it when it comes to clocking. Lavry is indeed correct on both fronts. Internal clocking is ALWAYS better than external clocking unless the clock just plainly sucks. I design high speed digital gear all the time and there has never been a case where an external clock was better than internal if they were both designed in a similar fashion. The issue is that cables and connectors always add noise and discontinuities that result in jitter and reflections, even with the most precise impedance matching. An external clock would need to be 10x better just to be the same as an internal clock and have some margin for differences between applications, which is just about impossible when you account for connectors and such. But all that being said, it's been my experience that people don't like "pure" clocking at all. It becomes too sterile. They like to hear a little jitter to make things gel, but they've been sold on the marketing for clocking purity for so long, that nothing but perfection will do... And then they move on to the next thing because they weren't satisfied, because they're looking for the wrong thing. And that's the real hardship in talking to non-technical folks is that they've been sold an ideal, not a product. They've been sold that perfection in clocking will remove the need to do work while mixing.. Or that the next 200$ chinese DAC will give hand jobs while angels whisper in your ears about paradise. But in 6 months nobody will care about those old things and new products will find their way into people's obsessions. But mostly, they're sold that their results will be better than the next guy's.. Because ultimately that's what it boils down to when someone records themselves instead of hiring others to do it. They're looking for pride of being able to do it better and cheaper than the next guy, which is what these companies prey upon.. Promising a leg up on the competition through purchasing gear. "You'll sound like a pro if you buy Super Tracking/Mixing/Mastering Widget 2.0" as they insinuate that you don't sound like a pro, but you will if you buy their stuff. And those who cling.. Generally those who feel the most behind the competition in either skill or money are the ones who cling to their beliefs the most from what I've always seen in the various forums. It's excessively prevalent over at GS because they've also sown a society that requires the newbies to bow to the veterans and sponsors, or risk being cast out.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921
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Post by ericn on Oct 27, 2018 21:33:30 GMT -6
Among the pages of drivel, one of the few great threads on GS is the 2015 thread talking about this. It seems that the science would just equate to “internal is better unless the clock in there sucks”. It seems that it’s more placebo or performance bias, or a justification of the clock’s price (great ones aren’t cheap), that leads to a single unit sounding objectively better with an external clock. But the Dan Lavry quote below makes me think he’s on to something. “It is always difficult to present technical facts to people with less background in science or technology. It is impossible to counter arguments about what one likes or dislikes. Most often, those that made up their mind, and bought gear, tend to cling to thier opinions.” I’m guilty of this in SO many ways. Yes, my 1176s sound better than the latest plugins, yes, my Neve clones are 1:1, no, how can the Warm 412 sound as good as a CAPI or a real API (even though I own the Warm). But I’m not guilty of it when it comes to clocking. Lavry is indeed correct on both fronts. Internal clocking is ALWAYS better than external clocking unless the clock just plainly sucks. I design high speed digital gear all the time and there has never been a case where an external clock was better than internal if they were both designed in a similar fashion. The issue is that cables and connectors always add noise and discontinuities that result in jitter and reflections, even with the most precise impedance matching. An external clock would need to be 10x better just to be the same as an internal clock and have some margin for differences between applications, which is just about impossible when you account for connectors and such. But all that being said, it's been my experience that people don't like "pure" clocking at all. It becomes too sterile. They like to hear a little jitter to make things gel, but they've been sold on the marketing for clocking purity for so long, that nothing but perfection will do... And then they move on to the next thing because they weren't satisfied, because they're looking for the wrong thing. And that's the real hardship in talking to non-technical folks is that they've been sold an ideal, not a product. They've been sold that perfection in clocking will remove the need to do work while mixing.. Or that the next 200$ chinese DAC will give hand jobs while angels whisper in your ears about paradise. But in 6 months nobody will care about those old things and new products will find their way into people's obsessions. But mostly, they're sold that their results will be better than the next guy's.. Because ultimately that's what it boils down to when someone records themselves instead of hiring others to do it. They're looking for pride of being able to do it better and cheaper than the next guy, which is what these companies prey upon.. Promising a leg up on the competition through purchasing gear. "You'll sound like a pro if you buy Super Tracking/Mixing/Mastering Widget 2.0" as they insinuate that you don't sound like a pro, but you will if you buy their stuff. And those who cling.. Generally those who feel the most behind the competition in either skill or money are the ones who cling to their beliefs the most from what I've always seen in the various forums. It's excessively prevalent over at GS because they've also sown a society that requires the newbies to bow to the veterans and sponsors, or risk being cast out. Except in large scale situations where a “house sync “ is a must.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 28, 2018 17:27:07 GMT -6
Except in large scale situations where a “house sync “ is a must. Which is what a Dante or AVB network is doing as part of the network, providing 'house sync'. There must be data about audio quality in those interfaces, with and without being networked. I haven't heard it mentioned.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 28, 2018 18:22:52 GMT -6
Except in large scale situations where a “house sync “ is a must. Which is what a Dante or AVB network is doing as part of the network, providing 'house sync'. There must be data about audio quality in those interfaces, with and without being networked. I haven't heard it mentioned. Dante is a great option but the video guys especially the AVID houses seam to like the Big Ben and used Lucid as well as Lucid clock distributor amps, I just got an email from a guy looking for a bunch of those distressed.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 28, 2018 19:40:57 GMT -6
Which is what a Dante or AVB network is doing as part of the network, providing 'house sync'. There must be data about audio quality in those interfaces, with and without being networked. I haven't heard it mentioned. Dante is a great option but the video guys especially the AVID houses seam to like the Big Ben and used Lucid as well as Lucid clock distributor amps, I just got an email from a guy looking for a bunch of those distressed. Dante and AVB have to have the same external clock issues, I haven't noticed it discussed anywhere, but then I haven't really gone looking either.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921
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Post by ericn on Oct 28, 2018 20:54:32 GMT -6
Dante is a great option but the video guys especially the AVID houses seam to like the Big Ben and used Lucid as well as Lucid clock distributor amps, I just got an email from a guy looking for a bunch of those distressed. Dante and AVB have to have the same external clock issues, I haven't noticed it discussed anywhere, but then I haven't really gone looking either. I know of one medium sized sports venue where a BLA serves as the master clock for the Dante system, but it was one of the first Dante installs.
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Post by forgotteng on Dec 30, 2018 18:34:20 GMT -6
I have been very happy with the performance of my MOTU Avb but I just had my monitor 8, after 3 years die. It won’t turn on. This is the 4th unit I have had repaired/replaced by MOTU. That is 2 24ai’s 1 24ao, and 1 monitor 8. 2 units power failure 1 unit bad connection on the Phoenix connector and 1 issue I don’t remember. The good news is that MOTU does a flat replacement for $96 the bad news is that’s 400$ in 3 years. Has anyone else had these issues with their MOTU Avb? I do leave everything turned on 24-7 so maybe I’m a bad person for that.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 30, 2018 20:05:46 GMT -6
Wow that’s crazy. No problems like that here. I had mine swapped for what had to be a 1st gen firmware issue, but never a functional failure.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 30, 2018 22:51:19 GMT -6
No issues here on a 16a/828ES AVB setup. I leave mine on as well.
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Post by sam on Dec 31, 2018 8:30:34 GMT -6
I have been very happy with the performance of my MOTU Avb but I just had my monitor 8, after 3 years die. It won’t turn on. This is the 4th unit I have had repaired/replaced by MOTU. That is 2 24ai’s 1 24ao, and 1 monitor 8. 2 units power failure 1 unit bad connection on the Phoenix connector and 1 issue I don’t remember. The good news is that MOTU does a flat replacement for $96 the bad news is that’s 400$ in 3 years. Has anyone else had these issues with their MOTU Avb? I do leave everything turned on 24-7 so maybe I’m a bad person for that. I definitely don’t want to blame the power where you are, but something might be up with that if half the problems are power supply based. Mines been going strong for almost four years now, however I turn it off every night.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 31, 2018 18:42:35 GMT -6
I had meant to post this for all us guys running 16a's or others that only have the optical for digital I/O. Not a bad price and gets you back your AES and Coaxial Spdif connections, also gives expansion possibilities. I'll post my thoughts whenever I get mine. Motu 8 D
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Post by forgotteng on Jan 1, 2019 22:39:23 GMT -6
So... here's a funny story that I'm not laughing at. I re-routed my rig to go into my old school 2408MKII through adat into a separate computer for monitoring until I get my Monitor 8 back. Everything was working fine. I went home for new years and turned off the remaining 3 AVB units. I come back into the studio tonight and turn them all on and now the 24Ai is dead. Not kidding. I'm not sure if it's a power issue because they are all going to a separate Furman that is being fed from a Tripp Lite power conditioner. Everything else is fine and I have been running this setup for over 3 years. I am perplexed. Can I really have that bad of luck? Maybe this isn't the right thread for me to be commenting on this. If so, sorry, I will stop.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 1, 2019 23:11:39 GMT -6
You got some power problems..... Every player in the game here in town that is setup with Motu, including me have never had any problems at all with their rigs. I'd find that bug or it's going to keep biting you.
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