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Post by mrholmes on Dec 6, 2017 17:44:31 GMT -6
Maybe someone can convince me but I still cannot see how 1's and 0's will ever be the same as analog. I use both but..... If it sounds good I use a plug in. We are not talking religion - we share experiences. Many plug ins show it can be done, and like BK always said.g God sounding digital mastering EQs are there since decades. It all comes down if they want to do it. If they would do it in one step they cant charge over and over again. Listen to the UAD 1176 MK2 versus one of the family in HW. If you blind AB this there is no doubt that you hear the sound of the same parents. To my ear they nailed it with the 1176s. I bet they already know how to get even better than this. I dont like the idea of DSP cards so I sold mine. Steven Slate always promised that all the AE he ABd the VCC with where not able to hear a diffrence in BLIND AB. I was not there but I can imagine, given the level matching is extremly accurate, that its true. I mean crank the VCC Master BUS in SSL E Mode -mixing a rock song- and it will remind you on something. IMO it even gets better if you push that sound into some real hardware. And not to forget when SS is mixing pure ITB it always sounds very very good. I am sure SS is extremly experienced and gifted in mixing. Thats maybe the biggest weak link some of us may have.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 6, 2017 19:51:17 GMT -6
Thanks Joseph. I too don't find the unison tech a big breakthrough, maybe it helps the sound a little.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 7, 2017 13:07:49 GMT -6
One big thing is you don't want to lose the overall view of the mix and be able to adjust things. If you spend time bouncing everything through a few hardware pieces this can happen. Well, with my 99% hardware approach it seems kinda obvious, but I can easily see a more hybrid approach could easily end up with a LOT of channels of harware compression - I have I guess about 15 in the rack right now, plus an old Valley People Dynamite that I need to get around to fixing one of these days. The thing is, not all those are particularly costly units (at least they didn't cost me that much) - 4 of them are old Allison Research Gain Brains, and 4 are ADR Scamps (2xS01 and 2xS31) which can found pretty cheap if you look around and are patient. Those old modular units that fit proprietary rack designs have got cheap now that the world has adopted 500 series as a standard. Of course I also have a couple modern stereo comps (Daking FET III and A-Designs "The Nail"), plus a few others. Oddly enough I don't have ANY of the currently popular classic comps (LA2A, 1176, etc.) - they're on my wish list but originals are too expensive and I'm hesitant to DIY as my close-up vision isn't what it used to be and my hand isn't as steady as it once was. The fully hybrid workflow does allow you to get away with a lot less hardware, but I suspect that if I went that route I'd still want a good collection of hardware comps..... but I guess that would require a bunch more channels of conversion.... and I'd need to start worrying about things like latency compensation, which isn't an issue at present.... ^^THIS.^^
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 7, 2017 13:16:12 GMT -6
For reverb. There is yet not a plug which does the Alesis Midiverb 2 or 3 trick on guitars. MVs and guitars is a never ending love affair. What trick is that? The only Alesis verb I currently have have is a Microverb that I picked up dirt cheap for live gigs which I've found surprising useful as a spare in the studio (my main verb is a PCM90 with the extra voice card), but Midiverbs can be had pretty cheap these days....
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Post by drbill on Dec 7, 2017 13:16:51 GMT -6
Great capture fine, but its only HALF (at best) of the equation. Hardware during mixing is absolutely necessary as well. Just remember - on those classic records, they went through those classic analog paths 2-3 times. During tracking, during production, and then again during mixing. To say great analog on the front end is enough is calling things short.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 7, 2017 13:29:33 GMT -6
Plugins will get there when the marketing departments start letting the developers do their own thing, not trying to copy an analog piece! I'm not entirely certain I'd agree with that. I can see there being the potential for a lot of products that "seemed like a great idea at the time" but turn out to be not that useful for one reason or another. OTOH there are a few indie devlopers (Like Chris J at Airwindows) who do quite well with that approach... But those guys are already doing it, about all the benefit that a big company would provide is promo and maybe a steady paycheck. Whether that would offset the freedom of being your own man is questionable and something the individual would have to decide.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 7, 2017 13:42:38 GMT -6
I vaguely recall Midiverbs were very noisy. Am I wrong?
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Post by joseph on Dec 7, 2017 13:52:45 GMT -6
Great capture fine, but its only HALF (at best) of the equation. Hardware during mixing is absolutely necessary as well. Just remember - on those classic records, they went through those classic analog paths 2-3 times. During tracking, during production, and then again during mixing. To say great analog on the front end is enough is calling things short. I guess question is whether hardware during mixing is that much better than plugins which emulate hardware. I find some of the latest UAD emulations very convincing and 3D indeed, to the point where I'm not sure a cheap outboard eq or comp or a piece of hardware which is better suited to another application (rather than the hardware a given plugin is emulating, i.e. the phase response and eq curves) is better. I have, for example found plugins that do a better job of preserving the phase of snare and kick relative to overheads/rooms than the hardware I have, from time to time, with the shaping I'm trying to do. I think for now I've settled on track with hardware, then set up the mix using hardware on key things like vocal, drum bus, 2 bus, and bounce other tracks through hardware and see if the level matched versions sound better or worse than the plugin versions. This goes for re-amping too. This lets me keep an eye on processing the mix as a whole, without tons of additional investment and threat of complicated hardware recalls.
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Post by svart on Dec 7, 2017 14:51:57 GMT -6
For reverb. There is yet not a plug which does the Alesis Midiverb 2 or 3 trick on guitars. MVs and guitars is a never ending love affair. What trick is that? The only Alesis verb I currently have have is a Microverb that I picked up dirt cheap for live gigs which I've found surprising useful as a spare in the studio (my main verb is a PCM90 with the extra voice card), but Midiverbs can be had pretty cheap these days.... The only "trick" I know is some esoteric and novel reverb presets that create a very interesting atmospheric sound on guitars. They call them the "bloom" presets. They're not quite reverse, not quite regenerative, and not like anything else. It does seem that a few plugs are trying to emulate them now. They were pretty much the go-to for shoegaze and dreampop guitars through the 90's and 2000's. I don't know if this is what he's talking about, but it's the only one I know of from the midiverb lineup.
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Post by drsax on Dec 7, 2017 15:13:51 GMT -6
Analog makes me happy for sure. My favorite time working is when I have time to tweak audio in the analog world. I have a pretty extensive hybrid setup though and plugins are getting better and better. No, not the same as hardware, but there are some really nice plugin tools out there. I think where a lot of guys have adopted plugins is not necessarily because they think plugins sound better, but as it has become increasingly difficult to earn in the music industry, workflow has become critical. I often get called to deliver on really tight deadlines, and if I can’t make the deadline, they won’t hire me. So... with all that said, it’s nice to have great plugins available to aid in that quest. I sometimes find dialing in great results on certain things is faster with hardware... except for the time it takes to render that audio into my session. But, Overall mixing with more plugs is faster in the end. When I’m on a tight deadline, or need to do a ton of recalls, those “inferior” sounding plugins have saved me many times When given more time and budget, I spend more time on my analog gear, but I have nothing against plugins. All that to say, I think it’s less about the analog vs digital debate that many make it to be. I wouldnt part with either personally.
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Post by drbill on Dec 7, 2017 17:00:35 GMT -6
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Post by drsax on Dec 7, 2017 17:13:28 GMT -6
dialing in great results on certain things is faster with hardware... except for the time it takes to render that audio into my session. d - the answer is simple. More DA/AD, more hardware, more smiles, better mixes. Hah!! Indeed Man!! I almost mentioned you in my post... I need 96 or more I/O like you drbill - I have to suffice with a measly 50-ish channels, lol
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Post by drbill on Dec 7, 2017 17:22:04 GMT -6
Hah!! Indeed Man!! I almost mentioned you in my post... I need 96 or more I/O like you drbill - I have to suffice with a measly 50-ish channels, lol 50?!?!?! Pffft. I thought you were a pro man. I'm sorry. I must now delete you from my favorites list on my iPhone. haha But seriously though, if I had to render all my hardware tracks while mixing, I'd probably use more plugins too. Having more i/0 is the ticket. Then add more hardware as funds allow. <<thumbsup>>
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 7, 2017 19:27:32 GMT -6
Hah!! Indeed Man!! I almost mentioned you in my post... I need 96 or more I/O like you drbill - I have to suffice with a measly 50-ish channels, lol I don't have 96 IOs it's just 16. That is making a big difference compared to mix pure itb. Not to forget to mention that I usee the Neve 1073 and the HW in record mode. To my ear it just sounds more like a record. I don't care anymore if I can get the same inside the box with 1 million tricks - how to do it right. Using the HW frees my mind for creative thinking and makes mixing much easier to me. Interesting is that I never sold hardware. I still own my first compressors by Behringer. The mdx1000 is twenty five years old and is my favourite compressor for e guitars. The gear I use is everything, but not expensive. Most of it is used gear. I'm sure high end gear sounds great... but there is also a lot of fun one or two levels lower...😊
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Post by drsax on Dec 7, 2017 21:24:47 GMT -6
Hah!! Indeed Man!! I almost mentioned you in my post... I need 96 or more I/O like you drbill - I have to suffice with a measly 50-ish channels, lol 50?!?!?! Pffft. I thought you were a pro man. I'm sorry. I must now delete you from my favorites list on my iPhone. haha But seriously though, if I had to render all my hardware tracks while mixing, I'd probably use more plugins too. Having more i/0 is the ticket. Then add more hardware as funds allow. <<thumbsup>> Lol... it’s an endless quest. If I had the extra I/O then I’d want several of each unit so I could leave settings untouched so no recall would be needed. Oh the sacrifices we make
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Post by gouge on Dec 7, 2017 21:28:46 GMT -6
i confess in 2017 that anything can be made to sound good.
except poor musicianship.
it's not the gear...
this year i've recorded some great sounds out of some very shit gear
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,940
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Post by ericn on Dec 7, 2017 21:29:41 GMT -6
i confess in 2017 that anything can be made to sound good. except poor musicianship. it's not the gear... this year i've recorded some great sounds out of some very shit gear Bill's pulling you to the dark side 😎
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 7, 2017 21:30:23 GMT -6
Tchad Blake doesn’t seem to have much of a problem working in the box.
Then again most of the tracks he gets are done by a serious pro, or he tracks it himself.
I watched him for an hour at AES this year at the mix with the masters and he blew my damn mind - the guy just has a different brain...
It’s the Indian, not the arrow.
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Post by drbill on Dec 7, 2017 21:47:38 GMT -6
i confess in 2017 that anything can be made to sound good. except poor musicianship. it's not the gear... this year i've recorded some great sounds out of some very shit gear Bill's pulling you to the dark side 😎 No, no, no.....it's into the light. The dark stuff comes with 1's and 0's......
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Post by drbill on Dec 7, 2017 21:48:06 GMT -6
It’s the Indian, not the arrow. Yeah, but give the indian a better arrow......and look out.
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Post by wiz on Dec 7, 2017 21:49:52 GMT -6
I think the big thing when you see top guys mixin g ITB...it's not tracked with interface preamps and no outboard.
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 8, 2017 5:33:23 GMT -6
I think the big thing when you see top guys mixin g ITB...it's not tracked with interface preamps and no outboard. Cheers Wiz I said this on the other blue board for years. If the big guys tell you they do it all ITB they dont tell you that they get files which have seen million dollar gear. I dont care what others say. I am more happy using hardware ... end of the story for me.
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Post by drsax on Dec 8, 2017 9:29:00 GMT -6
I think the big thing when you see top guys mixin g ITB...it's not tracked with interface preamps and no outboard. Cheers Wiz Yes, tracking is a whole different beast. I track completely with quality Outboard, then mix hybrid. When I get tracks from others that are poorly recorded, or that lack sonic goodness, then they generally get treatment through Outboard gear
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Post by Guitar on Dec 9, 2017 12:40:12 GMT -6
I think it's important to do both just so we can continue to have this discussion, haha.
I think tracking with hardware is the next frontier for me... haven't really learned that one yet.
Mixing, I couldn't care less whether I used hardware or plugins. It just makes no difference to me.
That said, I am currently re-wiring my racks for more ergonomic hybrid mixing. I just want to see what the fuss is about!
I do absolutely get "different" results, but better/worse is not usually following one or the other.
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Post by ragan on Dec 9, 2017 15:21:36 GMT -6
Tchad Blake doesn’t seem to have much of a problem working in the box. Then again most of the tracks he gets are done by a serious pro, or he tracks it himself. I watched him for an hour at AES this year at the mix with the masters and he blew my damn mind - the guy just has a different brain... It’s the Indian, not the arrow. Tchad Blake is a sonic hero of mine. That guy is amazing. So much soul and vibe to his mixes. I'd love to do one of those location seminar deals he does sometimes with MWTM.
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