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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 14, 2017 12:55:42 GMT -6
Anybody used these? I'm blown away that no one in Music City USA has any snakes besides freaking Vintage King...My GC Pro guy has a Live Wire Snake he'd sell me...but they look bad...Any reviews?
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 14, 2017 12:57:31 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Nov 14, 2017 12:58:06 GMT -6
As long as they aren't being plugged a lot they should be fine.
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Post by jeromemason on Nov 14, 2017 13:07:30 GMT -6
I'll just say this, the whole cables make a difference thing is real, at least in my experience. I did real test's and used phase canceling and such and low quality cables like Hosa against Mogami, you could clearly hear all this high end and lowend that the cheap cables were not transmitting down the line. I got completely grilled on GS by people that had to be biased because of how they'd said in the past you could use freaking coat hangers instead of high quality cables. That thread is still over there, I don't know if the files are still on there or not, but if they are you can clearly hear the problems. I just shut up and let them all take swords to each other, but the proof was in the pudding in the audio files. I told them "who knows" so I could get out of it. It's almost like discussing politics when the cable debate comes up. Crazy.
I think as long as you're not using Hosa, and if you can look at the specs of the cable and compare against Mogami, if it's somewhere close to their specs then go for it. But, like mentioned above, just don't be expecting them to handle being moved around a lot.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 14, 2017 13:18:10 GMT -6
Livewire for the most part is the same as HOSA, that said they pass signal they wear like crap if you are plugging unplugging. So if you need it now yeah they work, but for nexpensive D sub stuff I have had good luck with planet waves Modular stuff,dirt cheap at zzounds!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 14, 2017 13:21:00 GMT -6
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Post by ragan on Nov 14, 2017 13:22:52 GMT -6
I use them all the time. Ask the Redco guys about how many sources of copper wire there are for the bazillion cable companies.
My balanced cables always null for me, Hosa, LiveWire, Mogami, Canare, whatever the Redco house brand is, etc. But that’s just a DAW null test. I understand there are some limitations of that (that are maybe so far down out of the audible range that they can’t matter?).
I’m not claiming to be an authority or trying to convince anyone else. But for me, the null tests I’ve done and the blind ABs I’ve done (can’t hear a damn thing different blind, fail every time) add up to me not caring about balanced cable sonics. I do care about connector quality and all the demonstrably real stuff like shielding and whatnot.
I have several LiveWire cables and Rapco snake (I think LiveWire/Rapco/Horizon is all the same thing?) and it all works the same as all my other cabling.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 14, 2017 13:35:51 GMT -6
So what you guys are saying is that yes they don't make a difference but they do.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 14, 2017 13:36:26 GMT -6
Wonder if the vintage king brand is any better? Probably looking at a $40 difference...
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Post by ragan on Nov 14, 2017 13:38:30 GMT -6
Wonder if the vintage king brand is any better? Probably looking at a $40 difference... Better at...?
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 14, 2017 13:58:02 GMT -6
Transmitting audio...endurance. But you're saying you hear no difference at all, huh?
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Post by svart on Nov 14, 2017 14:20:02 GMT -6
There are some hard truths with cables.
Null tests are crapshoots. There are too many differences in connectors and conductors to say one cable is "better" than another, because it might be something as trivial as some tarnish on the connector's pins or some flux/rosin bridging the pins that makes greater differences than the cable's conductors. Slight mismatches in common mode (differential) transmission or reception can cause huge changes in linearity because most opamp-based receivers are not good at dealing with mismatches in impedance balancing.
Every cable will be different, even in the same models. It's just the magnitude of the difference that will change.
Connectors tend to make the biggest difference when the cable's conductor characteristics are matched.
A cable that has more parasitic characteristics, such as conductor-to-shield capacitance, will operate exactly the same as a lower capacitance cable if the length is adjusted accordingly. If you take a shorter Hosa cable with high capacitance and compare a longer Mogami cable with less capacitance, they will likely show the same frequency characteristics. Buy the shortest cables you can deal with and you can likely save some money and not lose performance.
Almost all audio cables have bandwidths of many hundreds of KHz until they're a few hundred feet long.
Coathangers can be used as audio conductors for extremely low impedances such as speakers, because the source/load impedances swamp every aspect of a coathanger's electrical characteristics except for power transmission, which is because steel is not a good conductor of power.
I'd say rock those cables if you need to save money, you probably won't hear any functional difference at all.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 14, 2017 14:36:28 GMT -6
I spend more because I just saw to many problems with HOSA and the the like, the connectors were always crappy! You
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 14:43:53 GMT -6
^^^ narcolepsy?
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Post by ragan on Nov 14, 2017 14:44:58 GMT -6
There are some hard truths with cables. Null tests are crapshoots. There are too many differences in connectors and conductors to say one cable is "better" than another, because it might be something as trivial as some tarnish on the connector's pins or some flux/rosin bridging the pins that makes greater differences than the cable's conductors. Slight mismatches in common mode (differential) transmission or reception can cause huge changes in linearity because most opamp-based receivers are not good at dealing with mismatches in impedance balancing. Every cable will be different, even in the same models. It's just the magnitude of the difference that will change. Connectors tend to make the biggest difference when the cable's conductor characteristics are matched. A cable that has more parasitic characteristics, such as conductor-to-shield capacitance, will operate exactly the same as a lower capacitance cable if the length is adjusted accordingly. If you take a shorter Hosa cable with high capacitance and compare a longer Mogami cable with less capacitance, they will likely show the same frequency characteristics. Buy the shortest cables you can deal with and you can likely save some money and not lose performance. Almost all audio cables have bandwidths of many hundreds of KHz until they're a few hundred feet long. Coathangers can be used as audio conductors for extremely low impedances such as speakers, because the source/load impedances swamp every aspect of a coathanger's electrical characteristics except for power transmission, which is because steel is not a good conductor of power. I'd say rock those cables if you need to save money, you probably won't hear any functional difference at all. I’m going to school to become an EE so I’m throwing my lot squarely in with the scientists. Granted, I don’t get to do anything with circuits at all until I get through 2ish years of ALL MATH AND PHYSICS ALL THE TIME but someday I hope to be able to wield the kind of knowledge svart does. But yeah, Johnkenn, when I go blind, I never hear a difference in balanced cables. Doesn’t mean you or someone else wouldn’t though.
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Post by porkyman on Nov 14, 2017 14:59:13 GMT -6
Live wire have lifetime warranties. If one breaks you just walk right into to guitar center and replace it. I have a GC near me so it's pretty much a no brainer. If you don't have access to GC I'd say get something that'll last longer.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 14, 2017 15:07:36 GMT -6
^^^ narcolepsy? I wish ! Haven't slept since Saturday night!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 15:24:21 GMT -6
any difference between xlr & trs?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 14, 2017 15:39:00 GMT -6
any difference between xlr & trs? Price XLR is always more! Quality XLR is always a crap shoot because there isn't an actual standard for pin size! I know guys who Switched XLR's on a bunch of gear just because they know Switchcraft to Switchcraft & Neutrik to Neutrik will work, others custom make the snake to mate !
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Post by drbill on Nov 14, 2017 16:10:59 GMT -6
I'm not even going to go into the "sonics" debate. It's been discussed ad infinitum for years...
There are so many reasons to choose a quality cable beyond sonics :
- ease of termination - flexability - size - peace of mind - length of service - rf rejection - capacitance - studio reputation and perception - reliability - etc.
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Post by jeromemason on Nov 14, 2017 20:36:37 GMT -6
In my test's a long time ago my runs were not longer than 6' and there were audible high and low end information loss with the low quality cable. I could hear it, did some tests and verified what I was hearing was most surely real. So...
If I were using these snakes for audio that's going to be used in your recordings whether tracking or line level mixing, quality cable makes an audible difference, and once that's printed, there is no turning back, it's not something you can fix because it does more than just choke off high and low information, it also screws with the phase too. So, unless you're just in a tight pinch and can't find anyone to hook you up with some snakes then I would do anything I could to hold out for when you can afford the Mogami snakes. Hell, it's not that expensive when making your own. Just get the DB25 subs that use the crimp pin and not the solder and it's really not that hard. Takes some time, but how much you save is more than worth that time. If I were buying them already made I'd go with Proaudiola.com I bought some from them a long time ago and was extremely impressed.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 14, 2017 23:46:46 GMT -6
any difference between xlr & trs? XLRs make the ground connection before the signal connections. They also don't momentarily make contact between signal connections and ground when making a connection, which can cause problems in some cases..
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Post by rowmat on Nov 15, 2017 0:37:19 GMT -6
I build my own cables with Neutrik XLR's and either Canare, Mogami or Gepco cable.
I have pulled many pre-manufactured cables apart and mostly have been unimpressed with the termination quality.
If I do it myself I know it's done right.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 15, 2017 1:39:48 GMT -6
I build my own cables with Neutrik XLR's and either Canare, Mogami or Gepco cable. I have pulled many pre-manufactured cables apart and mostly have been unimpressed with the termination quality. If I do it myself I know it's done right. And if it's not who to blame! I build 90% of my own cabling, but I have to say for the stupid low price of the planet waves Dsub to Dsub, I have found the 20+ I have bought to be as good as the Mogami's I have built. What even made them better was GC stocked them for a while so I would go in buy a few come back a day later and with their price match policy I ended up getting them for 10% less than Zzounds! Hard to beat a decent Dsub to Dsub for $16!
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Post by rowmat on Nov 15, 2017 1:45:32 GMT -6
I build my own cables with Neutrik XLR's and either Canare, Mogami or Gepco cable. I have pulled many pre-manufactured cables apart and mostly have been unimpressed with the termination quality. If I do it myself I know it's done right. And if it's not who to blame! I build 90% of my own cabling, but I have to say for the stupid low price of the planet waves Dsub to Dsub, I have found the 20+ I have bought to be as good as the Mogami's I have built. What even made them better was GC stocked them for a while so I would go in buy a few come back a day later and with their price match policy I ended up getting them for 10% less than Zzounds! Hard to beat a decent Dsub to Dsub for $16! I don't have any Dsub to Dsub. Mine are either XLR to Dsub or XLR to EDAC/ELCO. Mouser for the Neutrik XLR's and Redco for the EDAC's. The worst cabling job I've ever seen in my life was a 24/4 way snake with stagebox that my studio partner bought new off eBay. It was HORRENDOUS!!!
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