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Post by c0rtland on Feb 13, 2018 10:16:19 GMT -6
Neumann still services km86's.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 13, 2018 10:40:24 GMT -6
Nope, I'm not getting what's bugging you drbill. Do me a favor, don't try to "enlighten me", that's a demeaning comment, and your ego talking, not that of a fellow musician, sarcasm doesn't suit you. From what I've gathered, you're a respected and very experienced, highly knowledgeable member, so I'm a bit surprised you seem to take issue with my relating my thoughts and insights, it's disrespectful, as I'm no beginner myself. Not everyone has the same access to all the gear we speak of, so sharing our experience and insights and being supportive of our musical efforts is what it''s all about, at least that's what I thought we were doing here. I just happen to get opportunities to try a few more mics than many folks here, so I'm just passing it on. I don't claim to have the same experience with technical aspects of audio recording gear as many of the more experienced members here do, like yourself. Threads often veer into related topics, and when discussing vocals through an SDC, which is slightly unusual, any experience with that is related to the topic. I've only ever tried comparing the KM84 and the Soyuz 0-13 on vocals, and never gave a thought about using an SDC for vocals until Bob Olhsson mentioned it, that's why I brought it up. My tastes evolve, so a mic I find that's a good fit might not be as prized a few years later. I prefer vintage U67's on vocals, but the new Chandler REDD challenged me to consider that it might be even better for me. The harm in discussing that escapes me. We've veered off topic somewhat, so if you have anything else you'd like to say that's personal, please feel free to send me a pm. And if you'd like to know a little about who you're speaking to, just take a look at www.martinjohnbutler.com/bio-1/
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 13, 2018 10:46:32 GMT -6
drill said, "But it's kind of weird how we always end up on Soyuz every time the KM84 conversation arises". Well, considering this is an audio engineering gear discussion site, they're both SDC's, one highly regarded, one aspiring to that status, how is that weird? If you don't get it, you don't get it. Maybe someone else can enlighten you. I'm done trying.... Enjoy the Soyuz. Sounds like the perfect mic for you. <thumbsup> In reference to the comment made earlier in the thread, I think we should all promote the hell out of the Soyuz, at least until I can get my hands on at least 3 or 4 more of that "other mic"...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 13, 2018 10:51:05 GMT -6
OK, will do ;-)
Hey Brewer, sorry we got a little lost here. You're still new to the forum, so welcome, we usually have a pretty good time here. Can you post a file of the vocal you did with the 84?
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Post by drbill on Feb 13, 2018 11:02:34 GMT -6
Nope, I'm not getting what's bugging you drbill. Do me a favor, don't try to "enlighten me", that's a demeaning comment, and your ego talking, not that of a fellow musician, sarcasm doesn't suit you. From what I've gathered, you're a respected and very experienced, highly knowledgeable member, so I'm a bit surprised you seem to take issue with my relating my thoughts and insights, it's disrespectful, as I'm no beginner myself. Not everyone has the same access to all the gear we speak of, so sharing our experience and insights and being supportive of our musical efforts is what it''s all about, at least that's what I thought we were doing here. I just happen to get opportunities to try a few more mics than many folks here, so I'm just passing it on. I don't claim to have the same experience with technical aspects of audio recording gear as many of the more experienced members here do, like yourself. Threads often veer into related topics, and when discussing vocals through an SDC, which is slightly unusual, any experience with that is related to the topic. I've only ever tried comparing the KM84 and the Soyuz on vocals, and never gave that a thought about using an SDC for vocals until Bob Olhsson mentioned it, that's why I brought it up. My tastes evolve, so a mic I find that's a good fit might not be as prized a few years later. I prefer vintage U67's on vocals, but the new Chandler REDD challenged me to consider that it might be even better for me. The harm in discussing that escapes me. We've veered off topic somewhat, so if you have anything else you'd like to say, please feel free to send me a pm. And if you'd like to know a little about who you're speaking to, just take a look at www.martinjohnbutler.com/bio-1/Geez, Martin, I've got no ego in this discussion. If my comments come off as demeaning, they were not meant that way and I apologize. Honest. On the other hand, maybe you should check your motives as they come up the same way time after time - every time there is a KM84 discussion. At any rate, mics are very personal choices - no doubt about that. There is no right or wrong, only what suits our personal esthetic's.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 13, 2018 11:18:21 GMT -6
I haven't tried so many SDC's drbill, so I guess I don't have as many references as some of the guys here do, hence my mentioning the same mics, I'm sorry about that, perhaps it is limiting me somewhat.
I can't tell you how many mics and other things I don't mention because they're not really outstanding, and the people who've sent them to me to evaluate are really nice, honest people, and I don't want to hurt their business aspirations unnecessarily. Lately, I've been really impressed with the Lewitt mics. My friend's getting better results with his than the 414 he's used before. (not saying it's better, just worth trying if you want that kind of sound). The Roswell Delphos has some mojo too. The Warm WA47 is a damn good mic as well, and a great deal for the money, it has very little capsule sizzle. I've been trying to forget the Chandler REDD. It was like sleeping with Sophia Loren for a week, and then not being able to see her again. I'm waiting on trying the Stam SA67, I'm really hoping that puts my mic quest to rest for a while.
One thing I love about the KM84 is how incredibly reliable they are. I just pointed it almost anywhere and it sounded good. Strangely, my best sound was using a pair with one in front pointed at the sound hole's edge, and the other above my right shoulder. I didn't get any of the phasing I got with other positions. I used the "over-shoulder" mic as a tone control, just blending in a pinch. I would need to own the Soyuz to know if it has the same staying power.
I just remembered a fun story about SDC's. An engineer friend of mine was assigned to record the New York Philharmonic. His boss gave him his prized Shoeps mics to use. For kicks, he brought a pair of relatively cheap Guage USA KM84 knock-off SDC's, ($168 each) made in China, tested here.
He recorded the concert with both pairs. His boss and the conductor both chose the GuageUSA mic recording. I don't know what to make of that, but it sure made me want to try those mics.
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Post by brewer on Feb 13, 2018 13:12:41 GMT -6
OK, will do ;-) Hey Brewer, sorry we got a little lost here. You're still new to the forum, so welcome, we usually have a pretty time here. Can you post a file of the vocal you did with the 84? I could but it will take more than a few days. I've never posted a sound file before so what do you recommend as the easiest method?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 13, 2018 13:29:04 GMT -6
Soundcloud is easy to do. Unless you have a video, then you would use YouTube. Some guys download to dropbox, but it takes longer for everyone here to access the file, so if you happen to have a SoundCloud account, it’s pretty easy.
Once you’re ready to post the file, type in the reply and post it, then click on edit, (upper right) when it goes to the edit menu, you’ll see a little sound cloud icon, you click on that orange icon, paste your link to SoundCloud, hit save, and it shows up right in the thread.
This way people can listen to the files without going anywhere else, staying right on the thread . Give me a few minutes I’ll send a link to you to something I did where you can see how the SoundCloud posts work
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Post by EmRR on Feb 13, 2018 14:25:11 GMT -6
I just remembered a fun story about SDC's. An engineer friend of mine was assigned to record the New York Philharmonic. His boss gave him his prized Shoeps mics to use. For kicks, he brought a pair of relatively cheap Guage USA KM84 knock-off SDC's, ($168 each) made in China, tested here. He recorded the concert with both pairs. His boss and the conductor both chose the GuageUSA mic recording. I don't know what to make of that, but it sure made me want to try those mics. That's a totally different hairball than most people in studio land are thinking about. There you are recording nearer the Critical Distance (reflective sounds overtaking direct sounds), and the quality of reflections from the room becomes a huge factor in which mic wins for a given situation. If the room is dark and soft sounding, a bright mic, ANY bright mic, might win over a more neutral one. And vice versa. The #1 reason people don't like KM184's is they have more of a treble rise to overcome treble loss under diffuse field conditions, and really aren't meant for close recording. Put up a KM184 and a KM84 past the critical distance well into the diffuse field, and the KM184 will likely win.
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Post by wiz on Feb 13, 2018 16:08:49 GMT -6
I just remembered a fun story about SDC's. An engineer friend of mine was assigned to record the New York Philharmonic. His boss gave him his prized Shoeps mics to use. For kicks, he brought a pair of relatively cheap Guage USA KM84 knock-off SDC's, ($168 each) made in China, tested here. He recorded the concert with both pairs. His boss and the conductor both chose the GuageUSA mic recording. I don't know what to make of that, but it sure made me want to try those mics. That's a totally different hairball than most people in studio land are thinking about. There you are recording nearer the Critical Distance (reflective sounds overtaking direct sounds), and the quality of reflections from the room becomes a huge factor in which mic wins for a given situation. If the room is dark and soft sounding, a bright mic, ANY bright mic, might win over a more neutral one. And vice versa. The #1 reason people don't like KM184's is they have more of a treble rise to overcome treble loss under diffuse field conditions, and really aren't meant for close recording. Put up a KM184 and a KM84 past the critical distance well into the diffuse field, and the KM184 will likely win. I was just reading yesterday, on Neumanns chat site, where they were saying 8K presence peak, cause when the 84 was out, people were asking for them to be brighter....8), same capsule internally..... venting is different, and SMT? in the 184 I really should do some more testing on my 184s vs my 84 Cheers Wiz
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Post by EmRR on Feb 13, 2018 16:27:59 GMT -6
184/140 response versus 84 is diffuse field versus free field EQ difference, just looking at the charts.
Now, that may mean people using other diffuse field equalized mics wished the 84 was one also and hounded Neumann about it, not that it was a direct technical path to the decision.....the loudest voices would have been broadcast networks, not recording studios.
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Post by c0rtland on Feb 13, 2018 16:28:10 GMT -6
That's a totally different hairball than most people in studio land are thinking about. There you are recording nearer the Critical Distance (reflective sounds overtaking direct sounds), and the quality of reflections from the room becomes a huge factor in which mic wins for a given situation. If the room is dark and soft sounding, a bright mic, ANY bright mic, might win over a more neutral one. And vice versa. The #1 reason people don't like KM184's is they have more of a treble rise to overcome treble loss under diffuse field conditions, and really aren't meant for close recording. Put up a KM184 and a KM84 past the critical distance well into the diffuse field, and the KM184 will likely win. I was just reading yesterday, on Neumanns chat site, where they were saying 8K presence peak, cause when the 84 was out, people were asking for them to be brighter....8), same capsule internally..... venting is different, and SMT? in the 184 I really should do some more testing on my 184s vs my 84 Cheers Wiz people are just never happy huh. Lol
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 13, 2018 19:23:17 GMT -6
I wanted to like the 184's, I had a great deal available once, but knowing the 84, I couldn't do it, I just keep thinking how the 84 would sound instead. Sometimes one missing ingredient can change the flavor of the whole dish, y'now.
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Post by joseph on Feb 13, 2018 20:24:37 GMT -6
I think the lack of transformer, the new circuit in any case makes a big difference in the transient response. The 184 sounds harder and less flattering, not just brighter.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 13, 2018 21:06:50 GMT -6
I think the lack of transformer, the new circuit in any case makes a big difference in the transient response. The 184 sounds harder and less flattering, not just brighter. and that's apparently where you get into people liking KM140's more than KM184's. Outside of the lack of pad.
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Post by rowmat on Feb 13, 2018 21:13:52 GMT -6
I think the lack of transformer, the new circuit in any case makes a big difference in the transient response. The 184 sounds harder and less flattering, not just brighter. Yeah it's the hardness that bothers me more than the brightness. Josephson C42's are brighter than KM184's but they are not a 'hard' sounding mic.
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Post by joseph on Feb 13, 2018 22:07:06 GMT -6
I think the lack of transformer, the new circuit in any case makes a big difference in the transient response. The 184 sounds harder and less flattering, not just brighter. Yeah it's the hardness that bothers me more than the brightness. Josephson C42's are brighter than KM184's but they are not a 'hard' sounding mic. Yeah I always thought C42s had incredible depth for a cheaper transformerless condenser. They are maybe too bright overall for some things but they pull out the midrange detail so well without any obvious color or flatness, and yeah not hard either. Honestly I think the Josephson mics are the best in the world from a technical perspective.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 2, 2018 10:14:34 GMT -6
FWIW, the two KM84's on ebay currently from seller with initials GBQ are reportedly stolen several years back (and other items from that seller), and the police and insurance have been informed.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 2, 2018 11:15:07 GMT -6
That would be cool if the owner got them returned.
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Post by m03 on Mar 2, 2018 11:25:34 GMT -6
FWIW, the two KM84's on ebay currently from seller with initials GBQ are reportedly stolen several years back (and other items from that seller), and the police and insurance have been informed. I don't see the serial numbers in the auctions pics/listings, so I'll just assume that there's more to the story.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 2, 2018 11:32:07 GMT -6
far more than I should say here.
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Post by brewer on Apr 30, 2018 21:41:54 GMT -6
OK, will do ;-) Hey Brewer, sorry we got a little lost here. You're still new to the forum, so welcome, we usually have a pretty good time here. Can you post a file of the vocal you did with the 84? Sorry to have taken so long to get back and post something. Here's something I did with the km84 where I recorded vocal and guitar together. The km84 is about 2' to 3' away from the neck/body joint with my head tilted back to not sing directly into mic. Hopefully I won't get grilled too much for the reverb and compression. soundcloud.com/user-68664105/nommhardware
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Post by johneppstein on May 1, 2018 3:10:42 GMT -6
You should try the schoeps v4u I'll check that out thanks. The vintage u87 is also a mic I've been wanting to try. I'm going to GC today to pick up another pop filter, I'll see if they have any of these in the rental dept. GC sells no pop filters worth using.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 1, 2018 7:17:33 GMT -6
Which ones do you like John? Hopefully something under $50 ;-)
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Post by brewer on May 1, 2018 9:49:05 GMT -6
My kids, too, tell me I should quit while I'm ahead. Ha ha can't blame them.
Any thoughts on the technical choices, compression, reverb, mic placement etc?
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