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Post by swurveman on Apr 18, 2018 7:36:38 GMT -6
I just received a text from a band leader of a band I'm mixing with some revisions requests. All of them were suggestions to lower or rise elements of the mix by "a hair".
I asked the person to drop by to supervise what his interpretation-in decibels- of what "a hair" sounded like.
I remember reading an interview from a famous mix engineer- can't remember who- who said he didn't do any revisions that were 1 db or lower changes either up or down. So, I was wondering if people had any "revision rules" that they stand by.
Thanks for anybody's thoughts/experiences!
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Post by viciousbliss on Apr 18, 2018 7:45:46 GMT -6
Often times I find that raising or lowering by .1 db in Pro Tools clip gain is exactly what was needed. I would try the smallest increment and go from there.
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 18, 2018 7:48:17 GMT -6
I just received a text from a band leader of a band I'm mixing with some revisions requests. All of them were suggestions to lower of rise elements of the mix by "a hair". I asked the person to drop by to supervise what his interpretation-in decibels- of what "a hair" sounded like. I remember reading an interview from a famous mix engineer- can't remember who- who said he didn't do any revisions that were 1 db or lower changes either up or down. So, I was wondering if people had any "revision rules" that they stand by. Thanks for anybody's thoughts/experiences! All of them were suggestions to lower of rise elements of the mix by "a hair".
Yeah right - LOL .... please send them back the same mix and tell them you've done what they've asked for!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967
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Post by ericn on Apr 18, 2018 8:31:30 GMT -6
The biggest problem with revisions even small ones is how they effect any dynamics especially on the buses, this is where I love VCA groups! First thing you learn doing live especially wedeges is that “a hair more guitar” really means a hair less of everything but guitar! So simple to put everything but that guitar on a VCA and just bring it down a hair!
Also many times these requests for a small change are really about how a comp is grabbing a signal. The hardest part of this business is taking feedback from various levels of audio knowledge and interpreting what they really want, but that’s the heart and soul of the job So take it as a learning thing rather than a mix thing.
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Post by swurveman on Apr 18, 2018 9:16:01 GMT -6
The biggest problem with revisions even small ones is how they effect any dynamics especially on the buses, this is where I love VCA groups! First thing you learn doing live especially wedeges is that “a hair more guitar” really means a hair less of everything but guitar! So simple to put everything but that guitar on a VCA and just bring it down a hair! Also many times these requests for a small change are really about how a comp is grabbing a signal. The hardest part of this business is taking feedback from various levels of audio knowledge and interpreting what they really want, but that’s the heart and soul of the job So take it as a learning thing rather than a mix thing. Yeah, I'm using VCA Fader Groups. Very helpful, though wish it was easier to disconnect one channel from the fader/group.
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Post by swurveman on Apr 18, 2018 9:19:39 GMT -6
I just received a text from a band leader of a band I'm mixing with some revisions requests. All of them were suggestions to lower of rise elements of the mix by "a hair". I asked the person to drop by to supervise what his interpretation-in decibels- of what "a hair" sounded like. I remember reading an interview from a famous mix engineer- can't remember who- who said he didn't do any revisions that were 1 db or lower changes either up or down. So, I was wondering if people had any "revision rules" that they stand by. Thanks for anybody's thoughts/experiences! All of them were suggestions to lower of rise elements of the mix by "a hair".
Yeah right - LOL .... please send them back the same mix and tell them you've done what they've asked for! I almost did that. Still could, but I think I'll go through the process and see what "a hair" sounds like. Do you have a threshold in db's where you will not make a tweak of an individual mix element?
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Post by bartacusad on Apr 18, 2018 9:25:00 GMT -6
I just received a text from a band leader of a band I'm mixing with some revisions requests. All of them were suggestions to lower of rise elements of the mix by "a hair". I asked the person to drop by to supervise what his interpretation-in decibels- of what "a hair" sounded like. I remember reading an interview from a famous mix engineer- can't remember who- who said he didn't do any revisions that were 1 db or lower changes either up or down. So, I was wondering if people had any "revision rules" that they stand by. Thanks for anybody's thoughts/experiences! .2 usually does the trick for my folks.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 18, 2018 9:31:13 GMT -6
The biggest problem with revisions even small ones is how they effect any dynamics especially on the buses, this is where I love VCA groups! First thing you learn doing live especially wedeges is that “a hair more guitar” really means a hair less of everything but guitar! So simple to put everything but that guitar on a VCA and just bring it down a hair! Also many times these requests for a small change are really about how a comp is grabbing a signal. The hardest part of this business is taking feedback from various levels of audio knowledge and interpreting what they really want, but that’s the heart and soul of the job So take it as a learning thing rather than a mix thing. Yep...I usually have buses for everything and group them in the Edit window (or is it the Mix window...the one with the faders) I'm not too concerned with how a one db change on EGs is going to effect the 2 bus compression.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 18, 2018 9:32:45 GMT -6
I usually tell people I'll give it a shot once, but they need to stop by to close out the mix if there are any more changes.
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Post by svart on Apr 18, 2018 9:47:39 GMT -6
Most people can't hear less than 1/4dB changes anyway unless they've trained their ears.
What "a hair" usually translates to is that they want to hear themselves more, but they don't want to come out and say it, but what I find is that the translation to "engineer speak" is that the mix isn't clean enough and there are portions of it that are being obscured by other things in the mix. Usually that means boosting a little top EQ on the instruments to make them more intelligible in the mix, or cutting more mud out of it.
For me, I try to find the root of the reasons for suggestions if they're reasonable suggestions at all. Half the time the band has found new favorite bands between the time they started recording and the end of the mixes, so that their tastes change too, and drive their lists of mix revisions.
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Post by adamjbrass on Apr 18, 2018 10:27:35 GMT -6
This is a tough one, because you want your clients to be happy, but little itty bitty adjustments and tweaks can go on forever. I really hate the sound of "Mix revisions" like this. 1 db here and there is not bad, but even that will change the mix balance. Once one thing gets adjusted, it is inevitable that you will need to adjust something else to compensate this! Clients will never get this, because they aren't engineers! Mixing a song over and over is not fun. You gotta draw the line somewhere. I love when the band attends the mixing, so we can both make these decisions and tweak it as needed after the work is put in, but sometimes the band's ears are practically useless, and will tell you to do things that will damage your work. If you ask me, I would stay confident in the decisions you made with it. If you like it...if you agree with the band. Tweak until they are happy.
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Post by svart on Apr 18, 2018 11:29:24 GMT -6
I also find that the more the self-conscious the band/artist is, the more they nitpick everything. It's best to take a few days to a week between the session and sending mixes so that their heads clear up a little, and do the same between mix adjustments. I find that doing so reduces the amount of minuscule changes requested as they listen and get used to the mixes.
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Post by notneeson on Apr 18, 2018 11:45:03 GMT -6
Two thoughts:
1. Bands often have great insights, but rarely about balance in of itself.
2. Hipsters are the worst clients.
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Post by Blackdawg on Apr 18, 2018 11:50:38 GMT -6
This is a normal thing as many have pointed out. I came up with a pretty simple solution though.
When I do a contract or deal with a band to mix. I give them a quote that says, "$XXXX to mix/record the album and a free pass for 1 revision of the mix per track. Additional revisions will cost $XX/hr".
Of course that doesn't always work out..Some projects I do more revisions for the main rate without the additional fees. But usually if you suggest "Sure! That'll cost X amount" they will decide it is fine. Unless someone else is paying for it, they won't want to or can't afford to.
Inviting them over to listen with you helps a ton though. The insecure ones can really go crazy with revisions especially if someone else is footing the bill to have it editing/mixed.
I like to do the first revisions for free though because sometimes the group will want it to go a different direction than where I took it. Which to me isn't really a revision so much as a total change. Which if that's the case, I'll redo it more in a direction they want and then do minor tweaks there
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 18, 2018 13:33:42 GMT -6
All of them were suggestions to lower of rise elements of the mix by "a hair".
Yeah right - LOL .... please send them back the same mix and tell them you've done what they've asked for! I almost did that. Still could, but I think I'll go through the process and see what "a hair" sounds like. Do you have a threshold in db's where you will not make a tweak of an individual mix element? At one time mixes with vox up 1dB and vox down 1dB plus the same for bass were the norm to send to a ME so they had some variations. With the advent of ITB control and all the anal behavior that goes along with that people are tweaking things by 0.1dB The number of times, when I know the mix is perfect, and someone in the band is asking for their part to be a "hair" louder I just assign a fake fader doing nothing and move that for them until they go "yeah that's it - thanks" Sometimes someone makes a visionary decision and wants a radical change and that's fair enough - buy hey they're the client and if they can pick out their vocal 0.2dB louder then fair enough. Of course on my own mixes I definitely tweak things within 0.1dB but then again I have golden ears ;-)
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Post by wreck on Apr 18, 2018 14:36:29 GMT -6
When I mix my own stuff and listen in the car or different systems and decide something needs to change "by a hair" - turning down is different than turning up. If it needs to come down, I'll turn it down - usually 2-4 dB. If I need to raise it, I usually mess with the top end eq as svart mentioned. Just find the frequency to help it pop out instead of raising the entire instrument. This is generally speaking of course. Sometimes I roll off high or low end to reduce it. Whatever works best. You know how it goes.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 18, 2018 14:44:45 GMT -6
I usually don't pay much attention to numbers.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 19, 2018 6:49:17 GMT -6
I try to find the root of the reasons for suggestions Yeah, many times the language used doesn't match the intent. I did 15 remixes for a guy around one reverb burst in a bridge, and the perceived goal was all wrong; he meant something totally different from what he was saying (IIRC it was about the hpf on the source receiving reverb, not the reverb itself).
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Post by swurveman on Apr 19, 2018 9:16:55 GMT -6
Thanks for all your thoughts guys. Much appreciated!
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Post by bram on Apr 20, 2018 11:30:57 GMT -6
The number of times, when I know the mix is perfect, and someone in the band is asking for their part to be a "hair" louder I just assign a fake fader doing nothing and move that for them until they go "yeah that's it - thanks" The hero we all need but don’t deserve.
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Post by drbill on Apr 20, 2018 12:12:25 GMT -6
All of them were suggestions to lower of rise elements of the mix by "a hair".
Yeah right - LOL .... please send them back the same mix and tell them you've done what they've asked for! I almost did that. Still could, but I think I'll go through the process and see what "a hair" sounds like. Do you have a threshold in db's where you will not make a tweak of an individual mix element? No. It all makes a difference. Even a tenth of a dB sometimes will change things up in terms of the emotional feel of a piece. I'm super sensitive to minute level changes, and some of my clients are too. Others, they can barely hear a 2dB change. If they ask for it, they get it.
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Post by drbill on Apr 20, 2018 12:21:21 GMT -6
Mixing a song over and over is not fun. You gotta draw the line somewhere. Agreed. Hourly solves these issues. I'll only mix for others on an hourly scale. You find out REAL quick how important the changes are....
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 20, 2018 12:23:09 GMT -6
Here I sit with an average of about 5.2 revisions on a 5 song EP on one client. A bit annoying, but hey - it really doesn't take long since I'm doing it in the box.
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Post by jazznoise on Apr 20, 2018 13:46:32 GMT -6
3 revisions per mix or something is way wrong. I tell my clients that - the rough recording they leave on I try to have 80% of the way there. I'll do the majority of my hours in the first draft. Get the feedback and expect to make some reasonable changes on the 2nd draft. The 3rd draft should be really subtle - usually stuff like wanting a certain fade brought forward or their guitar solo coming up 'a hair' (usually that means to me bring it up a few dB, drop some other element in the same range or add a little more presence).
Sometimes I've found that to mean it just needs more level riding, they may not want the whole thing up.
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Post by bram on Apr 22, 2018 18:39:15 GMT -6
Kendal at Recording Lounge Podcast just did a podcast on this exact topic and discusses a lot of the points in this thread. The meat of the discussion starts around 20m. Might be an interesting listen on your commute or wherever! www.recordingloungepodcast.com/listen.html
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