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Post by gouge on Feb 4, 2018 1:58:09 GMT -6
Wondering what everyone is using on vox foldback.
Currently I have an old tc reverb box. I am thinking of adding a stereo delay.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 4, 2018 7:59:45 GMT -6
95% of the time I'm running dry in the monitors with a little verb and short delay in the mains.
Mostly blues and jazz.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 4, 2018 12:18:33 GMT -6
Sometimes a little reverb can be useful, depending on the singer. Rarely a little slap, but you need to be careful it doesn't bollix the singer's timing.
For my vocals I generally don't want to hear any FX as such, but I sing the first take to a scratch vocal (with a basic mix) and sing subsequent tracks to the first take. The scratch vocal was recorded when we tracked the drums, along with a scratch acoustic rhythm guitar part, recorded using the Anthem pickup.
No cans. Monitor speakers. Often I'm listening to the control room monitors through a crack in a door.
So the mix is built on drums with a scratch vocal and rhythm guitar - it gives it more of a live feel than doing each instrument separately.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 4, 2018 13:07:28 GMT -6
Far and away the most talented vocalist I work with hates fx in her cue mix.
Newbies often don’t know, and we figure it out as we go.
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Post by Ward on Feb 5, 2018 6:52:20 GMT -6
Effects make everything sound 'better' to most vocalists and cause them to perform more poorly.
Any true vocalist, singer, session singer, backing vocalist will prefer to concentrate on performance. Soft lighting often does more to help performance than effects ever will.
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Post by gouge on Feb 5, 2018 7:06:41 GMT -6
Some people want effects some dont, so I generally ask.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,817
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Post by ericn on Feb 5, 2018 9:16:48 GMT -6
Effects make everything sound 'better' to most vocalists and cause them to perform more poorly. Any true vocalist, singer, session singer, backing vocalist will prefer to concentrate on performance. Soft lighting often does more to help performance than effects ever will. Yeah I completely agree, but you have to make the singer happy, even if you know better! Coming from wedge world I always have a little delay and verb ready on the console, ITB I find if there is to much latency, verb and some heavy effects can help hide the latency , but it's just a bandaid! You also have to remember, for many fragil soles singing bare into headphones and a engineer is like standing naked in a mirrored room naked with a stranger staring at every inch of them. Some efforts can get you to a comfort level and you can slowly slip them off till everybody's good! Another easy comfort trick is if your voice is as bad as mine after a take or 2 you try to give some guidelines through the talk back, it's easier to get naked when the other person in the room is willing to let their imperfections all hang out to. Remember 1/2 the job is playing shrink!
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Post by gouge on Feb 5, 2018 15:08:28 GMT -6
Some people are also excellent musicians but lack studio experience. Getting a little verb makes them comfortable because that's what they hear on stage.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 5, 2018 22:22:24 GMT -6
Some people are also excellent musicians but lack studio experience. Getting a little verb makes them comfortable because that's what they hear on stage. Yes, that's quite common. But it may not be the best thing for their performance. It can be a conundrum.
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Post by adamjbrass on Feb 6, 2018 5:36:11 GMT -6
pluto plate reverb patched into an NPNG dmp2nw
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 6, 2018 13:17:11 GMT -6
I try to make it feel like a record - try to get them excited to do the part - but make the singer work that little bit harder.
If you aren't going to REALLY notice the ambience effects in the mix, then we track it pretty dry. Maybe just a hint of short verb to make it feel like they aren't in a completely dead recording space.
If the ambience is supposed to be a noticeable element in the mix, then I'm going to have approximately the right length and frequency response of reverb but not nearly as loud as it will be in the finished mix. I want them to hear it and not feel like they have to over-sing or stretch their notes to fill the space. I also don't want it to smear up what they're doing too much.
One thing I've found useful for a number of reasons is taking two lines in during vocal tracking. One is compressed fairly aggressively so the vocal feels in your face like a record and so, when the singer belts a bit, the vocal doesn't get so loud it makes the singer back off from the mic. The other is completely uncompressed.
I get the benefit of stress-free-recording (for me) from the dry, conservative-levels-into-the-DAW vocal. Like-a-record experience for the artist from the smashed, compressed vocal. I normally only add reverb to the uncompressed vocal. That way, there's not so much loud reverb swimming around all the time. Basically, the loud parts are audible in the reverb so the vocalist doesn't feel so isolated when belting but then the quieter parts aren't drenched to where timing/pitch/enunciation become a problem.
If I had an outboard reverb, I'd use it through the desk. As it is, I just use a low-latency plugin and keep my latency low enough when tracking to not incur any real problems.
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Post by svart on Feb 6, 2018 19:04:38 GMT -6
Verb, severe compression, high EQ boost. That usually cures all the ills.
If it doesn't, I'll have the singer do multiple takes, then do a rough comp, and I'll do a rough tune on it and have the singer harmonize with that. Works well to keep them in tune if they have trouble staying in tune.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 6, 2018 20:20:13 GMT -6
I try to make it feel like a record - try to get them excited to do the part - but make the singer work that little bit harder. If you aren't going to REALLY notice the ambience effects in the mix, then we track it pretty dry. Maybe just a hint of short verb to make it feel like they aren't in a completely dead recording space. If the ambience is supposed to be a noticeable element in the mix, then I'm going to have approximately the right length and frequency response of reverb but not nearly as loud as it will be in the finished mix. I want them to hear it and not feel like they have to over-sing or stretch their notes to fill the space. I also don't want it to smear up what they're doing too much. One thing I've found useful for a number of reasons is taking two lines in during vocal tracking. One is compressed fairly aggressively so the vocal feels in your face like a record and so, when the singer belts a bit, the vocal doesn't get so loud it makes the singer back off from the mic. The other is completely uncompressed. I get the benefit of stress-free-recording (for me) from the dry, conservative-levels-into-the-DAW vocal. Like-a-record experience for the artist from the smashed, compressed vocal. I normally only add reverb to the uncompressed vocal. That way, there's not so much loud reverb swimming around all the time. Basically, the loud parts are audible in the reverb so the vocalist doesn't feel so isolated when belting but then the quieter parts aren't drenched to where timing/pitch/enunciation become a problem. If I had an outboard reverb, I'd use it through the desk. As it is, I just use a low-latency plugin and keep my latency low enough when tracking to not incur any real problems. What makes you think that "smashing" the vocal makes it "sound like a record"? To me, excessive compression makes things sound small, dead, and uninteresting most of the time. And why do you eliminate ambience when tracking only to add fake "ambience" in later? When I track vocals I generally use a somewhat liveish environment. If it doesn't sound right the first time (although it nearly always does) I do it over. If I add electronic reverb and/or delay in the mix it's as an effect, not to "make up for" something that should have been there in the first place. And what's this about "stress free recording"? Isn't recording fun for you? This tells me that you don't know how to use reverb on a vocal. You don't use it on an insert. You don't keep a constant reverb level - that screams "amateur". You send the vocal to a reverb buss and return through a channel, the use the fader to ride the gain on the channel so it doesn't muddy up the vocal. You can also delay the input to the reverb a bit, which can help keep it out of the way. And electronic reverb is not a substitute for natural ambience. Because I have yet to hear any electronic reverb that sounds natural. EDIT: Note that these comments refer to matters related to what you print during tracking and mixing, as that appears to be what you're talking about in the post I responded to. It does not appear to me that you were sticking to simply FX in the foldback to help the singer - I certainly would not do those things you brought up to the singer's monitor feed, be it cans or monitors. I would DEFINITELY not compress the vocal heavily (or at all) in the monitor feed - some singers would shoot you if you did that.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 6, 2018 21:34:50 GMT -6
I use a bit of reverb in the cans with a pre-delay around 35- 150, depending on the track, but I don't print. I've stopped using compression too. I like a little room sound myself, but not too much because my room sucks. I like a good amount of room on guitars though. I've leaned away from direct micing electric guitars and put them back a bit now. People don't hear a guitar with their heads in front of the cabinet, it doesn't sound as real that way.
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 7, 2018 11:09:20 GMT -6
I try to make it feel like a record - try to get them excited to do the part - but make the singer work that little bit harder. If you aren't going to REALLY notice the ambience effects in the mix, then we track it pretty dry. Maybe just a hint of short verb to make it feel like they aren't in a completely dead recording space. If the ambience is supposed to be a noticeable element in the mix, then I'm going to have approximately the right length and frequency response of reverb but not nearly as loud as it will be in the finished mix. I want them to hear it and not feel like they have to over-sing or stretch their notes to fill the space. I also don't want it to smear up what they're doing too much. One thing I've found useful for a number of reasons is taking two lines in during vocal tracking. One is compressed fairly aggressively so the vocal feels in your face like a record and so, when the singer belts a bit, the vocal doesn't get so loud it makes the singer back off from the mic. The other is completely uncompressed. I get the benefit of stress-free-recording (for me) from the dry, conservative-levels-into-the-DAW vocal. Like-a-record experience for the artist from the smashed, compressed vocal. I normally only add reverb to the uncompressed vocal. That way, there's not so much loud reverb swimming around all the time. Basically, the loud parts are audible in the reverb so the vocalist doesn't feel so isolated when belting but then the quieter parts aren't drenched to where timing/pitch/enunciation become a problem. If I had an outboard reverb, I'd use it through the desk. As it is, I just use a low-latency plugin and keep my latency low enough when tracking to not incur any real problems. What makes you think that "smashing" the vocal makes it "sound like a record"? To me, excessive compression makes things sound small, dead, and uninteresting most of the time. And why do you eliminate ambience when tracking only to add fake "ambience" in later? When I track vocals I generally use a somewhat liveish environment. If it doesn't sound right the first time (although it nearly always does) I do it over. If I add electronic reverb and/or delay in the mix it's as an effect, not to "make up for" something that should have been there in the first place. And what's this about "stress free recording"? Isn't recording fun for you? This tells me that you don't know how to use reverb on a vocal. You don't use it on an insert. You don't keep a constant reverb level - that screams "amateur". You send the vocal to a reverb buss and return through a channel, the use the fader to ride the gain on the channel so it doesn't muddy up the vocal. You can also delay the input to the reverb a bit, which can help keep it out of the way. And electronic reverb is not a substitute for natural ambience. Because I have yet to hear any electronic reverb that sounds natural. EDIT: Note that these comments refer to matters related to what you print during tracking and mixing, as that appears to be what you're talking about in the post I responded to. It does not appear to me that you were sticking to simply FX in the foldback to help the singer - I certainly would not do those things you brought up to the singer's monitor feed, be it cans or monitors. I would DEFINITELY not compress the vocal heavily (or at all) in the monitor feed - some singers would shoot you if you did that. We're talking tracking here. This whole thread is talking tracking. Definitely not mixing. I mentioned mixing because I'm tracking in a manner that will make the singer feel like they're in the record already rather than waiting for it to be done. Tracking. Reverbs are on auxes, fear not. No amateur here. AND they're not being printed. Just making the singer feel more like they're in a room rather than in headphones. Why headphones? I tried the sing-with-monitors on with a number of the vocalists that come in. They're often not able to hear the monitors well when they're screaming their fucking heads off or hear themselves well when they're whispering and literally crying into my mics. What makes me think that compressed vocals sound like a record? Because that's what modern records sound like. You know, modern records: like 90% of everything from the Beatles through the stuff being released this Friday. Especially the harder rock genres I've been working in. Where have you been that vocals aren't getting compressed? I'm hitting 'em like 8db of gain reduction on the loudest stuff going in. Sometimes more if they really blast something. If the singer needs it we'll blend some uncompressed stuff back in to their headphones but most of the times the feedback I get when I don't compress hard is "the vocals in my headphones are too loud when I sing loud and too quiet when I sing quiet." Compression solves that problem and gets me closer to sounding like a modern record. Why eliminate natural ambience? Because the ambience in my room doesn't sound great for vocals. Simple. I don't have your obviously amazing room. But even people who DO have access to amazing spaces use non-natural reverb. I'll be sure to call Joe Chiccarelli, Greg Wells, Eric Valentine, Tchad Blake, Joey Sturgis, Daniel Bergstrand, Taylor Larson, Andrew Wade and Jacquire King to let them know they've been doing reverb wrong and they should have just captured it in the room on the mic with the singer at the time they sang it. I'm sure you'd be happy to present your major label-released mixes to compare to theirs so we can pick their mixes apart and unanimously decide all of your mixes tower triumphant over all of theirs not only because of your superior taste and intuition with sounds, tones, and balances but also because your tracking day decisions (which we've established are nearly always perfect on the first take), lack of compression, and your ambience choices are always better than theirs. Recording is fun as hell for me. BUT, I don't need to be worrying about "did I the singer leaning into that high, intense vocal part during the bridge clip my converters" when I'm trying to connect with them on an emotional level and help them get a performance. Then, when these amateur-to-part-time musicians finally nail their vocal take, I don't want to deal with telling them they have to do it over because they leaned in instead of out and clipped the input. If I don't have to worry about it - I'm not stressed about it. No stress = stress free.
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Post by drsax on Feb 7, 2018 11:56:08 GMT -6
I use a plate around 1.5s, a Hall around 2-2.6s depending on the song and sometimes a touch of delay. I tweak the blend and balance between the two verbs depending on the song and what makes the artist happy while they are tracking. Rarely do I need anything else. When tracking vocals I also often record with a hardware comp after the preamp (usually an ADL1500) just to grab the loudest peaks.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 7, 2018 13:37:00 GMT -6
We're talking tracking here. This whole thread is talking tracking. Definitely not mixing. I mentioned mixing because I'm tracking in a manner that will make the singer feel like they're in the record already rather than waiting for it to be done. Tracking. And I though the thread was about enhancing headphone feeds. Maybe you should think about just helping the singer sing the song? Well, then you're probably not doing it right. But yeah, I get it - lots of singers are used to cans. In spite of the fact that cans cause as many problems as they solve. I do always use cans for drummers..... Whatever. Most of the time that approach gives me ear fatigue. And it was not "the way it's done" going back to the Beatles. The Beatles did it occasionally FOR EFFECT. When you do something "for effect" all the time it loses its effect-iveness. It actually didn't become "de rigeur" until relatively recently - about the time I started to stop listening to that kind of stuff due to lack of interest. And did you ever stop to think that if you're always smashing the vocal into the phones the singer really doesn't have any bloody idea of what they're really doing? Not to mention that such an approach often fosters less than perfect pitch. My room isn't that amazing - it's just a good sounding residential build with no treatment or build-out, that I vetted for decent sound before signing the lease. Second one in a row I've chosen that way. Since I have to rent I really can't do any build-out. You just have to know how to work with what you've got and avoid anything that's obviously unsuitable from the get-go. IMO most of the problem people have with room sound is largely caused by mics with poor off axis response that makes decent sounding ambience sound crappy. If it sounds good in the room naturally it should sound good recorded unless you're doing something wrong. First, you ain't them. Second, you can't believe everything you hear on the internet. I'm sure they use electronic reverb - everybody does, myself included. It's HOW you use it and what you use it for that's the question. I happen to love my reverbs and delays. I have a Lexi PCM90 with the extra card, a crappy little Alesis microverb that I got for doing small live gigs but has actually seen a little studio use, and a pair of old ("vintage" ha-ha) Roland SDE-1000 delays that I love dearly. If I could afford it I'd have an M-7. But I also have learned when NOT to use them and how to keep my reverbs from mucking things up. Werll, unless you're working sessions with a proper producer to coach your singers the responsibility falls on you to explain the rudiments of decent mic technique to them - that you lean OUT on the loud parts and IN on the quiet, whispery ones, not vice-versa. This is assuming you actually know something about mic technique. Smashing everything with excessive compression is not the answer. (Not to mention that if there are any sibilance issues at all compression will make them MUCH worse.) If they lean in and clip your converters have 'em do it over until they get it right. Hey, I'm not the greatest singer in the world (that would be Roy Orbison and I'd bet you good money that HE didn't sing into compression) but somehow I still manage to have good mic technique - it's really not that hard. Watch some live videos of Elvis - that's a good place to start. Sinatra. Streisand. Diana Ross.
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Post by svart on Feb 7, 2018 14:31:36 GMT -6
Is what I see everytime Johnnycakeseppstein responds to something.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 7, 2018 14:52:07 GMT -6
Maybe one day we'll get to hear these amazing techniques and skill in action...
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 7, 2018 17:07:05 GMT -6
I just typed up and deleted a whole line-by-line novel. A summary: I literally bring up helping the singer sing the song in my post. I DO tell them how to lean out when getting loud and lean in when quiet. I DO know a fair bit regarding mic technique for vocalists. The sibilance and over-compression problems are EXACTLY WHY I also record an uncompressed vocal just in case it does end up going too far. I'm not doing the singer-in-a-room-with-the-monitors thing right? Cool. How do I do it right? I'd love if you could tell me how to get a singer who's putting an emotional performance into a hardcore song feel like he's hearing himself the way he wants to be heard when he's screaming his face off...WITHOUT compromising the fact that the vocal HAS to be compressed to sound up front over the wall of guitars and drums in the mix. I've tried just letting the bleed exist. I've tried the polarity flip trick. None of them have given me clean enough vocals to put 'em in your face in the eventual mix. I'm not in the business of torturing my clients to ring every cent out and pull the most time out of them. It doesn't benefit me to say "hey, I'm going to need you to do that a tenth time." There's no way a tenth performance in a single day of something physically draining is going to have better energy than the second take. I'd rather save the day and say "you fuckin' nailed it" because I had a compressed version than have to say "oh, sorry, when you had your eyes closed you leaned forward and {a technical thing they don't care about} . Do you mind conjuring the image of your dying mother again?" I'm trying to get records made for these people. As the producer, when I sense they can't beat the best take we move on.
I ain't them {fantastic producers/engineers/mixers I mentioned}? You're absolutely right, I'm not any of those seriously amazing music craftsmen. I'm also not suggesting I am.
...and don't give me your "GS style snark redacted" garbage. You're the one positioning yourself as though you're an authority. In thread after thread all over this site, you dismissively tell people at varying career levels they're doing something wrong and implying that you're right. Back it up. Prove it to us. We'd all love to grow and improve this music thing we're doing. How can we all understand the things you're saying if you're not providing the example of things done in a proper fashion? Of course, I'd love to see the work you present as examples based in the modern harder rock genres I often work in - the perspective from which I present my opinions and thoughts - for my own selfish educational reasons.
Truthfully, I'd love to make music that sounds as good as your history of musings and opinions on this site implies yours is. I also don't doubt that you've done some really great stuff. A person can't care about these things as much as you obviously do if they're absolutely terrible at it.
I'd worship the ground you walk on, kiss your feet, clean your toilets, and pick the maggots out of your beard if you could take the musicians that walk into my studio and turn them into Mastodon or Wage War using the techniques you present as the correct way of doing things.
I guess I need to take a break from this site. Eppstein rubs me the wrong way and I'm not about to drag the anger he causes me into my booked-every-day studio.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 7, 2018 20:47:35 GMT -6
I just typed up and deleted a whole line-by-line novel. A summary: I literally bring up helping the singer sing the song in my post. I DO tell them how to lean out when getting loud and lean in when quiet. I DO know a fair bit regarding mic technique for vocalists. The sibilance and over-compression problems are EXACTLY WHY I also record an uncompressed vocal just in case it does end up going too far. I'm not doing the singer-in-a-room-with-the-monitors thing right? Cool. How do I do it right? I'd love if you could tell me how to get a singer who's putting an emotional performance into a hardcore song feel like he's hearing himself the way he wants to be heard when he's screaming his face off...WITHOUT compromising the fact that the vocal HAS to be compressed to sound up front over the wall of guitars and drums in the mix. I've tried just letting the bleed exist. I've tried the polarity flip trick. None of them have given me clean enough vocals to put 'em in your face in the eventual mix. I'm not in the business of torturing my clients to ring every cent out and pull the most time out of them. It doesn't benefit me to say "hey, I'm going to need you to do that a tenth time." There's no way a tenth performance in a single day of something physically draining is going to have better energy than the second take. I'd rather save the day and say "you fuckin' nailed it" because I had a compressed version than have to say "oh, sorry, when you had your eyes closed you leaned forward and {a technical thing they don't care about} . Do you mind conjuring the image of your dying mother again?" I'm trying to get records made for these people. As the producer, when I sense they can't beat the best take we move on.
I ain't them {fantastic producers/engineers/mixers I mentioned}? You're absolutely right, I'm not any of those seriously amazing music craftsmen. I'm also not suggesting I am.
...and don't give me your "GS style snark redacted" garbage. You're the one positioning yourself as though you're an authority. In thread after thread all over this site, you dismissively tell people at varying career levels they're doing something wrong and implying that you're right. Back it up. Prove it to us. We'd all love to grow and improve this music thing we're doing. How can we all understand the things you're saying if you're not providing the example of things done in a proper fashion? Of course, I'd love to see the work you present as examples based in the modern harder rock genres I often work in - the perspective from which I present my opinions and thoughts - for my own selfish educational reasons.
Truthfully, I'd love to make music that sounds as good as your history of musings and opinions on this site implies yours is. I also don't doubt that you've done some really great stuff. A person can't care about these things as much as you obviously do if they're absolutely terrible at it.
I'd worship the ground you walk on, kiss your feet, clean your toilets, and pick the maggots out of your beard if you could take the musicians that walk into my studio and turn them into Mastodon or Wage War using the techniques you present as the correct way of doing things.
I guess I need to take a break from this site. Eppstein rubs me the wrong way and I'm not about to drag the anger he causes me into my booked-every-day studio.You know, i'm tired of people who won't even consider that there might be an alternate way to do something, or, oh, why bother.... However, a couple of parting thoughts..... I wouldn't try to turn them into Mastodon or War Wage. I'd listen to what they have to offer and see what develops. We already have Mastodon and War Wage. ***************** The way to do the "singing with monitors" thing with a really loud sort of band is to use a small PA system in the live room. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But if you want the singer to feel like he's onstage it's worth a try. Have a good night. Here, have a couple aspirin and some Tums.... You probably wouldn't like my music these days, it's not noisy enough. However what I was doing 25-35 years ago is a different story.
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Post by adamjbrass on Feb 8, 2018 6:04:36 GMT -6
crushing vocals makes them better 98% of the time here. Def "like a record". compression helps, if done properly with "great compression"
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Post by Ward on Feb 8, 2018 8:10:20 GMT -6
crushing vocals makes them better 98% of the time here. Def "like a record". compression helps, if done properly with "great compression" I know you're right, wth regards to all your experiences... If I could add only one thing it would be: The greater the level of experience and developed natural talent, the less desire there is for compression, reverb or anything else - from the talent.
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 8, 2018 10:26:18 GMT -6
You know, i'm tired of people who won't even consider that there might be an alternate way to do something, or, oh, why bother.... However, a couple of parting thoughts..... I wouldn't try to turn them into Mastodon or War Wage. I'd listen to what they have to offer and see what develops. We already have Mastodon and War Wage. ***************** The way to do the "singing with monitors" thing with a really loud sort of band is to use a small PA system in the live room. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But if you want the singer to feel like he's onstage it's worth a try. Have a good night. Here, have a couple aspirin and some Tums.... You probably wouldn't like my music these days, it's not noisy enough. However what I was doing 25-35 years ago is a different story. Hey, John! No aspirin or Tums for me! Just a couple recording sessions that included some programmed strings (real players are coming in later...I'm stoked to record a violin again), some tribal-esque toms, and some vocals. ...then I mixed until 3:30am my time. Six hours ago. Did some sleeping and now I've been at my day job for two hours. I'm refreshed! Back to our discussion! I ALSO hate when people won't consider that there might be an alternate way of working. Luckily, I'm not one of those people. I often try different ways of working. Alternate methods of just recording (not even including songwriting, mixing, and mastering) I've focused on recently: 1. "Move the mics further back off guitar cabs." Everyone working in hardcore/metal says push 'em up on the grill. I backed 'em off based on advice given here and elsewhere. Mixed results. I got much better results from another new-to-me mic'ing technique called the Fredman technique. Two 57s as close to each other as possible right up on the grill. One on-axis and one at 45º off-axis "looking" across the front of the other mic. The phase cancellation just happens to be right in that fizz range of distorted guitars. Really great! 2. "Set up fewer mics on drums." That's a thing you told me a while back saying I was having phase cancellation problems (but then wouldn't tell me what you were hearing to make you say that). I didn't ever end up getting results with the impact I need. I ended up having to - mid-session - set up three extra mics (two toms and a second room). After making him play it a bunch of times the drummer just couldn't get the toms to speak clearly enough on his 16th note doubles alternating between the kick and floor tom. Added room mic for the space and spread and added close mics for the punch. 3. "Track the band live together." They thought they could nail it. A common thought is that bands will sound better and it will result in more energy in the track. Cue 3 hours of drum editing on a 6 minute song with busy drums and 2 hours of drum and bass editing on the 3 minute song. All guitars are unuseable. The drummer sounded seasick and the guitar/bass tracks were't tight enough. The physical and mental demands of the parts tightly enough for the genre weren't conducive to everyone nailing it all at the same time. 4. "Don't tune vocals." I had a fairly gifted singer in recently doing an acoustic thing. So many people are always saying "make 'em sing it again, don't tune it." I want my records to sound good so I gave it a shot. Well, she just couldn't hit a lower register part. We tried probably 16 times before she resigned to not hitting it and started looking for an alternate vocal line (I already had one in my back pocket). We tried some alternate lines. On pitch? Yep. Did it feel right? Nope. Tuned the low stuff and all the sudden I'm a genius and saved the day. 5. In fact, I tried your "no-compression-in-the-headphones" thing last night. The singer kept holding back on all the intense stuff. They ended up asking me to lower their vocal in their headphones then - without telling me - pullled a headphone half off (so they could still hear themselves) and ruined a number of their takes with some super phasey and super loud (headphones cranked up at their request) bleed. The takes we needed for the emotional crest of the song were in the garbage and the vocalist was dead tired. A vocal session half-ruined by me following your advice. Of course, I could have possibly been doing it wrong. How would I improve the no-compression-in-the-headphones thing? No snark. No attitude. I'd love to find a better method of working. I'm looking at 12db swings in dynamics at the microphone mid-verse. Don't be so difficult, now. You KNOW I wasn't saying to turn them into literal clones of those bands. But, those are the bands - stylistically - that get pointed at a lot as "steer us in this direction." Your argument for me not doing what I can to make them sound as big and and punchy as those bands is "those bands already exist?" Tell that to the bands that come in. They have 100 different bands on their phones that all sound similar Wage War yet all sound different to them. I'm not interested in telling artists their vision, passion, and/or intention isn't valid. I'd LOVE to hear your music. This isn't me being snarky or shitty. I'd honestly love to hear it. One of my favorite records lately has been Melanie's "Gather Me." "Brand New Key" is a great song - sure - but "Ring the Living Bell" floored me. Top to bottom, that's an amazing record. Something a fair bit more modern but blew me away in the same way was and album by The Wooden Birds called "Two Matchsticks." I'd also love to hear your noisy stuff. Truly, no snark. I'm not opposed to looking back for inspiration or just good listening. Most of my clients are looking to make modern-sounding stuff so that's what I focus on creating. ...but then there's that dismissive thing again. You say "you probably wouldn't like my music" then imply that your music isn't bad enough for my taste. Man, you can't stop it can you? Why do you think that you have to belittle others whether they deserve it or not? By now I definitely deserve a little of it - I've had some swipes at you in response to what you've said. But even your basic interactions with others - people who have done nothing to provoke you - you jab at, denigrate, dismiss, and posture authority over. Why is that? johneppstein (and others who've had to witness this - sorry!), I am trying to connect and interact with people on a human level who do this thing I love. This new world of making music on computers, unfortunately often remotely, with fewer people around makes finding community hard. Add into that my less-than-ideal-location where music isn't pouring from every pore of the city and all the sudden there is very little community to be found. I come here to chat, bounce ideas back and forth, live vicariously through others who have a much larger gear budget than I, and try to learn from others experiences. I don't doubt that you have a great deal of experience and an endless number of fantastic stories from your more than 35 years making music. Some of the things you've said on the site are brilliant. Your advice to me on my free-standing angled wall idea was helpful. The manner in which you delivered it - draped in the cloak of superiority - left quite a bit to be desired. We've been on the wrong foot since we've started interacting. I sincerely apologize for my role in that. I push back against people and I'm aware that sometimes I push too hard. I'm also not solely at fault here. I don't accept a world that doesn't include assumed mutual respect - even to those who haven't been alive as long as I've been doing something. I apologize for anything I've said that was hurtful or made you feel less-than-respected.
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Post by Ward on Feb 8, 2018 11:00:48 GMT -6
schmalzy you are a gentleman... even sounding positively charitable, almost Christian in your grace you've exhibited there.
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