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Post by swurveman on Nov 24, 2017 19:15:16 GMT -6
I'm recording a band and learned another hard lesson. The guy I thought was the band leader- he wrote the songs, is the singer, main guitar player and the most talented-gave me a reference song to use as I mixed. So, I gave him a similar bass/kick drum balance as the reference. What happens? The drummer and bass player want more kick and bass and he starts giving me other reference mixes to listen to that sound nothing like the first reference mix. He tells me those mixes are what they like and he wants the bass/ kick to sound like that. He tells me he's trying to please everybody. I tell him from now on the entire band needs to sign off on the reference mix before I'll mix them again. Or, if they finally like the balance, this is what I'll use for the songs going forward. After the hassle of all this back and forth, the guy agrees as he's got to send off the mixes to the entire band and get their feedback, which is a hassle for him.
So, this got me wondering: Back in the day of producers, how much clout did the producer have to tell the bass player and drummer "this is what the bass/kick balance is going to be"? Or, has it always been "the drummer wants more kick" and so forth?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 24, 2017 21:29:07 GMT -6
It was certainly much easier than with today's infinite tracks.
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Post by stormymondays on Nov 25, 2017 3:47:59 GMT -6
Producing is an art and a science, and the variables are infinite. However, a producer that doesn't have more or less the final word in this issue isn't much of a producer.
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Post by rowmat on Nov 25, 2017 4:15:46 GMT -6
Question: How much clout did producers have back in the day? Answer: Okay next question?
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Post by jayson on Nov 25, 2017 11:35:14 GMT -6
I gotta imagine that those tensions always existed, but I kinda doubt Ringo felt too comfortable telling George Martin how to mix. Who's gonna tell Bob Ezrin that they don't like his kick/bass balance?
What's the point of having a producer if you don't allow him to make those decisions? Seems like the best producers I know of all seem to inspire the confidence of the people they are producing by having that authority and exercising it wisely - earning the trust of the client.
As far as mixes go; there really isn't a "final mix" in my world. I'm happy to do as many revisions as a client wants incorporating whatever notes they might have. But from a policy standpoint that's an ala-carte item. It isn't free so the ball is in their court as to how many revisions they want to pay for and how much time they have to make them. They know before we start working that mix revisions become a new invoice and they will also require new scheduling.
It's not really a bad policy to give 'em a shot at a more customized mix if that's what they want; you just have to be crystal clear about what constitutes a "Revision". Predictably, chasing their tails doesn't usually result in a significantly better product and it becomes economically self-regulating anyway. But they walk away having had a fair shake - and the door is always open to do more if it makes 'em happy. It's a question of how much time and money they want to spend.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 25, 2017 12:34:51 GMT -6
I'm recording a band and learned another hard lesson. The guy I thought was the band leader- he wrote the songs, is the singer, main guitar player and the most talented-gave me a reference song to use as I mixed. So, I gave him a similar bass/kick drum balance as the reference. What happens? The drummer and bass player want more kick and bass and he starts giving me other reference mixes to listen to that sound nothing like the first reference mix. He tells me those mixes are what they like and he wants the bass/ kick to sound like that. He tells me he's trying to please everybody. I tell him from now on the entire band needs to sign off on the reference mix before I'll mix them again. Or, if they finally like the balance, this is what I'll use for the songs going forward. After the hassle of all this back and forth, the guy agrees as he's got to send off the mixes to the entire band and get their feedback, which is a hassle for him. So, this got me wondering: Back in the day of producers, how much clout did the producer have to tell the bass player and drummer "this is what the bass/kick balance is going to be"? Or, has it always been "the drummer wants more kick" and so forth? It used to be "the drummer doesn't get a say". Unless, of course, the drummer was the featured artist. Understand, back then the producer and the engineer were seldom, if ever, the same person. Back then it was not too uncommon for the band and/or featured artist to hate the mix, production, and even choice of song when a record came out - and to continue hating it until it became a hit...
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Post by formatcyes on Nov 25, 2017 16:21:58 GMT -6
The trouble with mixing is you never finish at some point you just give up. Even worse when you have to please multiple people bring back money to music so we can have real producers again.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 25, 2017 16:41:56 GMT -6
I worked with some of the most famous producers in the Rock n Roll game...
Back in the 70's - 80's, they had the final word, many times to the dismay of the band!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 25, 2017 17:29:18 GMT -6
A producer is no more an engineer than a motion picture director is a cinematographer. Their job is to draw the very best performance out of everybody on the team exactly like a motion picture or theatrical director.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 26, 2017 12:06:32 GMT -6
The trouble with mixing is you never finish at some point you just give up. Not true. If you're willing to play that game. Yes.
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Post by drbill on Nov 26, 2017 14:05:33 GMT -6
The trouble with mixing is you never finish at some point you just give up. That's an old joke. Been told many times, and to be honest, I've used it myself on occasion. The problem with it is that it infers a sense of failure. That as mixers we just "give up" on our mixes. Nothing could be further from the truth IME. That comment is not even close to reality in 2017. Especially now that ITB mixers have total recall and the ability to jump back and forth and make tweaks over and over, and hybrid mixers (like myself) have enough outboard to allows settings to "stay the same" on their outboard as they jump back and forth between projects. I rarely let go of a mix until I feel I've taken it to 110% of where I personally can get it. There's an occasional situation where the above "give up" comment rings true, but rarely anymore now that the console and PBays and outboard does not need to be "struck" so that work can go on for different sessions.
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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 26, 2017 14:21:30 GMT -6
The trouble with mixing is you never finish at some point you just give up. That's an old joke. Been told many times, and to be honest, I've used it myself on occasion. The problem with it is that it infers a sense of failure. That as mixers we just "give up" on our mixes. Nothing could be further from the truth IME. That comment is not even close to reality in 2017. Especially now that ITB mixers have total recall and the ability to jump back and forth and make tweaks over and over, and hybrid mixers (like myself) have enough outboard to allows settings to "stay the same" on their outboard as they jump back and forth between projects. I rarely let go of a mix until I feel I've taken it to 110% of where I personally can get it. There's an occasional situation where the above "give up" comment rings true, but rarely anymore now that the console and PBays and outboard does not need to be "struck" so that work can go on for different sessions. There's an old saying that "Art is never finished, only abandoned".
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Post by adamjbrass on Nov 27, 2017 15:23:17 GMT -6
The trouble with mixing is you never finish at some point you just give up. Even worse when you have to please multiple people bring back money to music so we can have real producers again. Due to this very problem I have learned that, in order to spot the exact moment, when you can no longer take the tracks any further, you simply must assume that recording them properly was the problem, or that you must concede your expectation of the sound in general and make it work. I usually take the Recording Route, which in turn really forces me to get very serious on the front end of a recording. I have grown tired of mixing in a sense, if the tracks are lacking. The better tracks you have, the easier it is to mix.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 27, 2017 15:36:02 GMT -6
The trouble with mixing is you never finish at some point you just give up. Even worse when you have to please multiple people bring back money to music so we can have real producers again. Due to this very problem I have learned that, in order to spot the exact moment, when you can no longer take the tracks any further, you simply must assume that recording them properly was the problem, or that you must concede your expectation of the sound in general and make it work. I usually take the Recording Route, which in turn really forces me to get very serious on the front end of a recording. I have grown tired of mixing in a sense, if the tracks are lacking. The better tracks you have, the easier it is to mix. I have been learning that lately, too.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 27, 2017 17:32:22 GMT -6
Yep, and sometimes you just have to re-record a part...or the whole thing......
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Post by christopher on Nov 27, 2017 21:43:29 GMT -6
I remember when I was too young to record, studios had way lower rates for tracking than they did for mixing. I was always confounded, why did they price it that way? Now I know.
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Post by drbill on Nov 27, 2017 22:17:04 GMT -6
That's weird. Studio's I've worked at for tracking are always more expensive for tracking a band or orchestra or group of singers than for mixing.
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Post by christopher on Nov 27, 2017 23:03:50 GMT -6
Well I was pretty young and my memory is getting fuzzier as I age, so I could have it backwards? Sorry if I do. But it does enter my mind sometimes now, maybe I should encourage them to track more and make that part cheaper? It's pretty enjoyable for me tracking talent, getting a sound, saying "that was good, but let's try again" and just sit there listening while the time passes. I feel like I'm working much harder mixing when they are all in the control room "can you make the kick more boomy and open? Can you make bass more growly? Can you add a big fat reverb to snare? Can you fix that drum fill? Can you make guitars bigger with more treble? Can you put echo on only these words?".. all while I'm just trying to make a balanced mix. But I do like it when they are there because they can all hash out what they want, and they can all hear how it sounds, and compromise in the moment. I guess if mixing cost more they'd probably just hire some other mixing engineer lol.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 0:57:31 GMT -6
I remember when I was too young to record, studios had way lower rates for tracking than they did for mixing. I was always confounded, why did they price it that way? Now I know. Tracking takes longer.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 1:00:56 GMT -6
Well I was pretty young and my memory is getting fuzzier as I age, so I could have it backwards? Sorry if I do. But it does enter my mind sometimes now, maybe I should encourage them to track more and make that part cheaper? It's pretty enjoyable for me tracking talent, getting a sound, saying "that was good, but let's try again" and just sit there listening while the time passes. I feel like I'm working much harder mixing when they are all in the control room "can you make the kick more boomy and open? Can you make bass more growly? Can you add a big fat reverb to snare? Can you fix that drum fill? Can you make guitars bigger with more treble? Can you put echo on only these words?".. all while I'm just trying to make a balanced mix. But I do like it when they are there because they can all hash out what they want, and they can all hear how it sounds, and compromise in the moment. I guess if mixing cost more they'd probably just hire some other mixing engineer lol. That's why you don't let them into the control room. Why do you think most big studios had game rooms? When you're 90%-95% done maybe you can let them in. Except for the lead singer, the guitar player, and the drummer.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Nov 28, 2017 3:50:25 GMT -6
The band pays for everything themselves these days. In their heads that means they're just as much a producer as the producer. Best case scenario, in my experience: A designated (by the band or by the person himself) spokesperson for the band approaches you for a recording, asking you to produce, to avoid bickering in the band(...). "What the producer says, goes". Which is bullshit. That person is only looking for a voice from outside the band to promote her/his own agenda. This happens EVERY time. But at least then you only have to deal with 1 person's delusions of grandeur. Not 5.
I've never had the "pleasure" of being a producer hired by a label, but I cannot imagine it being much different. They will tell you what to do. The people who pay, decide.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 28, 2017 10:47:06 GMT -6
The artist has almost always paid for everything.
My experience, which includes engineering for Stevie Wonder and Smokey Robinson, is that "self-producing" always takes five times as long as having a producer pacing the sessions and making the decisions. Both had been produced in the past by top people so they were by no means "self-taught."
What happens today is mostly "no-producer" and I suspect it's another factor in why people seem to be yawning at most new recordings.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 16:26:14 GMT -6
The artist has almost always paid for everything. My experience, which includes engineering for Stevie Wonder and Smokey Robinson, is that "self-producing" always takes five times as long as having a producer pacing the sessions and making the decisions. Both had been produced in the past by top people so they were by no means "self-taught." What happens today is mostly "no-producer" and I suspect it's another factor in why people seem to be yawning at most new recordings. The difference now is that the artist pays up front. About the "no-producer" - I concur absolutely, but just try telling (most) people that....
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 28, 2017 18:59:18 GMT -6
The artist has almost always paid for everything. My experience, which includes engineering for Stevie Wonder and Smokey Robinson, is that "self-producing" always takes five times as long as having a producer pacing the sessions and making the decisions. Both had been produced in the past by top people so they were by no means "self-taught." What happens today is mostly "no-producer" and I suspect it's another factor in why people seem to be yawning at most new recordings. Bob, Funny you go to the self produced thing, even when I was young and not turning knobs I noticed the value of a set of ears not invested in the song. I have set it before but the hardest sound to get a handle on is the one in somebody's head! Often the value of a producer is the economy of someone who is more vested in what we can get vs someone who's chasing the sound in their head!
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Post by Vincent R. on Nov 28, 2017 20:01:38 GMT -6
My favorite is the lead artist who is self producing who brings a friend who obviously has no actual music background.
I was recording this industrial rock guy. He would send me stems to the crazy arrangements he would make. Then he would come by and cut vocals. It was crazy cause I came in half way through his EP. The original studio just couldn't get his mixes right. The vocal always sounded separate. A mutual friend recommended he talk to me, so I did a quick remix of one of his songs and sent it back. I may sing opera, but I spent many an hour listening to NIN and Depeche Mode. But I was trying to match the tone of his original recorded tracks. He would always bring his friend who would immediately nit pick everything we had just done. I would have to quickly EQ, compress, and add effects so they could hear what it would sound like when done. SMH.
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