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Post by popmann on Nov 26, 2017 9:49:20 GMT -6
No, under 0dbfs (digital full scale).
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 26, 2017 10:52:53 GMT -6
20 dB under full sample. Decent analog gear has at least 20 dB. of headroom above +4.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2017 10:59:41 GMT -6
Depends on your calibration. I think Bob was talking real VU, nothing to do with digital. You can set your digital dBFS level to whatever you like. I have my converters set so that -14dBFS = 0dB VU on the real VU meter = 77dBSPL in the room (with pink noise). Nicely recorded 70's rock stuff sounds great at 0dBVU at a perfect level in the room with my monitor controller set at 0dB (relative). According to my Crookwood VU meter manual: "Typically you’ll set up your levels so that at say ‐14dBfs sine you’ll get 0VU. This means that your 0dBFs level is +18dBu (14dB of headroom in digital till 0dBFs, plus 0VU (which is +4dBu) = 18dBu)!" My VU has attentuation in 3dB stepos too, for louder/mastered/modern music. But this is really getting into entire system wide calibration that I would recommend everyone do. Best article I've read on it here: www.soundonsound.com/techniques/establishing-project-studio-reference-monitoring-levelsAny VU meter will show you 23dB of level (from -20 to +3). If everything's calibrated nicely/well gain staged, when tracking shoot for below zero on the VU and you should be good to go around mix time.
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Post by popmann on Nov 26, 2017 11:55:02 GMT -6
Yeah, actually, part of MY issue with even discussing "LUFS" is that it's literally "realtive to full scale"--which is only useful in mastering. you should never be near full scale in tracking and mixing so my LUFS WILL be something like -25 or something even if it "only" has a DR12 range, because it's ALSO peaking at -11dbfs(on a digital momentary ballistic) or something.
it cuts to the heart of the matter--mixing is about balance. You don't mix to a loudness. If I give Bob a well balanced mix peaking at -12dbfs and say crush it like a Demi Levato record, it will work better than if I give him one peaking at -1dbfs. If you need to go to an extreme of modern deafcon loudness, there ARE some mix considerations....BALANCE considerations....important to get a little more OCD about noises...and reverb return levels (or reverb at all)....but, none of it benefits from pushing to full scale in the mix process.
Thus the idea of "mixing to" a certain loudness-and PARTICULARLY an absolute peak loudness, which factors into LU-FULLSCALE...is flawed out of the gate....it's that people are thinking that they need to achieve what is 100% "mastering loudness" during the mix which they won't have any further mastering done. But, here's the thing--don't. If you masturb it, and I DO for my own stuff--it's a second project/process. ALWAYS. The mix is the mix....the master is the master. I tell people all the time they need to learn the difference in song demos and records for release--sale deal here, only now people blend it from "here's an drum machine beat and a riff idea tape" and want that project to end in a finished DR7 master for iTunes. If you want to know the "secret" to old guys' having good sounding work? Focus where the focus IS in the moment....if you're swapping snare drum samples from a MIDI drum track from the initial demo while mixing with crazy automations through a lookahead limiter, you simply won't achieve what you're after. It's not really that it can't happen on a TECHNICAL level in a modern workstation...it's that it's a human deficiency. YOU can't likely do it. I KNOW I can't, and I feel like I've done this my whole life.
#moCoffee #moPumpkinPie
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Post by stormymondays on Nov 26, 2017 11:59:35 GMT -6
I second the recommendation! I've been thinking of getting the Crockwood meters myself too...
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Post by popmann on Nov 26, 2017 14:18:19 GMT -6
I've tried to get people to understand that with an ITB studio, the only real "calibration" is the monitoring. If you open a drum VI and it doesn't make you afraid it will blow your speakers, you're not configured correctly.
The default levels of ALL of them is WAY too high, because you'll get nearly fullscale from a 127 snare drum...I usually just start all VIs and back the output down 10db before I hit a key. If I'm going to change presets, I'll just use a gain plug after. Some that's fine....some need a little MORE attn....some I end up backing it to -8 instead....this is why if you START a production with an Addictive/Superior/EZD kit playing a beat to fullscale, your recorded audio is ALL compromised and you're constantly trying to get things louder via a million ways. If your cue mixer is ALSO your DAW, you get screwed further by that.
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Post by wiz on Nov 26, 2017 14:52:25 GMT -6
It's hard to go wrong with a VU meter set for 20 dB. of headroom. Would that be -20db under +4? Trying to learn here. Thanks. 20 dB under full scale. the specs of your interface will determine what actual level that is. cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Nov 26, 2017 14:52:38 GMT -6
It's hard to go wrong with a VU meter set for 20 dB. of headroom. Would that be -20db under +4? Trying to learn here. Thanks. 20 dB under full scale. the specs of your interface will determine what actual level that is. cheers Wiz
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Post by Guitar on Nov 26, 2017 15:35:16 GMT -6
I tend to mix between -12 and -8 on my FabFilter Pro-L limiter's RMS reading. I know that's loud but I like it loud, and I don't currently hire out for mastering. It's a feel thing as much as a loudness thing, and it's in the range of most of the products I listen to on a regular basis. I did have a painful -6 period a few years ago, but I vowed to put that far behind me, and so far mostly have. Those kinds of records just HURT. I have a question. How do mastering engineers decide on loudness across multiple tracks on an album? I recently had to do this and it was only mildly maddening, but also fascinating, I ended up doing it 'by ear'. Same with the master EQ. Coffee and Pumpkin Pie is a WINNING combination... wow... especially with a little whupped cream on top. Sorry for the seasonal commentary. Finally understand the Twin Peaks 'coffe and pie' thing.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 26, 2017 15:50:14 GMT -6
monkeyxx: K&W Cafeteria; gotta be one near you. Coconut pie and coffee. Can't go wrong.
Loudness across multiple tracks: pick the max loudness standard for the record, start leveling against that standard using the running order as main relative reference, pop around randomly also. By ear, ultimately.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 26, 2017 17:04:33 GMT -6
I'm guilty of doing exactly what Popmann said regarding using Superior Drummer at it's preset volume. I didn't know better then, and the older tracks I mixed like that were nasty and difficult to tame. They're barely tolerable now, but I need to move on and hope the content will outweigh the sound quality on a few of my tracks. It took me two years to actually take into my DNA that digital levels weren't analogue. I understood it intellectually, but somehow I ignored it and blasted my tracks sometimes.
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