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Post by Quint on Jan 24, 2018 17:33:37 GMT -6
I believe a member (don't remember who) here verified that, with only one module installed, they observed similar absence of fan noise but that, with two modules installed, as would be the case with a 16x16 AND 2x6 installed, there was noticeable fan noise. It seems that it may be the installation of the second module which is causing the kick up in fan noise. yes I recall but thought it was the 8 channel module ? I don't remember, though I'm not sure if it matters. Even if it was two of the 8 channel modules, that's still 16 channels worth of heat taking up two card slots. A 16x16 card plus a 2x6 card would be more channels yet, so I imagine the fan issue would still be just as much if not more of an issue.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 24, 2018 17:57:34 GMT -6
Maybe but the mkii chassis was redesigned to better promote airflow and heat dissipation and I thought the fans themselves were changed as well ? I thought the example was when running a large mix with 24 converters humming ?? 18 vs 24 is like 30% less heat ?
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Post by Quint on Jan 24, 2018 18:02:45 GMT -6
Maybe but the mkii chassis was redesigned to better promote airflow and heat dissipation and I thought the fans themselves were changed as well ? I thought the example was when running a large mix with 24 converters humming ?? 18 vs 24 is like 30% less heat ? I'm going to see if I can find that discussion. I didn't remember it being that many (24) channels. I do remember that it was the MKII chassis that was being discussed when that real world observation was put forth.
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Post by Quint on Jan 24, 2018 18:07:15 GMT -6
Found it: I can say first hand that a Symphony MKII with 2 cards makes the fan kick on, around 30-40%. It's noticeable, and probably would make it into a recording if tracking near it. The fan doesn't kick on much, if at all, with one card. I don't notice any noise with 1 card. Though it's unclear whether Indie was referring to 8 channel cards or 16 channel cards. From this thread: realgearonline.com/thread/7845/apogee-symphony-mkii-plunge?page=3
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 24, 2018 18:13:19 GMT -6
Id be interested in seeing what the latency was on these.
We have a Lavry Gold converter for printing mixes, and it sounds absolutely brilliant. However, there is too much latency to use it for tracking unless it's somebody doing acoustic guitar and vocal at the same time without the need for headphones, etc.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 24, 2018 18:15:49 GMT -6
Yeah, that's what I found. And that was just idling, no conversion happening. I don't know if the fan kicks on anymore. I certainly don't hear it with a single 16x16 card.
Also, not sure what was "redesigned" about the chasis. It's a friggin metal box with minimal venting on the sides. Why didn't they vent the lid like the Apollo and Silverbullet if heat was an issue?
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 24, 2018 18:16:27 GMT -6
It was an 8x8 and a 16x16.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 24, 2018 18:17:33 GMT -6
Found it: I can say first hand that a Symphony MKII with 2 cards makes the fan kick on, around 30-40%. It's noticeable, and probably would make it into a recording if tracking near it. The fan doesn't kick on much, if at all, with one card. I don't notice any noise with 1 card. Though it's unclear whether Indie was referring to 8 channel cards or 16 channel cards. From this thread: realgearonline.com/thread/7845/apogee-symphony-mkii-plunge?page=3Yes I understand but those 2 modules would have 24 converters creating heat not 18. So I would think the 16 plus 2 would run a lot cooler and the fan would run less and less hard and long ?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 24, 2018 18:22:32 GMT -6
Yeah, that's what I found. And that was just idling, no conversion happening. I don't know if the fan kicks on anymore. I certainly don't hear it with a single 16x16 card. Also, not sure what was "redesigned" about the chasis. It's a friggin metal box with minimal venting on the sides. Why didn't they vent the lid like the Apollo and Silverbullet if heat was an issue? Well the mki and mki chassis are obviously different and what I recall reading was that it was designed to be more open inside and that the front air entrance ways were enlarged and or made more efficient and fans redesigned to run more quietly ? When I opened mine up, I was struck by how little there actually was inside ? Airflow is font to back with the fan drawing, apollos are passive ?
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Post by Quint on Jan 24, 2018 18:38:06 GMT -6
Yes I understand but those 2 modules would have 24 converters creating heat not 18. So I would think the 16 plus 2 would run a lot cooler and the fan would run less and less hard and long ? Maybe so. I just saw that Indie popped in and said it was a 16x16 and 8x8, so it's possible, that with 6 channels less (24-18), maybe the fan wouldn't be as loud. Hard to know without someone with real-world experience posting about this specific scenario. Either way, I don't like the idea of teetering on the edge of fan noise acceptability though. I like to be able to be confident in how something is going to perform. The idea that, if driven hard enough, the fan "could" kick on is not ideal. It's kind of all academic for me anyway because I'd still need to switch over to Mac.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 24, 2018 21:00:48 GMT -6
True but I haven't seen any actual measurement of how loud it is. I have been behind my unit sometimes and I believe I have seen the fan running and couldn't hear anything ? No disrespect to Indie but in comparison to the mki, it is not a very common complaint that I have seen it fact I hardly see it mentioned as an issue, maybe it is and for some reason people don't bring it up but normally they do Apogee seem to have windows drivers for everything esle are they not developing them for the symphony ?
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Post by Quint on Jan 25, 2018 20:08:33 GMT -6
True but I haven't seen any actual measurement of how loud it is. I have been behind my unit sometimes and I believe I have seen the fan running and couldn't hear anything ? No disrespect to Indie but in comparison to the mki, it is not a very common complaint that I have seen it fact I hardly see it mentioned as an issue, maybe it is and for some reason people don't bring it up but normally they do Apogee seem to have windows drivers for everything esle are they not developing them for the symphony ? I believe that the new Windows drivers are for the lower end Apogee stuff only, like the Duet and what not. I haven't heard anything about Windows support for the Symphony.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 25, 2018 20:24:55 GMT -6
Me neither but makes you wonder why not with tb3 and compeititors releasing x platform drivers ?
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 26, 2018 2:31:56 GMT -6
[ It ended for me awhile back. I don’t chase conversion anymore. I’d imagine most of what’s heard on top 40 radio is recorded and mixed on old 192’s. To be sure there is an entry level of quality like anything, but a great result can be had with about any of these newer converters.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 26, 2018 4:23:24 GMT -6
^^this^^, well said cowboy, it’s actually why I bought the mkii , excellent conversion, certainly good enuff for me,good features and excellent DA and on the cans.
I bought one of the refurbished Groove dacs in the Black Friday sale too so the sound on laptop is same as mkii cans.
Unlike the Apollo you lose 1 set of converters to drive your outs (1-2), this 2x6 is a kind of expensive way to add just 2 vs a used 8 card, but you’d be adding their best converters ?
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Post by Quint on Jan 26, 2018 4:47:11 GMT -6
[ It ended for me awhile back. I don’t chase conversion anymore. I’d imagine most of what’s heard on top 40 radio is recorded and mixed on old 192’s. To be sure there is an entry level of quality like anything, but a great result can be had with about any of these newer converters. No doubt. That comment was meant to be taken in jest as in, "did the 2x6 really NEED to be upgraded?" I don't really "worry" about conversion quality much either these days. I love my 2192 for any and all overdubs or any other situation where I only need to record two tracks, and the Apollo 16 is more than fine for anything else, though I definitely prefer the sound of the 2192. I'd say that the Symphony is a special case kind of thing for me. I've been looking at other converters/interfaces as well, but those are mostly just as a forward looking way to maybe take the exit ramp off the UAD freeway for several reasons I won't go into. In the specific case of the Symphony, I have a particular interest in it because it gives me similar vibes as the 2192. I figure that, if I'm looking at getting something new anyway, the Symphony is a move that I could make which would satisfy my fondness for the 2192 type vibe (on 18 channels versus two), allow me to sell the 2192 to help fund the new purchase (because I'm keeping the 2192 if I go with anything other than the Symphony), and also satisfy my overall needs on the conversion/interface front for a LONG time.
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Post by Quint on Jan 26, 2018 4:59:38 GMT -6
Me neither but makes you wonder why not with tb3 and compeititors releasing x platform drivers ? Agreed. I wish they would.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 27, 2018 14:11:11 GMT -6
[ It ended for me awhile back. I don’t chase conversion anymore. I’d imagine most of what’s heard on top 40 radio is recorded and mixed on old 192’s. To be sure there is an entry level of quality like anything, but a great result can be had with about any of these newer converters. I agree in principle...like - I’m not sure I would upgrade from a MkI Symphony - but the MkII I bought from kcat has been a large upgrade from the Apollo. And it really only became apparent after using it a while.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 27, 2018 14:15:19 GMT -6
John, now you're making me think about what I don't want to think about for at least 6-8 months.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 27, 2018 16:08:01 GMT -6
@martin Think ahead !!
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Post by veggieryan on Jan 28, 2018 21:03:32 GMT -6
[ It ended for me awhile back. I don’t chase conversion anymore. I’d imagine most of what’s heard on top 40 radio is recorded and mixed on old 192’s. To be sure there is an entry level of quality like anything, but a great result can be had with about any of these newer converters. I agree in principle...like - I’m not sure I would upgrade from a MkI Symphony - but the MkII I bought from kcat has been a large upgrade from the Apollo. And it really only became apparent after using it a while. This was my experience exactly. The Symphony MK1 made my blackface Apollo 8 sound VERY cheap and thin. To my ear its a big enough difference that I can't go back to using the Apollo 8... especially with the MK1 Symphony market price dropping since the MK2 came out. Since then I went a step further and upgraded to JCF AD8 converters with PEP and I now feel that conversion is one of the most important parts of any signal chain.... worth every penny IMHO.
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Post by aremos on Jan 29, 2018 8:07:00 GMT -6
Do you track with the JCF ... &, if so, any latency?
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Post by veggieryan on Jan 29, 2018 11:25:10 GMT -6
Do you track with the JCF ... &, if so, any latency? Yes... if you track with PEP enabled then you monitor via an analog console or you split the signal with a Y cable and monitor with a cheap AD so there is no latency. I think the analog portion of converters is often overlooked or forgotten about. When digital came to replace tape it was really the cheapening and miniaturization of the analog portions of the devices which is responsible for what most people can recognize as a degradation in audio quality. If you compare the most expensive converters today they are not over priced compared to just the analog in/out sections of the high end tape machines. I think it's a great sign to see companies like Apogee pushing the envelope to improve already great converters like the Symphony...
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 29, 2018 12:17:10 GMT -6
I stopped by their booth and picked their brain about it. ESS released a new chip that this card takes advantage of. ESS has told them that they(apogee) get better specs out of their circuits than ESS does on their chip demo boards. I'm not sure if that's saying anything, tho.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 8, 2018 18:24:20 GMT -6
I stopped by their booth and picked their brain about it. ESS released a new chip that this card takes advantage of. ESS has told them that they(apogee) get better specs out of their circuits than ESS does on their chip demo boards. I'm not sure if that's saying anything, tho. Ah - Chuck has confirmed the 9038s in the new SE.
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