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Post by mrholmes on Aug 27, 2014 18:48:24 GMT -6
Come on I am hater because I am a realist. Thats unfair…
Here are my arguments.
How many times industry told us that X sounds exactly like the HW and it only fits the bill within a few exceptions.
To be fair I use an UMT 70 with M7 capsule and an 1073 nearly every day. And now comes SL and wants to make me believe…. we can model all variables in this path.
I am by far everything but not a hater. I believed a long time what SL claimed till I used his VCC…. Its funny to claim it sounds exactly like the console xyz…. The best of it all - no hobbyist can proof him wrong because of an absence of an SSL or Neve, U47 etc. To be fair my OTB mixes did sound by far opener as with the Slate VCC ITB. In the end of the day they are ITB mixes.
I am just very skeptical if someone has the opportunity to make millions. Companies tell a lot BS to make sells. And that came by experience with the years, not because I am a hater.
I hope my point is clear and I am no longer a HATER. In the end of the day you use the gear you prefer. If you like it and you think it sounds fantastic … use it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 27, 2014 18:50:24 GMT -6
Unfair? It was a joke...I could care less if it sounds exactly like it, still can be good tools.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919
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Post by ericn on Aug 27, 2014 19:47:29 GMT -6
Before I state my theory / philosophy of why modeling will never work let me state this, I wish it could, I wish my DAW could do it all, I would love to not worry about finding a bunch of Channels of Neve EQ. The idea of never worrying about service for all the Pultec channels I could think of using e ER needing service. Pull a Vintage ELAM by clicking my mouse.
Now here is my take, You can't model what something does right, There is no way mathematically to take a distorted audio signal and remove the distortion and make it life like, you can model the distortion but you can't model a perfect real thing! This wouldn't be a problem if we could capture the real deal, but you can't even do that. Our gear choices are based on 2 factors what out gear gets right and what works for us in a musical way, until we can capture perfection modeling is limited to only being able to capture the Euphonic properties of gear, the part it really isn't getting right, and our ears can tell.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919
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Post by ericn on Aug 27, 2014 19:48:00 GMT -6
Before I state my theory / philosophy of why modeling will never work let me state this, I wish it could, I wish my DAW could do it all, I would love to not worry about finding a bunch of Channels of Neve EQ. The idea of never worrying about service for all the Pultec channels I could think of using e ER needing service. Pull a Vintage ELAM by clicking my mouse.
Now here is my take, You can't model what something does right, There is no way mathematically to take a distorted audio signal and remove the distortion and make it life like, you can model the distortion but you can't model a perfect real thing! This wouldn't be a problem if we could capture the real deal, but you can't even do that. Our gear choices are based on 2 factors what out gear gets right and what works for us in a musical way, until we can capture perfection modeling is limited to only being able to capture the Euphonic properties of gear, the part it really isn't getting right, and our ears can tell.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 27, 2014 20:38:07 GMT -6
Man i agree with Eric! if ITB plugs worked as well as the real deal, i'd be stoked, i often wonder how i'm going to deal with the pita of recall as im building this OTB based studio up. The problem to me is that video game synthetic haze that definitely builds up with multiple instantiations on multiple tracks, someone coined it as "digititus", which is a perfect name for it. Plugs work best when they don't do anything but transparency, the Fabfilters proQ is pretty damn impressive to me, and invisible as far as i can tell, especially in linear phase mode. My prediction is this SS mic modeler will be another been there, done that disappointment, but here's to hoping!
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Post by watchtower on Aug 27, 2014 20:41:33 GMT -6
Doesn't your post imply that, for instance, a vintage ELAM is cleaner/less distorted than a reference mic? Or are you saying something else?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919
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Post by ericn on Aug 27, 2014 20:55:57 GMT -6
Doesn't your post imply that, for instance, a vintage ELAM is cleaner/less distorted than a reference mic? Or are you saying something else? What I saying is that the Elam in some respects is bring something that is right, it maybe something we don't know how to measure, but most who have compared the classics seam to notice that they share a "real-ness" that others don't have! In some ways an SM57 has some degree of real-ness you can't model that it has to be there to begin with, that's the problem, nothing brings us a true recreation, we can't model it!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 27, 2014 22:04:26 GMT -6
eric, no offense, but I found your posts a little confusing. Scientists might offer many clear and concise reasons why they can in fact recreate a sound so well it becomes indistinguishable from the original.
I think it's a case of "are we there yet?. So far, I'm with you and Tony, the more out of the box I get, the better it sounds, but certain things like the UAD EMT140 and the ReLab XL480 are so good, and in some ways better than the original, I don't think the hardware would outperform it in a significant way.
So for me, I see a hybrid system being optimal for now. It is an exciting development though. If I get a truly satisfying U47, C12, ELAM 250, U67, etc,, that sure would be a incredible tool to have.
The question for me will be simple, does it sound better than the mic I have now, and all the hype won't mean a thing once I get to hear it and do a hands on comparison with it.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 27, 2014 23:41:14 GMT -6
eric, no offense, but I found your posts a little confusing. Scientists might offer many clear and concise reasons why they can in fact recreate a sound so well it becomes indistinguishable from the original. I think it's a case of "are we there yet?. So far, I'm with you and Tony, the more out of the box I get, the better it sounds, but certain things like the UAD EMT140 and the ReLab XL480 are so good, and in some ways better than the original, I don't think the hardware would outperform it in a significant way. So for me, I see a hybrid system being optimal for now. It is an exciting development though. If I get a truly satisfying U47, C12, ELAM 250, U67, etc,, that sure would be a incredible tool to have. The question for me will be simple, does it sound better than the mic I have now, and all the hype won't mean a thing once I get to hear it and do a hands on comparison with it. Martin, you must not have ever heard a real plate reverb, there is no way on gods green earth that a UAD emt140 sounds anywhere close to as dimensionally beautiful as a real plate reverb, let alone better, no way bromee. I've never heard the Bricasti, but guys i know and trust say that it's plates don't come close to the real deal either. That said, the UAD emt140 is as good a plate emulation as i've heard.
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 27, 2014 23:52:59 GMT -6
Well the way that I see it, if you can afford to buy the gear that's being modeled then you have no business using the modeled version of it. Now, if you're like me, and look at something like a UAD 140 and think "man that's an amazing sounding plate" that's plenty good enough for me. If an engineer can kick my ass because his reverbs, delays, and hardware compressors are the only factor, then it aint the gear, it's the user.
On topic with the Mic system, this is something that I would have to hear and actually use for a long time before I would ever commit to buy it. This is one area of modeling that is totally brand new, and I would be very very cautious with my money on this. Me being a DIY guy I would just rather build my own emulation of a really good Elam, and find creative ways to use that mic on as many vocalist and instruments as I could. If indeed, the VMS get's traction and is endorsed by people just because, and not because Steven is paying them a ton of cash, then that is a different story. I just don't see how you can recreate the sound of an old U47 with an algorithm…. but, I'd love love love for them to prove me wrong. It'd sure as hell be my next buy.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2014 0:19:01 GMT -6
Well the way that I see it, if you can afford to buy the gear that's being modeled then you have no business using the modeled version of it. Now, if you're like me, and look at something like a UAD 140 and think "man that's an amazing sounding plate" that's plenty good enough for me. If an engineer can kick my ass because his reverbs, delays, and hardware compressors are the only factor, then it aint the gear, it's the user. On topic with the Mic system, this is something that I would have to hear and actually use for a long time before I would ever commit to buy it. This is one area of modeling that is totally brand new, and I would be very very cautious with my money on this. Me being a DIY guy I would just rather build my own emulation of a really good Elam, and find creative ways to use that mic on as many vocalist and instruments as I could. If indeed, the VMS get's traction and is endorsed by people just because, and not because Steven is paying them a ton of cash, then that is a different story. I just don't see how you can recreate the sound of an old U47 with an algorithm…. but, I'd love love love for them to prove me wrong. It'd sure as hell be my next buy. back off topic 8) this ^ is a bit of an over simplification, but IMO if you and your competitor have raw mixes of the same sonic quality, all things being equal, the guy with the real stuff is going to win that battle everytime. The other thing is, recording is the sum of all the small details, the compromise of settling for virtual emulation and "plenty good enough for me" is applied to everything ITB, your system is quite literally a "compromise" system by virtue of it's virtuality, now people are going to throw mics into that mix as well? It is indeed like watching a movie about going to disneyland, vs going to disneyland. Thats cool if it works for someone. More importantly, i was responding to what i consider a way off assertion that the UAD emt 140 is better than a real one, and that is just incredibly far from the case to anyone who's heard both ime.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 28, 2014 4:20:22 GMT -6
Not arguing and maybe I am being naive, but were you joking or do you know for a fact Slate pays people:now talking heads, if so .
Personally, I have felt people speaking in print or on camera about Slate products were being genuine and stating their true opinions ?
Btw i feel as you do about this specific product and have built a c12 and mk-u47, certainly putting my money where my mouth is.
but there are certainly many who embrace slate products and use them contentedly.
i am in general reacting somewhat against plugs and have been buying real gear (burl b2,Warm audio, pres, wa76's, cl7802 and the mikes) .
ironically though, while I prefer the real gear, I still long for one box that does it all ! I also note that plugs like UA,FF, Slate, Kush and Exponential Audio sure sound good and the simplicity of ITB has its appeal.
It will be interesting when the virtual mikes hit the street !
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 28, 2014 7:00:10 GMT -6
I have absolutely no idea if he pays people to get on his advertisements and say good things, but, seems like they wouldn't be doing it for a free plug-in yeah? I pay attention to the guys that talk about products in interviews and such, articles, but if it's on a youtube video for a manufacturer roll out of a new product, I don't care who it is, I take it with a grain of salt and wait for the reviews. There's been wayyy too many times I've bought something because a big name was on their introduction video talking about it, then later to find out they don't even use it. That doesn't apply to just audio, I mean that's global in the sales business.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 28, 2014 7:58:02 GMT -6
Just demo the products and let them speak for themselves...what's so hard about that?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 28, 2014 8:04:13 GMT -6
Just demo the products and let them speak for themselves...what's so hard about that? The fact that they don't exist yet and probably won't for another year or two. Haha.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2014 8:44:01 GMT -6
Just demo the products and let them speak for themselves...what's so hard about that? That's kinda what I was saying. I've got a mic worth say.. $2,200 all in retail and if any single mic emulation in the Slate system equaled it, I'd be impressed and consider getting it. To be able to switch mics virtually for different situations could be amazing, but I'll let my ears do the talking when this finally arrives. Tony, I have used plate reverbs in a couple of top NY studios, but it was a long time ago, so I can't really speak with any authority as to how good the UAD plug truly is in comparison. The UAD EMT 140 does get me so much of what I liked about plates, and then allows me to change plates and tweak the sounds that it becomes better for me in my situation. I definitely feel the difference between at home, mostly in the box productions and being in a real studio, which I miss. I hope I can eventually get to work in studios again regularly, and have the home system supplement that.
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 28, 2014 9:12:50 GMT -6
Just demo the products and let them speak for themselves...what's so hard about that? The fact that they don't exist yet and probably won't for another year or two. Haha. So this vaporware is still vapor? P.T. Barnum would be impressed.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 28, 2014 11:53:08 GMT -6
Oh its more than vapor ware but not released to general public so no good juicy real world it did this great or it sucked balls on this track stories yet !
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Post by btreim on Aug 28, 2014 12:19:32 GMT -6
Well the way that I see it, if you can afford to buy the gear that's being modeled then you have no business using the modeled version of it. Now, if you're like me, and look at something like a UAD 140 and think "man that's an amazing sounding plate" that's plenty good enough for me. If an engineer can kick my ass because his reverbs, delays, and hardware compressors are the only factor, then it aint the gear, it's the user. On topic with the Mic system, this is something that I would have to hear and actually use for a long time before I would ever commit to buy it. This is one area of modeling that is totally brand new, and I would be very very cautious with my money on this. Me being a DIY guy I would just rather build my own emulation of a really good Elam, and find creative ways to use that mic on as many vocalist and instruments as I could. If indeed, the VMS get's traction and is endorsed by people just because, and not because Steven is paying them a ton of cash, then that is a different story. I just don't see how you can recreate the sound of an old U47 with an algorithm…. but, I'd love love love for them to prove me wrong. It'd sure as hell be my next buy. back off topic 8) this ^ is a bit of an over simplification, but IMO if you and your competitor have raw mixes of the same sonic quality, all things being equal, the guy with the real stuff is going to win that battle everytime. The other thing is, recording is the sum of all the small details, the compromise of settling for virtual emulation and "plenty good enough for me" is applied to everything ITB, your system is quite literally a "compromise" system by virtue of it's virtuality, now people are going to throw mics into that mix as well? It is indeed like watching a movie about going to disneyland, vs going to disneyland. Thats cool if it works for someone. More importantly, i was responding to what i consider a way off assertion that the UAD emt 140 is better than a real one, and that is just incredibly far from the case to anyone who's heard both ime.Back off topic... I don't think there's a sound I love more than pushing up the return fader on a plate verb. So so sweet!
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2014 12:41:00 GMT -6
Oh its more than vapor ware but not released to general public so no good juicy real world it did this great or it sucked balls on this track stories yet ! Matt, lmao, i didn't know you can "like" your own posts! aww man, i'm gonna have to go back through a couple thousand of my own now 8)
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 28, 2014 12:51:18 GMT -6
I love real plates too but its worth mentioning again that they were all over the map and I was not impressed when I used the ones UAD modeled at the Sausalito Plant.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 28, 2014 13:39:13 GMT -6
I can safely say that I will never own a real plate reverb. I honestly really love the UAD verbs.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2014 14:07:27 GMT -6
That's interesting Bob. I guess they figured they're all the same? I've been very happy to use the EMT-140 on acoustics as my go to sound, but the 5 or 10% difference we're missing must keep adding up in our in the box mixes. I know I'll end up pushing faders again at some point, but I'm never giving up my DAW automation, even though I use it sparingly.
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Post by wiz on Aug 28, 2014 15:29:05 GMT -6
How much noise do real plates physically generate, outside the container they are in?
Anyone built one?
How Hard?
Anyone own a real, good sounding plate reverb that we could put up against a dry test track (I could provide, say an acoustic guitar and vocal) and then put it up against UAD.
a derail of a derail for a sec...
Also , it would be great to inhabit a forum, that leaves out the conspiracy theories about gear and gear manufacturers.
Say if you own it, say if you use it, say if you have a financial interest in something, don't have multiple identities, be honest and thoughtful and respectful.
If you are making a joke, put one of these at the end of the joke... 8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2014 15:42:30 GMT -6
As a guitarist, when I used a pedal like a wah wah, fuzz box, etc, I was altering the natural sound of my instrument, but wait, it wasn't natural, it's electric, so I've really just further altered an altered sound.
Natural reverb comes from the reflections in a space, and a plate is by definition, unnatural. So, the idea of "real" plates is already a bit twisted, even if the process of running sound into a 12 or 21 foot plate might have a different, and to most ears "better" sound, I would like to see a little less purist pushback on gear forums. After all, the whole damn recording process is fake, miraculous, fun, an art form, life giving, but ultimately, still fake.
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