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Post by cdkelly on Jan 19, 2018 21:19:38 GMT -6
Since you brought it up, I can guarantee you that both units assembly involves human hands AND automated assembly. Warm is playing a marketing trick by emphasizing their "hand wiring" (which isn't IMO) on tradition and people's naiveté - pure and simple. It's as hand wired as the heritage is. As far as whether or not it makes a difference?? I doubt that any of Warm's "hand wiring / assembly" will make a spit of difference in compared to the Heritage Elite, the REAL hardwired heritage, or a vintage hand wired unit. The reality is that there are FAR more important things in the designs than "hand wiring" IMO. I'm sure Warm got a bunch if not all of those "other" things right, No need to pimp the "hand wired" card - it only cheapens their offering. Again, all IMO. And just as an aside, no vintage 1073 I've ever seen has IC chips and ribbon cable in it. I could be wrong though.... I say Cheers for all the good sounding 1073 clones on the market!!! Time will decide the winners!! For the record, I think if anyone is using the term hand-wiring it's probably a misnomer in marketing and what was really intended to be said was 'hand stuffed or hand populated' PCBs, as that's prob the larger difference between the assembly methods. Through-hole components are still placed through their eyelets by hand or with tweezers, usually by a lady in an Asian factory somewhere because the cost of labor is so much lower in China that it's still economically possible, and some factories there are still largely set up to operate that way. The WA does fit in that category, and the Heritage is making much greater use of SMT (surface mount technology) to automate the assembly process more, which makes alot of sense because labor prices are much higher in Spain. Do either of these methods themselves lend to a better product.. not reallly. Both have the potential for human error. At my first job in the industry, we had our own Philips pick-and-place machine (later a fleet of them) and so I was always OK with that technology. There is a 'type' of human error that comes into play with SMT, usually having to do with machine alignment or someone loading the wrong reel of parts into the machine for a certain board, etc... but good procedures can eliminate most of that. There is another 'type' of human error that comes into play with hand-populating PCBs, mainly mis-orienting the polarity of a capacitor or putting a wrong part in somewhere because you pulled from the wrong bin or what not. Obviously doing all hand-population would be a bit more prone to human error, but it does keep with the tradition of how those things were built originally... I think there will be other deciding factors besides those.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 19, 2018 22:20:04 GMT -6
Since you brought it up, I can guarantee you that both units assembly involves human hands AND automated assembly. Warm is playing a marketing trick by emphasizing their "hand wiring" (which isn't IMO) on tradition and people's naiveté - pure and simple. It's as hand wired as the heritage is. As far as whether or not it makes a difference?? I doubt that any of Warm's "hand wiring / assembly" will make a spit of difference in compared to the Heritage Elite, the REAL hardwired heritage, or a vintage hand wired unit. The reality is that there are FAR more important things in the designs than "hand wiring" IMO. I'm sure Warm got a bunch if not all of those "other" things right, No need to pimp the "hand wired" card - it only cheapens their offering. Again, all IMO. And just as an aside, no vintage 1073 I've ever seen has IC chips and ribbon cable in it. I could be wrong though.... I say Cheers for all the good sounding 1073 clones on the market!!! Time will decide the winners!! For the record, I think if anyone is using the term hand-wiring it's probably a misnomer in marketing and what was really intended to be said was 'hand stuffed or hand populated' PCBs, as that's prob the larger difference between the assembly methods. Through-hole components are still placed through their eyelets by hand or with tweezers, usually by a lady in an Asian factory somewhere because the cost of labor is so much lower in China that it's still economically possible, and some factories there are still largely set up to operate that way. The WA does fit in that category, and the Heritage is making much greater use of SMT (surface mount technology) to automate the assembly process more, which makes alot of sense because labor prices are much higher in Spain. Do either of these methods themselves lend to a better product.. not reallly. Both have the potential for human error. At my first job in the industry, we had our own Philips pick-and-place machine (later a fleet of them) and so I was always OK with that technology. There is a 'type' of human error that comes into play with SMT, usually having to do with machine alignment or someone loading the wrong reel of parts into the machine for a certain board, etc... but good procedures can eliminate most of that. There is another 'type' of human error that comes into play with hand-populating PCBs, mainly mis-orienting the polarity of a capacitor or putting a wrong part in somewhere because you pulled from the wrong bin or what not. Obviously doing all hand-population would be a bit more prone to human error, but it does keep with the tradition of how those things were built originally... I think there will be other deciding factors besides those. Good post
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Post by Quint on Jan 20, 2018 0:11:25 GMT -6
Since you brought it up, I can guarantee you that both units assembly involves human hands AND automated assembly. Warm is playing a marketing trick by emphasizing their "hand wiring" (which isn't IMO) on tradition and people's naiveté - pure and simple. It's as hand wired as the heritage is. As far as whether or not it makes a difference?? I doubt that any of Warm's "hand wiring / assembly" will make a spit of difference in compared to the Heritage Elite, the REAL hardwired heritage, or a vintage hand wired unit. The reality is that there are FAR more important things in the designs than "hand wiring" IMO. I'm sure Warm got a bunch if not all of those "other" things right, No need to pimp the "hand wired" card - it only cheapens their offering. Again, all IMO. And just as an aside, no vintage 1073 I've ever seen has IC chips and ribbon cable in it. I could be wrong though.... I say Cheers for all the good sounding 1073 clones on the market!!! Time will decide the winners!! For the record, I think if anyone is using the term hand-wiring it's probably a misnomer in marketing and what was really intended to be said was 'hand stuffed or hand populated' PCBs, as that's prob the larger difference between the assembly methods. Through-hole components are still placed through their eyelets by hand or with tweezers, usually by a lady in an Asian factory somewhere because the cost of labor is so much lower in China that it's still economically possible, and some factories there are still largely set up to operate that way. The WA does fit in that category, and the Heritage is making much greater use of SMT (surface mount technology) to automate the assembly process more, which makes alot of sense because labor prices are much higher in Spain. Do either of these methods themselves lend to a better product.. not reallly. Both have the potential for human error. At my first job in the industry, we had our own Philips pick-and-place machine (later a fleet of them) and so I was always OK with that technology. There is a 'type' of human error that comes into play with SMT, usually having to do with machine alignment or someone loading the wrong reel of parts into the machine for a certain board, etc... but good procedures can eliminate most of that. There is another 'type' of human error that comes into play with hand-populating PCBs, mainly mis-orienting the polarity of a capacitor or putting a wrong part in somewhere because you pulled from the wrong bin or what not. Obviously doing all hand-population would be a bit more prone to human error, but it does keep with the tradition of how those things were built originally... I think there will be other deciding factors besides those. For the record, I don't disagree with what you're saying about hand wiring, what "hand wiring" may actually mean or the pros and cons associated with these matters. However, I will say that your comparative description here is maybe just a little more charitable than I've seen on other sites... Does Golden Age = Warm = Heritage Elite? If not, let's discuss. What makes Spanish SMT better than Chinese through hole? This is an honest question. Is it the method or the maker or both? At least in the case of Heritage Elite and Warm, there seems to be similar quality parts, so that leaves you with SMT vs TH, power supply and overall layout as the next biggest potential differences in sound. What about these things, in your estimation, equates the Warm Neve clone with the Golden Age Neve clone, but places the Heritage Elite Neve clone on a higher rung?
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Post by ragan on Jan 20, 2018 3:04:43 GMT -6
People get so dogmatic about HAND WIRED and they very frequently confuse that term with “point to point”.
Just because you see a PCB doesn’t mean it wasn’t “hand-wired”. If it wasn’t, how the hell did all those resistors, capacitors, diodes, potentiometers, etc get there?
Me personally, I care about what the electrons care about. Namely: none of this branding stuff. If the circuit is well designed and implemented and does what I expect it to when I turn the knobs...I am satisfied.
If it gets to splitting sonic hairs (like it was for me with the Great River MP-2NV and the Heritage DMA-73) I get ‘em both in the studio, do some comparisons, go with my gut and move on.
It’s all subjective, but that’s what works for me.
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Post by cdkelly on Jan 20, 2018 3:17:06 GMT -6
People get so dogmatic about HAND WIRED and they very frequently confuse that term with “point to point”. Just because you see a PCB doesn’t mean it wasn’t “hand-wired”. If it wasn’t, how the hell did all those resistors, capacitors, diodes, potentiometers, etc get there? Me personally, I care about what the electrons care about. Namely: none of this branding stuff. If the circuit is well designed and implemented and does what I expect it to when I turn the knobs...I am satisfied. If it gets to splitting sonic hairs (like it was for me with the Great River MP-2NV and the Heritage DMA-73) I get ‘em both in the studio, do some comparisons, go with my gut and move on. It’s all subjective, but that’s what works for me. I think that's always the best advice.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 3:55:37 GMT -6
thought I read somewhere here that smt was inferior - maybe that was somewhere else?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 20, 2018 4:00:10 GMT -6
The only thing that matters is what works for you, otherwise why are you using the gear? I only started the thread, as over the last few years, here and on other sites, I have seen people requesting a Warm neve. I didn’t know anything about it until very recently , so I thought it cool and wondered what Warm’s take on the circuit and build would be. I certainly like the clips I have heard and the price point. I respect all entrepreneurs and appreciate the risks they run persuing their passions . As I have always had a good experience with Warm, am open to buying their products before others. I don’t have opportunity to audition everything I am interested in or have a 4 or 10 hour round trip drive which is a drag. I think US retailers are better with their return policies and interest rate deals so I think you guys in the states have better pre purchase opportunity, so I am more comfortable going with, for me, the known quality of Warm. Never met Bryce and still find it cool that, so far, he has answered every one of my emails and questions over the years. I am sure others have similar good experiences with Josh stam or the guys at Heritage etc. As Dr Bill said we sure have a shitload of great options for gear: lucky us !
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 4:26:57 GMT -6
I agree kcatthedog, but these forums aren't about pragmatism, the minutest detail needs to be explored at every opportunity I'm wondering if the manufacturing process will have an influence on the self noise, particularly one that will push 80db. I know most peeps won't need that ( my Daking can quietly run a ribbon or sm7b at 66db) but isn't noise a factor in high- end vs low end gear? drbill is the SB point to point, hand wired smt or through-hole. Interested just as a refererence on what decisions manufacturers make and why?
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Post by mulmany on Jan 20, 2018 8:30:21 GMT -6
I am not Brad, but he has stated that they use both smd and through hole on the same pcbs. Brad picked on electrical design and listening tests.
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Post by drbill on Jan 20, 2018 10:29:39 GMT -6
I agree kcatthedog , but these forums aren't about pragmatism, the minutest detail needs to be explored at every opportunity I'm wondering if the manufacturing process will have an influence on the self noise, particularly one that will push 80db. I know most peeps won't need that ( my Daking can quietly run a ribbon or sm7b at 66db) but isn't noise a factor in high- end vs low end gear? drbill is the SB point to point, hand wired smt or through-hole. Interested just as a refererence on what decisions manufacturers make and why? The SB is a combo of through hole and surface mount design. Each component chosen for a specific reason / sonic imprint. There are certain components that cannot be found in surface mount components - and vice versa. Surface mount can and often does exceed the specs (and arguably sonics) if well designed. And Brad is a rocket scientist after all..... As far as your noise question is concerned, it's about component choice, and layout / design. The layout / design is critical in optimizing performance in that regard. One wrongly placed component and your noise floor is compromised. That's why sometimes the design can be top notch, but the layout can shoot you in the foot. One of the reasons smart developers build prototypes until they get what they want. With hand wired gear, the wiring itself and how it's routed, twisted, etc. becomes critical to noise floor. Someone like Dan D or one of our other DIIY guru's could speak to that better than myself. PS - there are products that just couldn't be built without SMD. The Chroma is a good example. In one box you've got an API mic pre, a Neve mic pre, additional line inputs for both, a preset EQ/Filter that's configurable on the board, awesome metering, and an analog plug-in Color slot with parallel processing that allows for compressors, EQ, tape sim's, saturators, etc. to be loaded onboard. All of that in a ONE 500 space footprint. That could never happen solely with through hole components. It took both SMD and TH to make it work and sound as good as it does. If it was through hole only, it would be a 2+ 500 slot box, and cost twice - or maybe 3X's as much. Brad is all about making technology work FOR him in his design ethic, and not serving technology because of how someone did it 40 years ago. He and I use our ears, and he never gives up before being 100% satisfied with the sound, while using every possible new tech that's available to make stuff sound great, streamline the assembly process while making things more affordable and more compact. When the time comes, we'd be happy to put up either Chroma and/or the Silver Bullet in Neve mode against any of these new 1073 clones. Especially the ones without EQ. These boxes have already proven themselves to hold their own. I no longer have any prejudice against SMD.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 20, 2018 22:59:01 GMT -6
I agree kcatthedog , but these forums aren't about pragmatism, the minutest detail needs to be explored at every opportunity I'm wondering if the manufacturing process will have an influence on the self noise, particularly one that will push 80db. I know most peeps won't need that ( my Daking can quietly run a ribbon or sm7b at 66db) but isn't noise a factor in high- end vs low end gear? drbill is the SB point to point, hand wired smt or through-hole. Interested just as a refererence on what decisions manufacturers make and why? The SB is a combo of through hole and surface mount design. Each component chosen for a specific reason / sonic imprint. There are certain components that cannot be found in surface mount components - and vice versa. Surface mount can and often does exceed the specs (and arguably sonics) if well designed. And Brad is a rocket scientist after all..... As far as your noise question is concerned, it's about component choice, and layout / design. The layout / design is critical in optimizing performance in that regard. One wrongly placed component and your noise floor is compromised. That's why sometimes the design can be top notch, but the layout can shoot you in the foot. One of the reasons smart developers build prototypes until they get what they want. With hand wired gear, the wiring itself and how it's routed, twisted, etc. becomes critical to noise floor. Someone like Dan D or one of our other DIIY guru's could speak to that better than myself. PS - there are products that just couldn't be built without SMD. The Chroma is a good example. In one box you've got an API mic pre, a Neve mic pre, additional line inputs for both, a preset EQ/Filter that's configurable on the board, awesome metering, and an analog plug-in Color slot with parallel processing that allows for compressors, EQ, tape sim's, saturators, etc. to be loaded onboard. All of that in a ONE 500 space footprint. That could never happen solely with through hole components. It took both SMD and TH to make it work and sound as good as it does. If it was through hole only, it would be a 2+ 500 slot box, and cost twice - or maybe 3X's as much. Brad is all about making technology work FOR him in his design ethic, and not serving technology because of how someone did it 40 years ago. He and I use our ears, and he never gives up before being 100% satisfied with the sound, while using every possible new tech that's available to make stuff sound great, streamline the assembly process while making things more affordable and more compact. When the time comes, we'd be happy to put up either Chroma and/or the Silver Bullet in Neve mode against any of these new 1073 clones. Especially the ones without EQ. These boxes have already proven themselves to hold their own. I no longer have any prejudice against SMD. I think you have spent way to much time with Brad, not a bad thing in any way, hell I'd love to spend more time picking his brain , but Bill your starting to sound like him!😎
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Post by drbill on Jan 20, 2018 23:48:46 GMT -6
The SB is a combo of through hole and surface mount design. Each component chosen for a specific reason / sonic imprint. There are certain components that cannot be found in surface mount components - and vice versa. Surface mount can and often does exceed the specs (and arguably sonics) if well designed. And Brad is a rocket scientist after all..... As far as your noise question is concerned, it's about component choice, and layout / design. The layout / design is critical in optimizing performance in that regard. One wrongly placed component and your noise floor is compromised. That's why sometimes the design can be top notch, but the layout can shoot you in the foot. One of the reasons smart developers build prototypes until they get what they want. With hand wired gear, the wiring itself and how it's routed, twisted, etc. becomes critical to noise floor. Someone like Dan D or one of our other DIIY guru's could speak to that better than myself. PS - there are products that just couldn't be built without SMD. The Chroma is a good example. In one box you've got an API mic pre, a Neve mic pre, additional line inputs for both, a preset EQ/Filter that's configurable on the board, awesome metering, and an analog plug-in Color slot with parallel processing that allows for compressors, EQ, tape sim's, saturators, etc. to be loaded onboard. All of that in a ONE 500 space footprint. That could never happen solely with through hole components. It took both SMD and TH to make it work and sound as good as it does. If it was through hole only, it would be a 2+ 500 slot box, and cost twice - or maybe 3X's as much. Brad is all about making technology work FOR him in his design ethic, and not serving technology because of how someone did it 40 years ago. He and I use our ears, and he never gives up before being 100% satisfied with the sound, while using every possible new tech that's available to make stuff sound great, streamline the assembly process while making things more affordable and more compact. When the time comes, we'd be happy to put up either Chroma and/or the Silver Bullet in Neve mode against any of these new 1073 clones. Especially the ones without EQ. These boxes have already proven themselves to hold their own. I no longer have any prejudice against SMD. I think you have spent way to much time with Brad, not a bad thing in any way, hell I'd love to spend more time picking his brain , but Bill your starting to sound like him!😎 Haha!!! That's scary. I mean, really. LOL
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Post by rowmat on Jan 21, 2018 0:34:47 GMT -6
thought I read somewhere here that smt was inferior - maybe that was somewhere else? Most of the criticisms of SMT are related to the perceived difficulty of carrying out DIY repairs or mods which through hole is generally considered easier to work with basic tools. Also many hi-fi/audiophiles began spreading disinfo years ago that SMT IC devices were sonically inferior to the same device in a through hole IC which is often bunk as in many cases the 'contents' of each version were identical while the SMT signal paths were generally shorter anyway. There are obviously some difficulties trying to accurately replicate vintage through hole products using SMT devices if no equivalent SMT component is available. Properly designed SMT assemblies using decent components are fine, however as SMT was primarily introduced as a means of cutting both manufacturing component and assembly costs through the use of automation SMT is often considered inferior because of the perception that reduced costs mean reduced quality. Also the greater component density provided by SMT designs especially with complex circuits and routing can't be understated.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 21, 2018 1:51:52 GMT -6
Also the greater component density provided by SMT designs especially with complex circuits and routing can't be understated.
Is that a good or a bad thing ?
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Post by rowmat on Jan 21, 2018 2:12:18 GMT -6
Also the greater component density provided by SMT designs especially with complex circuits and routing can't be understated. Is that a good or a bad thing ? It means you can watch Netflix on your watch!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 4:22:31 GMT -6
Thanks for the info guys. So there is no real disadvantage in the actual manufacturing process of Warm, Heritage etc vs other high end gear, just things like transformer choice, pot quality and the actual design?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 21, 2018 6:01:43 GMT -6
If the QC is there in the manufacturing process that would seem to be the implication.
That is actually why I first commented on the price difference. Theoretically the manufacturing costs are more efficient on the Heritage build, but it’s price is higher?
Are its component costs truly that much more, is the profit margin higher or did they just price it higher in a way in relationship to its more prestigious build?
As Warm always looks to a very good value proposition, has it simply built a highly similar product and priced it more competitively ?
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Post by mikec on Jan 21, 2018 8:47:59 GMT -6
All this smart talk makes my head hurt. I just want to turn it on, dial it in, and make beautiful music.
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Post by ragan on Jan 21, 2018 9:20:32 GMT -6
If the QC is there in the manufacturing process that would seem to be the implication. That is actually why I first commented on the price difference. Theoretically the manufacturing costs are more efficient on the Heritage build, but it’s price is higher? Are its component costs truly that much more, is the profit margin higher or did they just price it higher in a way in relationship to its more prestigious build? As Warm always looks to a very good value proposition, has it simply built a highly similar product and priced it more competitively ? Labor cost would be the obvious place they differ I think. China vs Spain.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 21, 2018 9:41:39 GMT -6
Yes probably but in terms of units of productivity vs labour costs, if the soainish labour cost is higher and their productivity is higher it would theoretically reduce that difference? Or perhaps the Chinese productivity even by hand is higher than you might expect increasing its production efficiency and creating more cost advantage. Cook from Apple says the perceived lower Chinese wage cost is no longer true? Don’t know myself?
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Post by drbill on Jan 21, 2018 9:44:24 GMT -6
IF the Heritage is SMT (and I have no idea if it is or not - but I guess that's the implication from their comments at this point until we see the insides), it's assembly process would be GREATLY more efficient than the Warm based on the pics from the first post of this thread of the insides of the Warm which show upwards of 10 small PCB's in the Warm. All of which need to be stuffed, tested, meticulously assembled into the case, and interconnected (ahhh, maybe that's the "hand wiring"). That's a LOT of (presumably Chinese) labor. It's definitely a throw back in design to 40+ years ago in terms of (IN) efficiency (and presumably design). I'm guessing they did that because it is the "traditional" way a 1073 was made. They certainly didn't do it because of ease of assembly. Sounds like these two companies took a vastly different approach. It will be interesting to see how they sound in comparison to each other. My guess is they will sound pretty dam close to each other.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 21, 2018 10:44:49 GMT -6
Thanks for the info guys. So there is no real disadvantage in the actual manufacturing process of Warm, Heritage etc vs other high end gear, just things like transformer choice, pot quality and the actual design? Every decision in the design and manufacturer of audio components is a compromise, the art in this is how those various compromises work together. So yes these new clones can sound pretty good. They also have the advantage's of economics of scale, meaning they get price breaks on parts because they are building more pieces per run than your average boutique builder. In fact for some basic parts like resistors if they purchase through the company that is actually building the boards they could in theory buy in big enough numbers to skip distributors and buy direct from manufacturers. Everybody always new this could in theory be done, but the one thing you need to do something like this is a tone of cash up front!
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 21, 2018 10:52:30 GMT -6
All this smart talk makes my head hurt. I just want to turn it on, dial it in, and make beautiful music. Plan A!
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Post by hadaja on Feb 21, 2018 17:32:39 GMT -6
Okay I put my order in as they were doing $80 off so it looks like March the 7th I shall have mine. Did anyone else take the plunge?
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Post by wiz on Feb 21, 2018 18:40:37 GMT -6
Okay I put my order in as they were doing $80 off so it looks like March the 7th I shall have mine. Did anyone else take the plunge? You coming up my way? I have a aml 1073 and the Bae 1073 dmp we could race em.... cheers Wiz
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