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Post by keymod on Nov 10, 2020 5:22:27 GMT -6
I got my sumbus in today! wooo. 32 channels of HN2503+1731 ... this thing is a beast, Billy was a pleasure to work with, I can highly recommend using him if you are looking to get one built. Can't wait to rack it up tommorow and start running some goodness through it. wok on! Lots of nice looking hardware in that photo
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Nov 10, 2020 9:50:18 GMT -6
Ohh, Nah ... Billy left them off in case they got bent in shipping, and it came over the boarder to Canada. Gave m the proper ear racks and instructions on how to put them in. I snapped that right as I unboxed it haha. Just waiting on new rack than gonna put the sides on 👍 That's awesome, man! Nothing to do with the sound, but curious on the silver rack ears? Have they changed up the chassis a bit maybe? Damn, that's very cool of Billy to do. Not surprised! He is great to work with. Looking forward to hearing your impressions when you get her worked into your setup.
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Post by shakermaker on Nov 10, 2020 14:58:42 GMT -6
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Post by craigmorris74 on Nov 10, 2020 19:10:03 GMT -6
I don't think your Sumbus would feel the least bit threatened.
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Post by slowhammond on Nov 17, 2020 1:17:08 GMT -6
I've been mixing a bunch of stuff without the Sumbus - just ITB - because, well, these clients aren't paying enough for me to take the time to print and the reprint 3 revisions or whatever. Finishing up one of my own tunes today and holy crap. It's not really a subtle difference. Johnkenn, I’m following your SumBus story here with great interest. I’m just curious about your fader approach going into the SumBus. I assume there are all kinds of considerations and pitfalls involved. Do you just simply assign a DAW channel to each corresponding SumBus channel? Or is it more complicated than that? Thanks for all your sharing on the matter. I’ve been hovering over a 2-bus+, an RND 5060 and the CAPI for over a year now...
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 17, 2020 8:29:07 GMT -6
I've been mixing a bunch of stuff without the Sumbus - just ITB - because, well, these clients aren't paying enough for me to take the time to print and the reprint 3 revisions or whatever. Finishing up one of my own tunes today and holy crap. It's not really a subtle difference. Johnkenn, I’m following your SumBus story here with great interest. I’m just curious about your fader approach going into the SumBus. I assume there are all kinds of considerations and pitfalls involved. Do you just simply assign a DAW channel to each corresponding SumBus channel? Or is it more complicated than that? Thanks for all your sharing on the matter. I’ve been hovering over a 2-bus+, an RND 5060 and the CAPI for over a year now... I just do stereo stems from the daw
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 3, 2021 1:59:41 GMT -6
Ok cheers. So as I understand it, the sumbus loses 6db of level and you are using VP28s to make that back up. Have you tried it without the makeup? Is that level loss a problem and does it sound much different? I wonder if you just hit it harder, do you even need to make up the loss? Gosh it would be great if it was just a unity device, all in one box.. The concept of the SumBus is to create the complete 2-mix path of my vintage console. That is 2 stage summing. I have gain staged it just like my board. In order to keep the 2 sets of buses, there was no room for the post insert booster amps inside the SumBus frame. Sure you can hit the inputs a little harder but the idea is to replicate the complete 2-mix path of a vintage API so you need another active stage. To take it one step further, I don't think its the actual summing resistors that give us the glorious sound, its all of the analog circuitry that is before and after those bus R's that make the difference. Just trying to understand here. So is one channel of the SumBus (w/ pair of API-like pre’s making up the 6db gain) essentially supposed to be more or less the same amount of busses/amps/xformers/signal path as 1 channel of a API console minus channel strip/tracking stage?
Because I was considering a few VP28's to throw on submix buss and stereo mix buss to have "multiple stages" like a real console but is that essentially already what the SumBus is already doing?
Also, if it’s the iron that is responsible for the sound, is there a difference between 16 tracks/busses hitting 16 separate instances of iron versus 16 tracks/busses getting sent to a just 2 instances of the same iron? So routing everything to two channels of the SumBus instead of spread out over 16 yield any sonic difference? If the resistors have no sound where is the sonic utility in more channels? [/div]
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 3, 2021 7:11:31 GMT -6
The concept of the SumBus is to create the complete 2-mix path of my vintage console. That is 2 stage summing. I have gain staged it just like my board. In order to keep the 2 sets of buses, there was no room for the post insert booster amps inside the SumBus frame. Sure you can hit the inputs a little harder but the idea is to replicate the complete 2-mix path of a vintage API so you need another active stage. To take it one step further, I don't think its the actual summing resistors that give us the glorious sound, its all of the analog circuitry that is before and after those bus R's that make the difference. Just trying to understand here. So is one channel of the SumBus (w/ pair of API-like pre’s making up the 6db gain) essentially supposed to be more or less the same amount of busses/amps/xformers/signal path as 1 channel of a API console minus channel strip/tracking stage?
Because I was considering a few VP28's to throw on submix buss and stereo mix buss to have "multiple stages" like a real console but is that essentially already what the SumBus is already doing?
Also, if it’s the iron that is responsible for the sound, is there a difference between 16 tracks/busses hitting 16 separate instances of iron versus 16 tracks/busses getting sent to a just 2 instances of the same iron? So routing everything to two channels of the SumBus instead of spread out over 16 yield any sonic difference? If the resistors have no sound where is the sonic utility in more channels? Every channel has a transformer and active circuitry. It's not just passive summing.
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 3, 2021 7:18:33 GMT -6
Just trying to understand here. So is one channel of the SumBus (w/ pair of API-like pre’s making up the 6db gain) essentially supposed to be more or less the same amount of busses/amps/xformers/signal path as 1 channel of a API console minus channel strip/tracking stage?
Because I was considering a few VP28's to throw on submix buss and stereo mix buss to have "multiple stages" like a real console but is that essentially already what the SumBus is already doing?
Also, if it’s the iron that is responsible for the sound, is there a difference between 16 tracks/busses hitting 16 separate instances of iron versus 16 tracks/busses getting sent to a just 2 instances of the same iron? So routing everything to two channels of the SumBus instead of spread out over 16 yield any sonic difference? If the resistors have no sound where is the sonic utility in more channels? Every channel has a transformer and active circuitry. It's not just passive summing. I’m not sure which part of my post that’s directed at but I’m aware jcoutu1 of the transformers/opamps on each channel. The main thing I’m wondering is if the sound lies in these transformers/opamps and not resistors as jsteiger suggested, would the mix across 2 channels of SumBus yield any sonic difference versus 16 or 32 channels? It’d be a really interesting test if someone could bounce one of their mixes through 2 channels of the SumBus versus their 8,16,24 or 32 and post to compare sonic differences. If there is a significant difference I’d be a happy customer and adopter.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 3, 2021 7:45:58 GMT -6
@otisgreying
I guess I misunderstood. It seems to me like it should have significant tone, but haven't used one.
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 3, 2021 8:32:42 GMT -6
I’ll simplify my second and more important question: what is the difference between summing the mix through 2 channels of SumBus versus 8,16,24,32 if the sonic benefit lies in the circuitry of the opamp/xformer and not the resistors?
All the music will still be hitting its 1 instance of opamp/xformer stage for that color. Does having numerous busses of the same xformer/opamp separately hitting the tracks yield a real difference between all the tracks being sent to 1 bus of the same xformer/opamp stage?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 3, 2021 8:55:56 GMT -6
I’ll simplify my second and more important question: what is the difference between summing the mix through 2 channels of SumBus versus 8,16,24,32 if the sonic benefit lies in the circuitry of the opamp/xformer and not the resistors? All the music will still be hitting its 1 instance of opamp/xformer stage for that color. Does having numerous busses of the same xformer/opamp separately hitting the tracks yield a real difference between all the tracks being sent to 1 bus of the same xformer/opamp stage? I guess I'm not understanding. I think running 32 channels through 32 Op Amps and transformers will have more tone than just running a stereo track through a pair of preamps.
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 3, 2021 9:08:25 GMT -6
I’ll simplify my second and more important question: what is the difference between summing the mix through 2 channels of SumBus versus 8,16,24,32 if the sonic benefit lies in the circuitry of the opamp/xformer and not the resistors? All the music will still be hitting its 1 instance of opamp/xformer stage for that color. Does having numerous busses of the same xformer/opamp separately hitting the tracks yield a real difference between all the tracks being sent to 1 bus of the same xformer/opamp stage? I guess I'm not understanding. I think running 32 channels through 32 Op Amps and transformers will have more tone than just running a stereo track through a pair of preamps. I would agree, I’m just curious how much and perhaps if it isn’t as much as one would assume on the face of the subject. All of those channels and music are still passing through 1 instance of the same color. Just as all the music would be passing through 1 instance of the same very color if there was only a stereo pair. So if most of, if not all the sonic benefit comes from this circuitry and not the actual summing (resistors) then I’m wondering what difference does multiple separate instances of the same color make? Is it substantial..?
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 3, 2021 9:18:39 GMT -6
Matt is explaining quite a bit to me about this in another thread. It’s hard to follow but it seems there is an answer.
It’d be extremely interested to hear the a comparison between a mix through 2 channels of the SumBus and 8,16,24 or 32. Any takers? It’d certainly be interesting and help quite a bit as I can’t demo one, but I think others would be interested as well to find out and shed some light on just how much of a difference the extra channels make!
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Post by drbill on Feb 3, 2021 10:06:49 GMT -6
Matt is explaining quite a bit to me about this in another thread. It’s hard to follow but it seems there is an answer. It’d be extremely interested to hear the a comparison between a mix through 2 channels of the SumBus and 8,16,24 or 32. Any takers? It’d certainly be interesting and help quite a bit as I can’t demo one, but I think others would be interested as well to find out and shed some light on just how much of a difference the extra channels make! Otis - as I mentioned in the other thread, as part of your research you should search out the Burl summing box wide vs, 2 channels, vs. SB in the other site. Quite illuminating. Hopefully someone will also do a Sumbus set of files for you.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 3, 2021 12:36:57 GMT -6
The other thing that will happen besides what Matt was explaining is you have more discrepancies with more channels. As in, each component in each channel does not match 100%. The tolerances vary from resistor to resistor. Capacitor to capacitor. Transformer to transformer. This adds up. Since each one is a little different that adds some of the mojo. That's how big consoles were/are as well.
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Post by shakermaker on Feb 3, 2021 14:03:36 GMT -6
it's not outboard summing if you are summing in the box and than running that through a stereo chain ... You may find you get the sonic results you seek running a 2 bus chain for flavour over an analog summing box but it's not technically outboard summing?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 3, 2021 14:09:21 GMT -6
I personally wish the sumbus had direct outputs so that I could add those line stages and analog goodness on all my channels when tracking.
I know the VP28s in line mode or the Missing Links do a similar thing, but cost a bunch more dough too.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 3, 2021 14:49:32 GMT -6
I personally wish the sumbus had direct outputs so that I could add those line stages and analog goodness on all my channels when tracking. I know the VP28s in line mode or the Missing Links do a similar thing, but cost a bunch more dough too. yeah that would be sweet. Im still trying to do it with ML2s and 500 racks and then into SumBus
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 3, 2021 16:00:30 GMT -6
it's not outboard summing if you are summing in the box and than running that through a stereo chain ... You may find you get the sonic results you seek running a 2 bus chain for flavour over an analog summing box but it's not technically outboard summing? It’s using the exact same box but only 2 channels of it versus 8-32. It’s still outboard summing, just less of it.
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Post by mulmany on Feb 3, 2021 16:09:39 GMT -6
it's not outboard summing if you are summing in the box and than running that through a stereo chain ... You may find you get the sonic results you seek running a 2 bus chain for flavour over an analog summing box but it's not technically outboard summing? It’s using the exact same box but only 2 channels of it versus 8-32. It’s still outboard summing, just less of it. Well, summing by definition is addition... So 2trk out summed is mono😎
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 3, 2021 16:48:31 GMT -6
The other thing that will happen besides what Matt was explaining is you have more discrepancies with more channels. As in, each component in each channel does not match 100%. The tolerances vary from resistor to resistor. Capacitor to capacitor. Transformer to transformer. This adds up. Since each one is a little different that adds some of the mojo. That's how big consoles were/are as well. Totally Blackdawg, I just am wondering just how audible it really is. Based off the Burl comparison, I suspect it perhaps is less than what we would think on the face of it. But maybe being there is so much iron on each channel of the CAPI, it would yield a different result than that of the Burl comparison- that would be nice. I hope someone here doesn't mind doing a 2 channel sum vs more and posting for comparison at some point, it'd be really interesting.
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Post by Blackdawg on Feb 3, 2021 17:40:13 GMT -6
The other thing that will happen besides what Matt was explaining is you have more discrepancies with more channels. As in, each component in each channel does not match 100%. The tolerances vary from resistor to resistor. Capacitor to capacitor. Transformer to transformer. This adds up. Since each one is a little different that adds some of the mojo. That's how big consoles were/are as well. Totally Blackdawg, I just am wondering just how audible it really is. Based off the Burl comparison, I suspect it perhaps is less than what we would think on the face of it. But maybe being there is so much iron on each channel of the CAPI, it would yield a different result than that of the Burl comparison- that would be nice. I hope someone here doesn't mind doing a 2 channel sum vs more and posting for comparison at some point, it'd be really interesting. The CAPI is special because it has so many things per channel vs something like the burl. That's my point. Not all summing boxes are the same in that regard. Consoles are so desirable sounding because each things runs through a ton of stages before it even gets summed. Having worked on a few nice big consoles, it's a real thing. At least to me. And many others that still mix on big consoles which honestly a lot of music that hits the top charts still is mixed through large consoles. The sumbus is about as close as you can get to a back half of a console. If you added vp28s or some other line amps in front, I'm going to go for ml2 modules and Mr focus modules, then you get a bit closer. Silver bullet on the back end even closer. Cost wise probably not much different than getting a console. Space wise and the ability to aquire over time is nice though. I don't have a sumbus yet. But I'd be willing to bet in a blind test you could tell if a mix was 2ch vs 16ch through a sumbus. Now... weather you like the 16 over the 2...no clue.
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Post by OtisGreying on Feb 3, 2021 17:55:34 GMT -6
Totally Blackdawg, I just am wondering just how audible it really is. Based off the Burl comparison, I suspect it perhaps is less than what we would think on the face of it. But maybe being there is so much iron on each channel of the CAPI, it would yield a different result than that of the Burl comparison- that would be nice. I hope someone here doesn't mind doing a 2 channel sum vs more and posting for comparison at some point, it'd be really interesting. The CAPI is special because it has so many things per channel vs something like the burl. That's my point. Not all summing boxes are the same in that regard. Consoles are so desirable sounding because each things runs through a ton of stages before it even gets summed. Having worked on a few nice big consoles, it's a real thing. At least to me. And many others that still mix on big consoles which honestly a lot of music that hits the top charts still is mixed through large consoles. The sumbus is about as close as you can get to a back half of a console. If you added vp28s or some other line amps in front, I'm going to go for ml2 modules and Mr focus modules, then you get a bit closer. Silver bullet on the back end even closer. Cost wise probably not much different than getting a console. Space wise and the ability to aquire over time is nice though. I don't have a sumbus yet. But I'd be willing to bet in a blind test you could tell if a mix was 2ch vs 16ch through a sumbus. Now... weather you like the 16 over the 2...no clue. Blackdawg, that's why I'm curious, because of the architecture of the CAPI and its components on each channel. These other summing boxes don't strike me as that useful when expanding their channels, I listened to a SSL sigma 2 channel sum vs 16 channel sum prior to the Burl and could not hear a difference on my PMC's. The CAPI SumBus seems like it may be on the next level- I'm hoping it is- I would buy one in this case. I hope I can tell a difference, I hope this difference is an awesome big difference, I'd go for even more channels! Any takers on making the comparison? You know you want to....
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Post by shakermaker on Feb 3, 2021 19:09:58 GMT -6
it's not outboard summing if you are summing in the box and than running that through a stereo chain ... You may find you get the sonic results you seek running a 2 bus chain for flavour over an analog summing box but it's not technically outboard summing? It’s using the exact same box but only 2 channels of it versus 8-32. It’s still outboard summing, just less of it. i dunno to me you aren't "summing" anything lol, I always thought summing is taking multiple tracks and summing it down to two. you're taking 2 channels and processing it through the sum bus to another two? 2 channels to 2 channels isn't summing anything? ... but nothing is being summed, that happens in the box before. Either way just semantics i guess, whateber works ... I went with 32 channels capi outboard summed and do not regret it haha. Best of luck with whatever direction you end up going!
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