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Post by gouge on Jan 14, 2018 15:59:27 GMT -6
I'm taking this from the ribbon mic thread.
I was interested in the discussion about mid mic choice with relation to source distance
I typically use card mics, akg 414, rn17 etc.
I'd like to try more polar pattern options. Like my oktava in omni. Can anyone point me in the direction of some theory or improve my knowledge.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 14, 2018 16:05:10 GMT -6
The Wes Dooley paper for starters. Many pages of diagrams showing blends and virtual patterns resulting therefrom. I wish the Neumann and Shoeps mic pattern apps covered MS, but they don't. They are a good place to experiment virtually with many different patterns, showing the resulting imaging.
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Post by Ward on Jan 14, 2018 16:18:19 GMT -6
Let me reiterate a somewhat controversial opinion/position/finding of mine...
MS is fake stereo, and the sides cancel each other out by virtue of the fact that +s on one side and -s on the other side = ZERO sides
The psycho-acoustic stereo effect is good if you're in the sweet spot listening, or have cans on, but that's about it.
THUS!!!
The M (or C) microphone choice is far and away most critical, and you should pick the microphone, in cardioid, that presents the most beautiful and realistic mono sound.
YMMV
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Post by EmRR on Jan 14, 2018 16:40:51 GMT -6
Sure, you should pick the mono center mic that is best for the entire sound, knowing it may get summed mono. Side supports it, and cancels if summed mono. It is not a psycho-acoustic effect though, any more than any other stereo pattern creates, as the center and mid patterns are summed together creating the same patterns as other selected coincident crossed mic pairs, the primary difference being pattern control with respect to frequency. MS has on axis pattern response in the middle. Virtual patterns will not have the same on axis response as actual mics pointed on axis at the sides rather than the center, likewise MS wins when you find you have to narrow an image that's wider than you want in post. SDC's with good pattern control and flat response make the best MS patterns, LDC's work, but with less flexibility and a more colored/effected sound, greatest amount of pattern difference with respect to frequency.
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Post by Quint on Jan 14, 2018 16:42:11 GMT -6
Let me reiterate a somewhat controversial opinion/position/finding of mine... MS is fake stereo, and the sides cancel each other out by virtue of the fact that +s on one side and -s on the other side = ZERO sides The psycho-acoustic stereo effect is good if you're in the sweet spot listening, or have cans on, but that's about it. THUS!!! The M (or C) microphone choice is far and away most critical, and you should pick the microphone, in cardioid, that presents the most beautiful and realistic mono sound. YMMV Why would it have to be cardioid versus a Fig 8? Also, wouldn't a spaced pair further back, in addition to your spot mics on individual drums/cymbals help to localize things in the stereo field? Just as a point of discussion, I'm interested in using a 4038, or something similar, as a mid mic and then using another less expensive ribbon as the side mic in a MS configuration. |
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Post by stormymondays on Jan 14, 2018 16:46:40 GMT -6
My Oktava in Omni has always given me great results as the M mic. I use it on Leslie and drum room, with a ribbon mic for S.
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Post by Ward on Jan 14, 2018 17:36:12 GMT -6
Let me reiterate a somewhat controversial opinion/position/finding of mine... MS is fake stereo, and the sides cancel each other out by virtue of the fact that +s on one side and -s on the other side = ZERO sides The psycho-acoustic stereo effect is good if you're in the sweet spot listening, or have cans on, but that's about it. THUS!!! The M (or C) microphone choice is far and away most critical, and you should pick the microphone, in cardioid, that presents the most beautiful and realistic mono sound. YMMV Why would it have to be cardioid versus a Fig 8? Also, wouldn't a spaced pair further back, in addition to your spot mics on individual drums/cymbals help to localize things in the stereo field? Just as a point of discussion, I'm interested in using a 4038, or something similar, as a mid mic and then using another less expensive ribbon as the side mic in a MS configuration. Sure, why not? Theoretically, MS is a Figure of 8 for the sides and a cardioid in the center aimed at the source... but since the sides disappear most of the time, anyhow, I'd say go for it. Whatever gets you results! |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 14, 2018 21:47:06 GMT -6
If you can find one the Fostex RP, printed ribbon Stereo M/S mic is hard to beat for a great stereo m/s.
A point about M/S, unmatched center & side can be an awesome affect, but it is an affect because your hearing the effects of dissimilar phase response.
If your recording classical or small acoustic ensambles mics designed "to Match up well" will work best.
I'll emphasize un- matched isn't wrong or bad, just a phase response based effect.
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Post by jazznoise on Jan 15, 2018 4:47:05 GMT -6
If you're not sure about distance, chose an omni. It makes it easier to make a call on distance. If you decide you don't like certain reflections or the amount of ambiance on the center mic, then moving to a Fig 8 or Cardioid mic from there is sensible.
I like the idea of a ribbon side mic but they often don't sound as wide because they're relatively dark.
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Post by gouge on Jan 15, 2018 5:10:45 GMT -6
i'm not sure if i'm reading the wes dooley patterns correctly. does his diagram say that a card will push further back in the sound stage than an omni. i attached the doc. Attachments:technique 2.pdf (637.11 KB)
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Post by joseph on Jan 15, 2018 9:32:40 GMT -6
I wish AKG hadn't discontinued the 422/426
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Post by Quint on Jan 15, 2018 10:44:55 GMT -6
If you can find one the Fostex RP, printed ribbon Stereo M/S mic is hard to beat for a great stereo m/s. A point about M/S, unmatched center & side can be an awesome affect, but it is an affect because your hearing the effects of dissimilar phase response. If your recording classical or small acoustic ensambles mics designed "to Match up well" will work best. I'll emphasize un- matched isn't wrong or bad, just a phase response based effect. I hear you about the phase differences. Though, as you said, it could also sound really cool. I'm interesting in trying something like the 3U Warbler MKID (U-87 style) as the side mic coupled with a Coles 4038 or Stager ribbon (SR or SN) as the mid mic. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 12:16:41 GMT -6
I like the idea of a ribbon side mic but they often don't sound as wide because they're relatively dark. That can actually work to advantage in some situations. I recorded a group in a very live art gallery. Because of the hard flat surfaces, there were a lot of reflections from the sides that played havoc with imaging. I set up M/S with a KM140 as mid and an N8 ribbon as side. My reasoning was that the N8 wouldn't respond so much to the slappy stuff from the sides, but the stronger L/F would still give me a nice sense of space. There's a little HF bump in the Neumann that more or less evened out the overall response of the recording. It really worked out nicely. In the end, it's always situational. Ideal rooms may respond best to mics in the same family. But rooms aren't always ideal. ----- I've got a friend (with a lot more mics than I have) who will sometimes use 3 mics for M/S spots. The side's a regular figure-8. But the mid is an omni stacked right over a front-facing figure-8. Since you can derive any 1st order pattern from an omni/figure-8, he's got some options when it comes time to mix. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 15, 2018 14:21:30 GMT -6
I like the idea of a ribbon side mic but they often don't sound as wide because they're relatively dark. That can actually work to advantage in some situations. I recorded a group in a very live art gallery. Because of the hard flat surfaces, there were a lot of reflections from the sides that played havoc with imaging. I set up M/S with a KM140 as mid and an N8 ribbon as side. My reasoning was that the N8 wouldn't respond so much to the slappy stuff from the sides, but the stronger L/F would still give me a nice sense of space. There's a little HF bump in the Neumann that more or less evened out the overall response of the recording. It really worked out nicely. In the end, it's always situational. Ideal rooms may respond best to mics in the same family. But rooms aren't always ideal. ----- I've got a friend (with a lot more mics than I have) who will sometimes use 3 mics for M/S spots. The side's a regular figure-8. But the mid is an omni stacked right over a front-facing figure-8. Since you can derive any 1st order pattern from an omni/figure-8, he's got some options when it comes time to mix. Micheal I think you are pointing out a significant difference to the approaches between "pop" recording and "mobile acoustic " recording, pop thinks in term of the signature sound of the mic, mobile acoustic guys pack for everything when they walk into a new room and let the room decide their micing approach! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 14:36:20 GMT -6
Micheal I think you are pointing out a significant difference to the approaches between "pop" recording and "mobile acoustic " recording, pop thinks in term of the signature sound of the mic, mobile acoustic guys pack for everything when they walk into a new room and let the room decide their micing approach! I'm aware of that. It usually comes from the realization that my mic lust is directed at completely different mics from most of the folks on this board  But even if you're recording pop music, you might be doing it in some place that's not ideal. Poorly controlled lateral reflections are often a problem--especially if the space is small and live. M/S is a great technique and offers some advantages over other coincident placements. One advantage is that a slower side mic can help control those reflections in a way that no other coincident technique can. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 15, 2018 15:00:50 GMT -6
Micheal I think you are pointing out a significant difference to the approaches between "pop" recording and "mobile acoustic " recording, pop thinks in term of the signature sound of the mic, mobile acoustic guys pack for everything when they walk into a new room and let the room decide their micing approach! I'm aware of that. It usually comes from the realization that my mic lust is directed at completely different mics from most of the folks on this board But even if you're recording pop music, you might be doing it in some place that's not ideal. Poorly controlled lateral reflections are often a problem--especially if the space is small and live. M/S is a great technique and offers some advantages over other coincident placements. One advantage is that a slower side mic can help control those reflections in a way that no other coincident technique can. But I'm the weird pop guy who lusts after M49's M50's and Schoeps! OK my world is going more and more acoustic pop and solo acoustic! Of course I see the fun ironic side of your one of the guys making products so the guy can make up for the less than optimal spaces😎! But having worked in the mobile location world and found myself in spaces that in theory should work but in practicality were compromised I can think of no better background for what you do! |
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Post by gouge on Jan 15, 2018 15:26:07 GMT -6
Micheal I think you are pointing out a significant difference to the approaches between "pop" recording and "mobile acoustic " recording, pop thinks in term of the signature sound of the mic, mobile acoustic guys pack for everything when they walk into a new room and let the room decide their micing approach! I'm aware of that. It usually comes from the realization that my mic lust is directed at completely different mics from most of the folks on this board But even if you're recording pop music, you might be doing it in some place that's not ideal. Poorly controlled lateral reflections are often a problem--especially if the space is small and live. M/S is a great technique and offers some advantages over other coincident placements. One advantage is that a slower side mic can help control those reflections in a way that no other coincident technique can. This is my philosophy as well. The space will in most case determine things. Apple with apples doesn't apply. |
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Post by gouge on Jan 15, 2018 15:27:31 GMT -6
Has anyone tried m/s in the Glynn johns snare overhead position?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 19:49:27 GMT -6
But I'm the weird pop guy who lusts after M49's M50's and Schoeps!Careful. You might lose your pop music membership card for that! Of course I see the fun ironic side of your one of the guys making products so the guy can make up for the less than optimal spaces😎!
But having worked in the mobile location world and found myself in spaces that in theory should work but in practicality were compromised I can think of no better background for what you do! You can add stuff to a room (change reverb time in different bands, smooth out close mics, extend tails, etc), but it's almost impossible to really get rid of bad room character that's made it into the mics. There are tools on the market that can help, but they're very hard to use and may only get a couple of dB of the bad stuff out. That's why the oldest rule is still the best one: Right mics in the right place and everything else will take care of itself. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 15, 2018 22:07:03 GMT -6
Has anyone tried m/s in the Glynn johns snare overhead position? Most of the M/S over heads I have heard have been more centered than Glynn John's. Like any stereo technique it can work in the right room, but be ready to try something different! |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 15, 2018 22:12:27 GMT -6
But I'm the weird pop guy who lusts after M49's M50's and Schoeps!Careful. You might lose your pop music membership card for that! Of course I see the fun ironic side of your one of the guys making products so the guy can make up for the less than optimal spaces😎!
But having worked in the mobile location world and found myself in spaces that in theory should work but in practicality were compromised I can think of no better background for what you do! You can add stuff to a room (change reverb time in different bands, smooth out close mics, extend tails, etc), but it's almost impossible to really get rid of bad room character that's made it into the mics. There are tools on the market that can help, but they're very hard to use and may only get a couple of dB of the bad stuff out. That's why the oldest rule is still the best one: Right mics in the right place and everything else will take care of itself. I do get that, and unfortunately I had as many reps trying to sell me on sell reverb as room replacement as I have stood there as others tried to do the same, I just see someone looking at a product as deep as yours and thinking " I can replace the sound of my bedroom" not a fault on your part, let's call it home Studio myth #123, and it always amazed me that those who perpetrated this myth were the biggest boosters of the most unrealistic reverbs ! |
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Post by gouge on Jan 16, 2018 5:46:50 GMT -6
Has anyone tried m/s in the Glynn johns snare overhead position? Most of the M/S over heads I have heard have been more centered than Glynn John's. Like any stereo technique it can work in the right room, but be ready to try something different! your most likely right. for ortfi use an axis from snare to kick as centre line. i guess ms would need to be placed similarly. i might give it a try next session where i'll be using GJ method. i've got one channel spare so i'll put up a fig 8. a dark one. |
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Post by ericn on Jan 16, 2018 8:25:36 GMT -6
Most of the M/S over heads I have heard have been more centered than Glynn John's. Like any stereo technique it can work in the right room, but be ready to try something different! your most likely right. for ortfi use an axis from snare to kick as centre line. i guess ms would need to be placed similarly. i might give it a try next session where i'll be using GJ method. i've got one channel spare so i'll put up a fig 8. a dark one. Give it a try and let us know, we only learn by doing! I'll say it again I learned more just fooling around in the studio trying stuff makeing mistakes than any wher else! |
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 16, 2018 9:24:41 GMT -6
Most of the M/S over heads I have heard have been more centered than Glynn John's. Like any stereo technique it can work in the right room, but be ready to try something different! your most likely right. for ortfi use an axis from snare to kick as centre line. i guess ms would need to be placed similarly. i might give it a try next session where i'll be using GJ method. i've got one channel spare so i'll put up a fig 8. a dark one. If you have a pair of SDC omnis throw those up next to your normal GJ mics. I’ve had success with this before. |
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Post by swurveman on Jan 16, 2018 9:37:19 GMT -6
I bought a pair of Lauten Atlantis's because I wanted a pair of mics that doubled as m/s for acoustic guitar and spaced pair overhead mics. I had a pair of Schoeps MK4's before and the Atlantis pair sounds much better in my room
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But even if you're recording pop music, you might be doing it in some place that's not ideal. Poorly controlled lateral reflections are often a problem--especially if the space is small and live. M/S is a great technique and offers some advantages over other coincident placements. One advantage is that a slower side mic can help control those reflections in a way that no other coincident technique can.
