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Post by jazznoise on Jan 16, 2018 10:32:30 GMT -6
Reverb on close mics almost always sounds like an effect, I rarely if ever do it as a mixing thing. As an effect, it can have its own place.
Agreed massively on room sounds, you can augment a space or smoothen out the character or add some early reflections but you can't make a space something that it isn't. It's always been a marketing thing.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 16, 2018 22:46:40 GMT -6
Has anyone tried m/s in the Glynn johns snare overhead position? What is a "Glyn Johns snare Overhead position"? That does not sound consistent with any real G.J. technique I'm aware of.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 16, 2018 22:54:17 GMT -6
You can add stuff to a room (change reverb time in different bands, smooth out close mics, extend tails, etc), but it's almost impossible to really get rid of bad room character that's made it into the mics. There are tools on the market that can help, but they're very hard to use and may only get a couple of dB of the bad stuff out. That's why the oldest rule is still the best one: Right mics in the right place and everything else will take care of itself. I do get that, and unfortunately I had as many reps trying to sell me on sell reverb as room replacement as I have stood there as others tried to do the same, I just see someone looking at a product as deep as yours and thinking " I can replace the sound of my bedroom" not a fault on your part, let's call it home Studio myth #123, and it always amazed me that those who perpetrated this myth were the biggest boosters of the most unrealistic reverbs ! It's because they've never worked a real session in a real space and consequently dinnae ken what the bloody foock they're babbling aboot!
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Post by gouge on Jan 16, 2018 23:38:19 GMT -6
Has anyone tried m/s in the Glynn johns snare overhead position? What is a "Glyn Johns snare Overhead position"? That does not sound consistent with any real G.J. technique I'm aware of. Ok
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Post by wiz on Jan 16, 2018 23:47:44 GMT -6
What is a "Glyn Johns snare Overhead position"? That does not sound consistent with any real G.J. technique I'm aware of. Ok I thought you put one mic above the snare? That's the overhead? the other one goes peeking over the floor tom cheers Wiz
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 17, 2018 1:20:36 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 17, 2018 3:06:57 GMT -6
I thought you put one mic above the snare? That's the overhead? the other one goes peeking over the floor tom cheers Wiz One goes a foot or so in front of the rack tom(s), about 6-12" above the rim, the other goes on the FT side 6-12" above the rim, both approximately equidistant from the snare. There is no overhead as such. There are variations.
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Post by wiz on Jan 17, 2018 3:39:24 GMT -6
I thought you put one mic above the snare? That's the overhead? the other one goes peeking over the floor tom cheers Wiz One goes a foot or so in front of the rack tom(s), about 6-12" above the rim, the other goes on the FT side 6-12" above the rim, both approximately equidistant from the snare. There is no overhead as such. There are variations. Perhaps watch the video above..... Cheers Wiz
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 16:18:49 GMT -6
Reverb on close mics almost always sounds like an effect, I rarely if ever do it as a mixing thing. As an effect, it can have its own place. If the reverb has sufficient early reflections, you can use those to smooth out the harshness of close mics. Across the mix it can help give a sense of mic leakage, which--contrary to intuition--can make a much better recording. You don't have to use any of the reverb tail at all. Most of the classic reverbs--Lexicon was a good example of this--had very little in the way of early reflections. In part that's because of the limited capability of the processors. But it's also because recordings made in the 80's had a better chance of coming from a good room with good early reflections. The digital reverb was mainly used to lengthen the tail. But as mics got closer (and cardioids began to dominate), those reflections vanished and the characteristic 'bite' of close mics began to take over.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 23, 2018 8:46:07 GMT -6
I had a Sennheiser MKH800 Twin / MKH30 (D)MS set up in front of a fingerpicked/strummed guitar yesterday, about a meter out. Am using the Lewitt plugin to choose the 800 pattern after the fact. At this distance, figure 8 sounds too closely miked, very forward. Cardioid won for overall ambient noise contribution versus image. Omni has the most coherent stereo field across the entire L/R spectrum, while cardioid reveals some timbre differences where the mic patterns trade off in the image. Omni shows more ambient and electronics noise. I can see automating a pattern change to omni for louder strummed parts and cardioid for fingerpicked passages, would soften any harshness in the strummed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 12:57:04 GMT -6
Am using the Lewitt plugin to choose the 800 pattern after the fact. Just checking this out, cool freebie! There's not much info on it though, is Input 1 (usually Left) for the Mid and Input 2 (usually Right) for the Side component, so you can basically use it with any M/S pair to derive all the other polar patterns and smoothly morph between them?
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Post by EmRR on Jan 23, 2018 13:10:22 GMT -6
Am using the Lewitt plugin to choose the 800 pattern after the fact. Just checking this out, cool freebie! There's not much info on it though, is Input 1 (usually Left) for the Mid and Input 2 (usually Right) for the Side component, so you can basically use it with any M/S pair to derive all the other polar patterns and smoothly morph between them? No, it's good for dual output mics. Theirs, MKH800 Twin, a Gefell, two Pearls, not sure if there are others. Output of that is the continuously variable mid, then feeds an MS matrix. That then gives MS with variable mid polar pattern. You could do the same with faders and polarity switching.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 13:18:21 GMT -6
Ah cool, that Lewitt mic looks extremely versatile! I wonder if you could achieve something similar with two matched mics back to back, then into the plugin? Might be worth an experiement...
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Post by EmRR on Jan 23, 2018 13:59:52 GMT -6
Ah cool, that Lewitt mic looks extremely versatile! I wonder if you could achieve something similar with two matched mics back to back, then into the plugin? Might be worth an experiement... Yeah, people do that. Something as small as possible in that situation, so the mic case has as small a shadow/reflection as possible. Schoeps makes a mount for their capsules, and there's a set of clips on Shapeways to attach a pair of the newer MKH8000 series above and below an MKH30. Dual Mid Side for surround sound is the target audience there, but when you collapse it to stereo it's the same as a single variable pattern mid.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 23, 2018 15:16:26 GMT -6
A little late to this party. I used a Peluso 2257SE as my Mid mic in Wide Cardioid II and a KSM44 as my Fig 8 mic on a church recording I did a while back. You can hear that clip here. U87ai sport mic for soloists. static1.squarespace.com/static/53f8c455e4b046b3a20ca0e9/t/54554d5ce4b0da153a283ab5/1414876508362/Pater+in+Manus+Tuas.mp3/original/Pater+in+Manus+Tuas.mp3It worked so well my mentor Jack used this combination again for a local church choir with the 2247 in Cardioid. I think it was the combination of the warmth of the 2247 and the transparency and top end of the KSM44. I had the Mics about 10 feet in front of the choir, which was in front of the organ, and about 10-12ft up in the air. There was also a monosummed signal from some spot choi Mics. Sadly I’ve sold both of these Mics, although I imagine my BLUE Stage II w/B7 Cap as my mid and either the RMS269 or U87ai as my fig 8 Mic would yield similar results.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 23, 2018 15:37:40 GMT -6
A little late to this party. I used a Peluso 2257SE as my Mid mic in Wide Cardioid II and a KSM44 as my Fig 8 mic on a church recording I did a while back. You can hear that clip here. U87ai sport mic for soloists. static1.squarespace.com/static/53f8c455e4b046b3a20ca0e9/t/54554d5ce4b0da153a283ab5/1414876508362/Pater+in+Manus+Tuas.mp3/original/Pater+in+Manus+Tuas.mp3It worked so well my mentor Jack used this combination again for a local church choir with the 2247 in Cardioid. I think it was the combination of the warmth of the 2247 and the transparency and top end of the KSM44. I had the Mics about 10 feet in front of the choir, which was in front of the organ, and about 10-12ft up in the air. There was also a monosummed signal from some spot choi Mics. Sadly I’ve sold both of these Mics, although I imagine my BLUE Stage II w/B7 Cap as my mid and either the RMS269 or U87ai as my fig 8 Mic would yield similar results. Cool, sounds good. Where was the spot (cardioid?) relative to soloists and main pair, and how much was used?
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 23, 2018 16:36:49 GMT -6
Cool, sounds good. Where was the spot (cardioid?) relative to soloists and main pair, and how much was used? Spot was about 10ft from the room set up and adjusted for each singer, in this example me, so maybe 5ft and change high. I was probably 2ft-3ft back from the mic and we were both just off Center stage right due to the organ contoller being dead Center. There is a healthy dose of spot mic in this mix.
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Post by schmalzy on Jan 24, 2018 11:27:30 GMT -6
Oh, M/S, my old friend.
I've tried the mixed mic thing. It always sounded wonky to me. Like someone above was saying, it's the phase and frequency discrepancies you're hearing. I guess my choices for fig-8 mics haven't played well when combined with non-matching mid mics.
M/S is my go-to drum room technique when I need more width than mono only room mics. I can get a solid mono room sound, it'll still exist in mono playback, and the S mic can give me adjustable width and ambience. It's also my go-to solo acoustic guitar technique. My semi-recently-acquired Vanguard V13s have been really good for that.
I just tried something the other day that I thought was fairly fascinating. I basically stuck a ribbon mic in the pocket a foot-and-a-half high between a kick drum and the floor tom (4-piece drum kit) but backed away two feet so the mic was the head of a triangle with the floor tom and kick drum. I pointed it at the snare through the kick drum.
The figure-8 pattern rejection and dark tone helped to tame the cymbals but the kick and snare were fairly huge sounding (ribbon mics do THAT THING so well) even though the toms were pretty under-represented. The next drum tracking day will see that pocket mic go to an M/S technique with ribbons to see if I can get some more toms out of it. I anticipate it sounding awesome but - you know - only time will tell! That might be my kit image setup if I can make it jive with high-passed cymbal spot mics and if the side mic sounds as cool as the mid mic does!
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