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Post by jeromemason on Feb 6, 2018 3:19:13 GMT -6
It's good to see the motion of using those available pins on the 500 card to be used to transmit those pesky 1's and 0's though. Pioneering this kind of thing lays the ground work for some of the bad ass DIY guys to create and open source framework, and hopefully the big manufacturers will adopt it and a standard will be created. The digital encoders used as pots and the processing should only take a small area of real estate on most 500 circuits. I told someone the other day that sent me links to this new EQ and their compressor that while I'm not a fan of this specific companies sound, I think this will get things moving on having a completely recallable analog 500 rig in the next 5 years. To go further, creating a console from several racks setup to transmit the digital data would mean a completely recallable 500 console. Like what Paul has made, it would be easy to adapt that console to send on a blank pin with the digital framework, whatever framework that will come to be. There is for sure an opportunity for someone to create that framework and even retrofit kits to adapt 500 gear to accept whatever the industry standard will become. This is the stuff I wish more of the talented designers out there would start to focus on, (or get them back into the audio business to start) instead of trying to recreate old gear, creating new gear with new technology to make modular style desk's and hybrid rigs work for you, so speed and the demand for quality along with the ability to recall sessions without touching a knob are a true reality. Guys like Brad over at LTL and Kush are doing these things. They're standing on the shoulders of giants to create truly useful and new cutting edge technology, as it should be and as it's been done for generations. I do hold hope that the talented designers out there will get pulled away from trying to recreate classics and create new legends of our time and context. Agreed but what we need to make it work is a supported standard ! Think back to all those old Computers you have seen in various rooms over the years to support a single piece of gear! I'm not sure if 500 is the format for recall, everybody I know or talked to who has done digitally controlled analog audio has stressed the importance of keeping the 2 physically separated and the 500 format is pretty tight! All that said I still want to know why nobody has given us a MIDI recallable LA2 ! 2 freaking Knobs!!! It's tight, but honestly if builders move to using a lot more of the SMD stuff, which in some cases kills through hole stuff, this should be much less of a problem. Like with DOA's, you just build it discrete on the board, you don't get to swap out, but at least you have the option of using top and bottom board to mount components and route traces, also there are 4 and 5 layer boards that would make it so routing could be done on the inner layers of copper and both the top and bottom sides of the board are free real estate, that's a way to condense things significantly. If designers will commit to focusing on this rather that focusing on making a 500 1176 sound just like a rack 1176 we will start getting to the place we want to be, which is total recall in the 500 format. I think the 500 format is the perfect place for it too. You have the ability to make modular consoles, or even build your own custom modular console and think of all the custom work that could be skipped in backplanes and routing, that would bring down cost a hefty bit. The technology has really and truly arrived for designers to get to work making total recall modular consoles the future, and also not gouging our wallets, keep it simple, use the advancements in technology to forward the savings to the buyer. If we can get to that place then I could very well see myself popping for an all analog setup and modular console. But, until we get to that point I have to stay hybrid and static on my analog gear/gain staging. I get request's to pull up old mies all the time and make another version or they want a new perspective. If I didn't have the ability to know confidently that I can do that without missing a beat I'd be in trouble. Too many artists, producers and AnR guys expect you to be able to do this and they really don't like sitting around waiting or being given excuses, and, I don't like giving them, I like being able to recall it right up and have it ready the same day. Anywho, if there is a format that supports the ability to have true analog and digital recall, the 500 format is setup already to go there. I think that's where it's going too.
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Post by adamjbrass on Feb 6, 2018 4:38:54 GMT -6
there are a few top level mixing guys on my instagram feed sayin they love it, no issues. Hmmm How many of them paid for them ? We all know the rules I drop it off you keep it and say nice things! uhm....What??? These guys are legit into it......i dont get how you could insinuate this from my post,
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 6, 2018 14:41:37 GMT -6
Ehhh,
I'm not so sure that Eric was singling you or the guys you were talking about out. What he said is true, it happens all too often in our world. The company will drop a piece of gear off and not be subtle about saying something like "hey if you like it, let all those followers know and just hang onto it, we've got plenty in our stock, we won't miss it." I mean that happens a lot.
Also, there is nothing wrong either with using your hard earned career to better yourself in this world. I don't look down on guys that do that, I hate when they do it and then like a month later sell the gear, but the guys that speak highly of the gear and keep it, there's absolutely nothing unethical there, they've earned the right to be comped just like a high stakes gambler in Vegas. I'm endorsed by some pretty large companies, I truly love their products and I wouldn't have accepted being endorsed by them if I didn't believe in their products. I know I worked my ass off to get to a point in which companies offered to endorse me, like I said there is nothing wrong with it unless you do it to turn the gear into cash shortly after you hype it.
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Post by adamjbrass on Feb 7, 2018 5:50:59 GMT -6
His direct statement, was very, very clear. "How many of them"...etc
Insinuating this is "left field" boredom...not actually addressing the gear, just the "users" and their "shady" practices
next thing, he might acuse me of "liking everything too much", "as a GC rep", which he once said about me.
I was answering Dr. Bill's post about buggy Wes Audio gear. To which, I see "a few " mixing guys enjoying on my Instagram. Guys who mix for video games and Rap and shit....
I never cared to ask them If they paid for the units
Because I don't care WHAT they paid to get it. They obviously use it.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,809
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Post by ericn on Feb 7, 2018 10:07:49 GMT -6
His direct statement, was very, very clear. "How many of them"...etc Insinuating this is "left field" boredom...not actually addressing the gear, just the "users" and their "shady" practices next thing, he might acuse me of "liking everything too much", "as a GC rep", which he once said about me. I was answering Dr. Bill's post about buggy Wes Audio gear. To which, I see "a few " mixing guys enjoying on my Instagram. Guys who mix for video games and Rap and shit.... I never cared to ask them If they paid for the units Because I don't care WHAT they paid to get it. They obviously use it. It was a legitimate question, I had enquired about this product to a number of my own old clients because a very high touch picky client loved the concept and like myself has been a fan of recall for years but has found many of these devices buggy or unstable. So like Bill I hear about problems with the software from everybody who has touched it ! So a dealer, which implies an obvious bias talks about there are a few top level mixing guys on my instagram feed sayin they love it, no issues. Hmmm Nothing against you Adam, but in the modern age of marketing, when ones comments are based on instagram or other mainstream social media one has to take things with a grain of salt! I have no problem with people taking free gear, I have done it, I still get offers of long term demos, that is until I say "any comments I make will include the fact I have been provided this at no cost" suddenly the conversation ends. As our industry moves more and more away from the professional studio to a home based consumer industry more and more buyers want to know "who's opinions can we trust?" What magazine's are left and blogs are Ad supported as are most forums that means they face pressure from manufacturers, most end users haven't used enough gear to offer relevant opinions. I hear time and time again how most dealers are more interested in making the sale rather than making the client happy long term ( faced this pressure myself for years, my solution was to have the client directly communicate to the socially awkward source of these pressures why exactly they were dealing with me rather than someone else, yes I played dirty). So many put extra weight on the comments by those who are considered the top of our field. Well unlike NASCAR where everybody literally wears their corporate affiliations on their chests the general public is left to figure out what's what and in the age of the Internet and taste makers as a job catagory yeah it's a legitimate question! I don't run the world, the Internet, or RGO this is John's little corner of the net, if I did I would insist that anyone who comments about a product who has a relationship with either the manufacturer or a direct competitor disclose this relationship in any post so the public could decide the value of their contributions and biases. 20 years later I still disclose the special relationship's I had with Sennhieser, AVID and Crown in what might seam overly positive remarks, although most seam to be more critical of these particular vendor, but again I don't run any of these places. Adam again any percieved negativity was not directly aimed at you, and I still think the question is relevant and always relevant to ones opinion, for the record those that I talked about the WES AUDIO would not let me directly quote them or answer if they had paid full price for their units ( yeah I asked I always do ). Waiting to see if I could quote or name names is what kept me from answering until now. Maybe I'm an arogant Jack Ass because I would like to see this little industry adopt the same standards I hold myself to, maybe I had to dig through to much REP BS, or maybe I am biased because to many deals went bye, bye because the client suddenly got the gear for free! Still I have to wonder why people are still calling me 20 years retired rather than trusting their current Gearpimp to help dig through the BS! Read more: realgearonline.com/thread/8295/sweetness#ixzz56R6DMlhw
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Post by adamjbrass on Feb 7, 2018 10:15:00 GMT -6
This is insane. How exactly, is my "hearsay" ANY different, than Bill saying its buggy, unless he said he had Direct experience of fault in athe product, I said "hmmm" because im interested IN THAT myself, there is, Was and shall be no conspiracy here, as you often suggest, from your magic hat and crystal ball, If you want to just perpetuate it more, no problem
im interested in Wes Audio gear, because Ive never used it before
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Post by drbill on Feb 7, 2018 11:00:10 GMT -6
I was answering Dr. Bill's post about buggy Wes Audio gear. Just to be 100% clear, my comments were not about Wes Audio and their products - which I think are innovative, sound good are are cool! Just about the EQ itself as it was presented at NAMM. I don't even think these are in the wild yet, are they?
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 7, 2018 12:24:58 GMT -6
wesaudio.com/_titan/wesaudio.com/supercarrier/Very interested in these products! I was wondering if we heard anything from Brad @ Louder Than Liftoff on his 500 series powersupply testing/comparisons? I tried to update that thread, but it quickly died out again. That price on the Supercarrier II is the best price I've seen on an 11 space rack, and I know of a top guy in the industry using it in his rack. I'll see if I can dig up his you tube video showcasing it with the Dione and his two Rupert Neve 542 tape sims on his master buss.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 7, 2018 14:55:05 GMT -6
Goodness....
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Post by drbill on Feb 7, 2018 15:24:53 GMT -6
wesaudio.com/_titan/wesaudio.com/supercarrier/Very interested in these products! I was wondering if we heard anything from Brad @ Louder Than Liftoff on his 500 series powersupply testing/comparisons? I tried to update that thread, but it quickly died out again. Brad has been swamped with SB and Chroma and Chop Shop orders, as well as the recently release Royal Blue and some new products not yet announced. I know his intent is to finish the 500 rack comparisons, along with a possible solution to what he feels is a short-falling in the 500 rack wars - but that is all in the (hopefully not too distant) future. Ultimately I think you'll find the comparisons hosted on the LTL website when finished, but be aware, these comparisons are not easy and not simple. They require a lot of legwork / testing to make them fair and equitable. All is not what it appears when talking about good hosting for 500 series modules - including multiple layer backplanes for those new racks carrying digital audio. There is good discussion on this on the "other" site if interested where Brad shares a lot of info. Lots of good stuff discussed over there. But I'll hit a few of Brad's recent quotes over there for you to consider. This is a DEEP topic that is not easily or simply discussed : From BradM : "I know I said I would never in a million years make a 500 series rack, but just between you and me I may have to soften that position and reconsider. The market is so saturated with racks. We'll see. When you want something done right..." "Don't let manufacturers simply tell you that more current is better. It's not that simple. And they know this." "To these points, I think having a distributed regulation scheme in the design is probably the best way to minimize interactions between modules and keep "clean" power fed to each module. It's also the most costly and complicated." In regards to why Brad is leaning more towards switching supplies (HF noise) and away from linear supplies (LF noise) : "I personally feel it's easier to eliminate high frequency noise than it is low frequency noise which appears as 60 Hz hum in the U.S. Plus they are universal and can be plugged in anywhere in the world. However, I'm not sure why many of these racks aren't adequately filtering out the switching noise. The API 8B Lunchbox, for example, has a choke-capacitor (LC) filter to do this on the +/- 16V rails. That's good! However, it has no LC filter on the 48V supply. The Radial Six-Pack, on the other hand, has no filter than I can see (just a big capacitor) and all the switching noise just shows up on the rails. Not so great. As for the R10...I have an R6 and it appears to have an internal SMPS and separate regulation / filtering board. While the construction of R6 rack is probably the best of all those I have here, its noise performance is bested by many others I tested.." "I'm not sure I would agree with that statement. Mechanically speaking - yes. The enclosure is beautiful and there is a all the I/O you could want. The current metering is a nice touch. The metal work is first class. It feels solid. However, when it comes down to peformance... marketing is marketing, and performance data is performance data." "I obviously can't test everything out there. I tested a BENTO 6, for instance. Supposedly the Bento 6S is improved. Do I try to get a Bento 6S and redo the tests to be fair? I still need to capture audio through each of these racks. Designing a good test can be challenging given that a chosen module might be more immune to power supply issues than another module. So I need to think through what I want my tests to accomplish. Am I trying to simply figure out which racks sound/peform best with my own Louder Than Liftoff modules, or am I trying to make a more absolute judgment. That's, of course, much harder to do." PS - sorry about the off topic. I wanted guitfiddler to be able to find this info.
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 7, 2018 15:45:08 GMT -6
wesaudio.com/_titan/wesaudio.com/supercarrier/Very interested in these products! I was wondering if we heard anything from Brad @ Louder Than Liftoff on his 500 series powersupply testing/comparisons? I tried to update that thread, but it quickly died out again. Brad has been swamped with SB and Chroma and Chop Shop orders, as well as the recently release Royal Blue and some new products not yet announced. I know his intent is to finish the 500 rack comparisons, along with a possible solution to what he feels is a short-falling in the 500 rack wars - but that is all in the (hopefully not too distant) future. Ultimately I think you'll find the comparisons hosted on the LTL website when finished, but be aware, these comparisons are not easy and not simple. They require a lot of legwork / testing to make them fair and equitable. All is not what it appears when talking about good hosting for 500 series modules - including multiple layer backplanes for those new racks carrying digital audio. There is good discussion on this on the "other" site if interested where Brad shares a lot of info. Lots of good stuff discussed over there. But I'll hit a few of Brad's recent quotes over there for you to consider. This is a DEEP topic that is not easily or simply discussed : From BradM : "I know I said I would never in a million years make a 500 series rack, but just between you and me I may have to soften that position and reconsider. The market is so saturated with racks. We'll see. When you want something done right..." "Don't let manufacturers simply tell you that more current is better. It's not that simple. And they know this." "To these points, I think having a distributed regulation scheme in the design is probably the best way to minimize interactions between modules and keep "clean" power fed to each module. It's also the most costly and complicated." In regards to why Brad is leaning more towards switching supplies (HF noise) and away from linear supplies (LF noise) : "I personally feel it's easier to eliminate high frequency noise than it is low frequency noise which appears as 60 Hz hum in the U.S. Plus they are universal and can be plugged in anywhere in the world. However, I'm not sure why many of these racks aren't adequately filtering out the switching noise. The API 8B Lunchbox, for example, has a choke-capacitor (LC) filter to do this on the +/- 16V rails. That's good! However, it has no LC filter on the 48V supply. The Radial Six-Pack, on the other hand, has no filter than I can see (just a big capacitor) and all the switching noise just shows up on the rails. Not so great. As for the R10...I have an R6 and it appears to have an internal SMPS and separate regulation / filtering board. While the construction of R6 rack is probably the best of all those I have here, its noise performance is bested by many others I tested.." "I'm not sure I would agree with that statement. Mechanically speaking - yes. The enclosure is beautiful and there is a all the I/O you could want. The current metering is a nice touch. The metal work is first class. It feels solid. However, when it comes down to peformance... marketing is marketing, and performance data is performance data." "I obviously can't test everything out there. I tested a BENTO 6, for instance. Supposedly the Bento 6S is improved. Do I try to get a Bento 6S and redo the tests to be fair? I still need to capture audio through each of these racks. Designing a good test can be challenging given that a chosen module might be more immune to power supply issues than another module. So I need to think through what I want my tests to accomplish. Am I trying to simply figure out which racks sound/peform best with my own Louder Than Liftoff modules, or am I trying to make a more absolute judgment. That's, of course, much harder to do." PS - sorry about the off topic. I wanted guitfiddler to be able to find this info. I started this thread and I don't mind going a little off topic if it has to do with answering something semi related. Thanks Dr. Bill Thanks
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Post by Guitar on Feb 7, 2018 15:54:46 GMT -6
Wow, that's really inspiring and interesting stuff, drbill thanks for posting.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,809
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Post by ericn on Feb 7, 2018 16:03:47 GMT -6
This is insane. How exactly, is my "hearsay" ANY different, than Bill saying its buggy, unless he said he had Direct experience of fault in athe product, I said "hmmm" because im interested IN THAT myself, there is, Was and shall be no conspiracy here, as you often suggest, from your magic hat and crystal ball, If you want to just perpetuate it more, no problem im interested in Wes Audio gear, because Ive never used it before Adam How many times do I have to say no slight or disrespect to you was intended. I have on more than one occasion sent Buisness your way rather than those who I have a personal relationship. As for this thread I'm out, I respect John, what he has built, & the others to much to continue what can only end up as petty and dirty. Frankly it's not worth my time , as well as the fact I have spent to much time in the past babysitting others here! My last post was simply to expound upon the idea Jerome tried to explained. I'm out!
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Post by drbill on Feb 7, 2018 16:56:32 GMT -6
Wow, that's really inspiring and interesting stuff, drbill thanks for posting. You bet. Stay tuned. If there's one thing LTL does well it's deliver high end product with minimal if any compromise at reasonable real world pricing. There's interesting stuff ahead.....
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Post by donr on Feb 8, 2018 0:18:47 GMT -6
I've gotten some free stuff and some artist pricing on other stuff. There seems to be more coaxing to at least shout out stuff on social media these days. It must drive business to see products demonstrated by name people. Some people have become names by demonstrating gear online.
We had an Ampex endorsement when we were fab. We all got satin jackets, some free tape and an Ampex ATR-700, which I still have. The tape was '80's 456, which I have to bake if I want to play any of it. I made a tape 'oven' out of a plastic dog kennel, a space heater, some wire shelves and a meat thermometer. A few hours at around 120 degrees (firing the heater into the kennel from outside watching the themometer inside) and you could play the tape.
We had a Shure endorsement for a time. Some sm57's, an sm81. 'Way before their wireless stuff and their condensers. Today Shure wouldn't give me the time of day.
We got our backline from Crate (St. Louis Music) around the time Sammy Hagar got his. Ken Hensley (Uriah Heep) was the Artists Relations guy at the time. We still use the stuff around the NY area. The Red Voodoo 150's actually sound really good. They finally got the voiceing right before it all fell apart and went to Loud Technologies.
Ned Steinberger was great to me after I'd bought the first one. He remains a friend.
All the Pro Audio gear I have to pay for. I wouldn't say anything nice about a product I didn't like. I just wouldn't say anything. OTOH, I like to talk about cool stuff I've latched onto. I was an early user of the Two-Notes Torpedo, and the Kemper too. I bought Sweetwater's first demo unit. I love 65Amps, but never needed another amp bad enough to buy one.
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 8, 2018 1:11:07 GMT -6
Ugh
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Post by michalwesaudio on May 11, 2018 3:46:03 GMT -6
Rumors of harshness in the HF, glitchy software, and clumsy ergo's....but again, judge for yourself. Dear drbill, I normally don't interfere on users field unless there are some questions, but I would like to humbly put little bit more light on your comment. At our booth, there were to similar products, _HYPERION (WesAudio) and Fredenstain EQ with big LCD touch screen - both digitally controlled EQs. I don't want to comment on sonic characteristic, everyone have to listen for themselves, however I can comment on the software which was perfectly ready, and there were not glitches whatsoever - that is why I started to think that maybe this is some kind of misunderstanding (and thus a reason i stepped in). I don't want to say that we have created best GUI on earth, but it was definitely not glitchy. In few weeks from now there will be a demo movie which I think will prove that _HYPERION is not harsh in HF and has no glitchy software! Anyhow software can be downloaded anytime from our website, so you can check it for yourself!
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Post by michalwesaudio on May 22, 2018 5:01:13 GMT -6
If anyone still would like to know how _HYPERION sounds and performs on different material, please check out below video:
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Post by b1 on May 22, 2018 11:09:19 GMT -6
This may be going off of the subject, but it's been introduced... IMO, artist endorsements are the last thing I look at, unless they're introducing a new type product. Regular user reviews and their experience level are the things I value. donr is an interesting exception, whereas I value his input on products. Personal research is tops with me. Maybe one product edges another out in tech specs, but real world use by experienced users is good enough for me to get me to take a bite. If it works for me, it works; period... no need to try and up the game with the latest greatest. Make music and be happy... Back on track - this looks like an interesting product. Personally, I can certainly see myself living with or without it though, which is why I don't comment on a lot of products... Although I think it's great that attention is brought to this product, I'll wait a good while for the reviews... 2 cents
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