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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 13, 2018 19:23:31 GMT -6
Give us a full report when you're ready Chad.
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 14, 2018 1:10:54 GMT -6
Yeah, looking forward to your report, Chad.
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Post by wiz on Apr 14, 2018 1:39:54 GMT -6
ericnYou got yours yet? Cheers Wiz
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Post by guitfiddler on Apr 14, 2018 2:05:15 GMT -6
Give us a full report when you're ready Chad. Ditto!
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,985
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Post by ericn on Apr 15, 2018 16:30:01 GMT -6
ericnYou got yours yet? Cheers Wiz My standard for the Neve sound is the 8ch of Dan Alexander I have, the pre of the Elite 73 falls in same camp I hear the tone but it’s a tad bit darker, where as the DA is huge sounding the Heritage is just big. When pushed the Heritage seams to run out of gas if pushed hard for a while, I need to try it with a real PSU!! The EQ is why I bought it, and it’s a very musical EQ, if you want it to sound like a real Neve 1073, padding the mic in so you can use the transformer will get you there, pads are easy to wire into a patch bay. Pad the line level into the Dan Alexander into the line input and huge gobs of a Neve Warming oven. I really want to hear Stan’s take on this and the Warm before I say you can’t beat it for the price, but the fact that you can get here for the price is pretty damn impressive. Last week was talking audio with an old friend and we were talking old classic consoles, well if I was sitting in front of an 80 series Neve that had not had a recent full on referb I would probably hear more variation between modules than I do the Dan Alexander’s and the Heritage. If a simple PSU upgrade would solve the running out of gas ( my wife commented the cable box has a beefier PSU the kid says the wallwart for his razor is bigger, hell if it was any smaller and white I would confuse it with a USB charger) and if The DA’s were not here I probably wouldn’t hear it! It’s boxed up to send to Vincent so we can hear it with his Voice and Flea 49, I just have to walk it the 2 blocks to fedex. So I like it a lot, could live with a side car full of these and be happy But I want to hear the Warm and really want to Hear what Josh at Stam has for us, because if I can be in love with it at close to this price I’ll be there, but I am not looking to replace the rack of Dan Alexander that old Iron is very special. Last thought you don’t need 8ch plus of Neve to make a great recording, but Damn it, it sure helps ! A rack of these a rack full of CAPI and a couple of clean and I’ll be happy. So find me the work to pay for it!
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Post by Guitar on Apr 15, 2018 16:35:41 GMT -6
Nice review, ericn ! Sounds like you're having a lot of fun.
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Post by ragan on Apr 15, 2018 17:08:10 GMT -6
ericn You got yours yet? Cheers Wiz My standard for the Neve sound is the 8ch of Dan Alexander I have, the pre of the Elite 73 falls in same camp I hear the tone but it’s a tad bit darker, where as the DA is huge sounding the Heritage is just big. When pushed the Heritage seams to run out of gas if pushed hard for a while, I need to try it with a real PSU!! The EQ is why I bought it, and it’s a very musical EQ, if you want it to sound like a real Neve 1073, padding the mic in so you can use the transformer will get you there, pads are easy to wire into a patch bay. Pad the line level into the Dan Alexander into the line input and huge gobs of a Neve Warming oven. I really want to hear Stan’s take on this and the Warm before I say you can’t beat it for the price, but the fact that you can get here for the price is pretty damn impressive. Last week was talking audio with an old friend and we were talking old classic consoles, well if I was sitting in front of an 80 series Neve that had not had a recent full on referb I would probably hear more variation between modules than I do the Dan Alexander’s and the Heritage. If a simple PSU upgrade would solve the running out of gas ( my wife commented the cable box has a beefier PSU the kid says the wallwart for his razor is bigger, hell if it was any smaller and white I would confuse it with a USB charger) and if The DA’s were not here I probably wouldn’t hear it! It’s boxed up to send to Vincent so we can hear it with his Voice and Flea 49, I just have to walk it the 2 blocks to fedex. So I like it a lot, could live with a side car full of these and be happy But I want to hear the Warm and really want to Hear what Josh at Stam has for us, because if I can be in love with it at close to this price I’ll be there, but I am not looking to replace the rack of Dan Alexander that old Iron is very special. Last thought you don’t need 8ch plus of Neve to make a great recording, but Damn it, it sure helps ! A rack of these a rack full of CAPI and a couple of clean and I’ll be happy. So find me the work to pay for it! Just curious. What makes you so certain the attributes you're not liking are being caused by the PSU? Are we to think the engineers at Heritage don't know how to properly power a piece of gear? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be snide. There's just so much mythology about this stuff out there, I'm wondering if there are concrete reasons that you think the way the power is being implemented is problematic on this unit.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 15, 2018 17:32:57 GMT -6
What does running out of gas mean?
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 15, 2018 18:07:06 GMT -6
power sag ?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,985
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Post by ericn on Apr 16, 2018 8:26:34 GMT -6
My standard for the Neve sound is the 8ch of Dan Alexander I have, the pre of the Elite 73 falls in same camp I hear the tone but it’s a tad bit darker, where as the DA is huge sounding the Heritage is just big. When pushed the Heritage seams to run out of gas if pushed hard for a while, I need to try it with a real PSU!! The EQ is why I bought it, and it’s a very musical EQ, if you want it to sound like a real Neve 1073, padding the mic in so you can use the transformer will get you there, pads are easy to wire into a patch bay. Pad the line level into the Dan Alexander into the line input and huge gobs of a Neve Warming oven. I really want to hear Stan’s take on this and the Warm before I say you can’t beat it for the price, but the fact that you can get here for the price is pretty damn impressive. Last week was talking audio with an old friend and we were talking old classic consoles, well if I was sitting in front of an 80 series Neve that had not had a recent full on referb I would probably hear more variation between modules than I do the Dan Alexander’s and the Heritage. If a simple PSU upgrade would solve the running out of gas ( my wife commented the cable box has a beefier PSU the kid says the wallwart for his razor is bigger, hell if it was any smaller and white I would confuse it with a USB charger) and if The DA’s were not here I probably wouldn’t hear it! It’s boxed up to send to Vincent so we can hear it with his Voice and Flea 49, I just have to walk it the 2 blocks to fedex. So I like it a lot, could live with a side car full of these and be happy But I want to hear the Warm and really want to Hear what Josh at Stam has for us, because if I can be in love with it at close to this price I’ll be there, but I am not looking to replace the rack of Dan Alexander that old Iron is very special. Last thought you don’t need 8ch plus of Neve to make a great recording, but Damn it, it sure helps ! A rack of these a rack full of CAPI and a couple of clean and I’ll be happy. So find me the work to pay for it! Just curious. What makes you so certain the attributes you're not liking are being caused by the PSU? Are we to think the engineers at Heritage don't know how to properly power a piece of gear? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be snide. There's just so much mythology about this stuff out there, I'm wondering if there are concrete reasons that you think the way the power is being implemented is problematic on this unit. Good question, and by no means snide. If you have ever run a console with an undersized powe supply you will know what I’m talking about, all of a sudden it sounds compressed, fuzzy opaque and goes from Neve big to small. Now to get hear you have to push it hard for a while, and backing off you can correct this, but sitting next to the Dan Alexander gain matched out of a mic 3 way splitter both getting the transformer to make it fair the Dan Alexander just kept sailing. I honestly wouldn’t care or notice if the Dan Alexander next to it but it is. I also noticed the same thing with one of the Dan Alexander’s that came with a Non original PSU that had 1/2 the current rating of the other 3 2ch units switching the supply out and it felt like a different unit, switched the smaller supply to another Dan and the sound was back! I waited to post this till now because I put in a request to the Ad Agency to see if they would let me post files but they said sure, that is sure if you don’t want to be paid and never work for us again😎! Well I like working with this client so sorry guys 😪 I am going to head over to Electronics Supply Company and see if they have a 48v with at least 1 amp of current before I ship to Vincent to let him weigh in on it !
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Post by Guitar on Apr 16, 2018 8:30:46 GMT -6
It kind of sucks they're using a little wall wart. Not the end of the world, you can get a better one. But that's one point towards Warm for me, comparing these two.
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Post by ragan on Apr 16, 2018 8:52:28 GMT -6
Just curious. What makes you so certain the attributes you're not liking are being caused by the PSU? Are we to think the engineers at Heritage don't know how to properly power a piece of gear? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be snide. There's just so much mythology about this stuff out there, I'm wondering if there are concrete reasons that you think the way the power is being implemented is problematic on this unit. Good question, and by no means snide. If you have ever run a console with an undersized powe supply you will know what I’m talking about, all of a sudden it sounds compressed, fuzzy opaque and goes from Neve big to small. Now to get hear you have to push it hard for a while, and backing off you can correct this, but sitting next to the Dan Alexander gain matched out of a mic 3 way splitter both getting the transformer to make it fair the Dan Alexander just kept sailing. I honestly wouldn’t care or notice if the Dan Alexander next to it but it is. I also noticed the same thing with one of the Dan Alexander’s that came with a Non original PSU that had 1/2 the current rating of the other 3 2ch units switching the supply out and it felt like a different unit, switched the smaller supply to another Dan and the sound was back! I waited to post this till now because I put in a request to the Ad Agency to see if they would let me post files but they said sure, that is sure if you don’t want to be paid and never work for us again😎! Well I like working with this client so sorry guys 😪 I am going to head over to Electronics Supply Company and see if they have a 48v with at least 1 amp of current before I ship to Vincent to let him weigh in on it ! I see. Well that is interesting and you could happen to be right that it has to do with the PSU. But it could very well be that the other pres just sound better and have more headroom in general. I find it hard to believe that the Heritage guys would put this thing to market with a power system that sells it so short. The stuff you’re not digging about the Heritage unit could be coming from any number of factors. Seems pretty impossible to definitively chalk it up to the PSU. I’m not an expert though. Just thinking out loud.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,985
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Post by ericn on Apr 16, 2018 9:18:38 GMT -6
Good question, and by no means snide. If you have ever run a console with an undersized powe supply you will know what I’m talking about, all of a sudden it sounds compressed, fuzzy opaque and goes from Neve big to small. Now to get hear you have to push it hard for a while, and backing off you can correct this, but sitting next to the Dan Alexander gain matched out of a mic 3 way splitter both getting the transformer to make it fair the Dan Alexander just kept sailing. I honestly wouldn’t care or notice if the Dan Alexander next to it but it is. I also noticed the same thing with one of the Dan Alexander’s that came with a Non original PSU that had 1/2 the current rating of the other 3 2ch units switching the supply out and it felt like a different unit, switched the smaller supply to another Dan and the sound was back! I waited to post this till now because I put in a request to the Ad Agency to see if they would let me post files but they said sure, that is sure if you don’t want to be paid and never work for us again😎! Well I like working with this client so sorry guys 😪 I am going to head over to Electronics Supply Company and see if they have a 48v with at least 1 amp of current before I ship to Vincent to let him weigh in on it ! I see. Well that is interesting and you could happen to be right that it has to do with the PSU. But it could very well be that the other pres just sound better and have more headroom in general. I find it hard to believe that the Heritage guys would put this thing to market with a power system that sells it so short. The stuff you’re not digging about the Heritage unit could be coming from any number of factors. Seems pretty impossible to definitively chalk it up to the PSU. I’m not an expert though. Just thinking out loud. Well look I’ll say it again everything is built to a price point, and this baby switcher is definitely where they cut corners, it’s not a huge deal just noticeable next to my reference and like I said if I back off not noticeable, but yeah I noticed and have heard the symptoms in other gear and a PSU upgrade solved it ! While not a fan of Switching PSU I admit they can work, just you have to pay attention to implementation and filtering. I’m sure this little thing not only helps with the price but also meets all the rating agencies standards and that’s a big deal! I’m also pretty sure 48V UL supplies are not as easy to find as 24V or 15+- supplies !
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 16, 2018 10:34:54 GMT -6
It’s an interesting point though as the head heritage guy in those fb videos does pretty well say they were looking for where they could cut costs but maintain sonic quality? As you know, this was something Warm was criticized for in past and ever since, always shielded on board solenoids psu.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,985
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Post by ericn on Apr 16, 2018 13:46:36 GMT -6
Here is a photo of the guts and PSU, input is labeled Carnhill output looks to be a Carnhill but can’t te for sure. imgur.com/gallery/eWp80
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Post by cdkelly on Apr 16, 2018 16:03:05 GMT -6
Here is a photo of the guts and PSU, input is labeled Carnhill output looks to be a Carnhill but can’t te for sure. imgur.com/gallery/eWp80I do know from the guys that its a Carnhill input and output, yep. I think they know they can't skimp there. Interesting on the PSU. I wondered about the little line lump supply but so far I haven't noticed any performance issues. I'll check that out though. Did you say you had to run it hard for a long time to get that effect, like with a hot input signal? I can test that out when time permits the next time I have a long session... One point I'd make though, since someone mentioned this nudges them toward the WA version, is that just because a PSU is internalized and linear does not mean its actually any nicer. From what I can tell from photos, the WA-73 supplies (post the small corner-mounted toroid transformer) are extremely spartan... looks like just 2 generic caps and a regulator on a PCB card no larger than a matchbook. I honestly couldn't tell you which company's PSU outperforms the other; but just to be cautious about the idea that internal vs external or linear vs switching gives a clear indicator... it's a bit more nuanced than that, of course, as I'm sure most of us know... It's something I'd actually be interested to test or compare.
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Post by cdkelly on Apr 16, 2018 16:10:48 GMT -6
Give us a full report when you're ready Chad. Martin and Mark, so far loving it. I'm tracking kick drums with it and I was off to a rough start mostly due to experimenting with mic positions and adding some internal dampening to the kick until I got a sound as stable, unsaturated, and tonally balanced as I'd like it to be, and also getting the kick isolated well enough with a little blanket/box put around it and then some other rigging to keep the kick drum from migrating (happens with fast double bass). Now that that's out of the way, I'm getting nice results. I am tracking a 22 inch bass drum with about 1/4 of the Auralex kick drum insert in it, and using a Heil PR48 which is my favorite kick mic, just barely outside the hole of the resonant head. That goes into the Heritage HA73 Elite with just a touch of EQ for sweetening. I'm using a bit of a lower preamp gain and about 50% on on the output trim just to be sure I get a more open and less saturated sound. Clarity on the way in is important to me since (while I do capture a trigger impulse) I often prefer the microphone tracks for later drum sample augmentation over triggers since triggers are less acoustically isolated from the drum hardware and I tend to get a better picture of the truth from microphone signals, as far as that's concerned. So far, so good. I'll be tracking bass guitar through the DI of it later down the line, and maybe using it as a mic pre on a bass guitar cab as well.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 16, 2018 16:14:38 GMT -6
I thought consensus was for hi fi that linear psu Is better ?
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Post by Guitar on Apr 16, 2018 16:18:22 GMT -6
Oh boy here we go, haha.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Apr 16, 2018 16:27:59 GMT -6
Here is a photo of the guts and PSU, input is labeled Carnhill output looks to be a Carnhill but can’t te for sure. imgur.com/gallery/eWp80I do know from the guys that its a Carnhill input and output, yep. I think they know they can't skimp there. Interesting on the PSU. I wondered about the little line lump supply but so far I haven't noticed any performance issues. I'll check that out though. Did you say you had to run it hard for a long time to get that effect, like with a hot input signal? I can test that out when time permits the next time I have a long session... One point I'd make though, since someone mentioned this nudges them toward the WA version, is that just because a PSU is internalized and linear does not mean its actually any nicer. From what I can tell from photos, the WA-73 supplies (post the small corner-mounted toroid transformer) are extremely spartan... looks like just 2 generic caps and a regulator on a PCB card no larger than a matchbook. I honestly couldn't tell you which company's PSU outperforms the other; but just to be cautious about the idea that internal vs external or linear vs switching gives a clear indicator... it's a bit more nuanced than that, of course, as I'm sure most of us know... It's something I'd actually be interested to test or compare. Yep only when pushed for a while, like I said though if the Dan Alexander next to it I noticed it, if I didn’t have the DA probably wouldn’t have noticed or cared I would have just gain matched. The 2 techs I talked to thought 25w was a little under powered for a 1073. Finding it hard to find a nice 48v PSU short of PowerOne or Accopian!
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Post by wiz on Apr 16, 2018 16:55:31 GMT -6
I do know from the guys that its a Carnhill input and output, yep. I think they know they can't skimp there. Interesting on the PSU. I wondered about the little line lump supply but so far I haven't noticed any performance issues. I'll check that out though. Did you say you had to run it hard for a long time to get that effect, like with a hot input signal? I can test that out when time permits the next time I have a long session... One point I'd make though, since someone mentioned this nudges them toward the WA version, is that just because a PSU is internalized and linear does not mean its actually any nicer. From what I can tell from photos, the WA-73 supplies (post the small corner-mounted toroid transformer) are extremely spartan... looks like just 2 generic caps and a regulator on a PCB card no larger than a matchbook. I honestly couldn't tell you which company's PSU outperforms the other; but just to be cautious about the idea that internal vs external or linear vs switching gives a clear indicator... it's a bit more nuanced than that, of course, as I'm sure most of us know... It's something I'd actually be interested to test or compare. Yep only when pushed for a while, like I said though if the Dan Alexander next to it I noticed it, if I didn’t have the DA probably wouldn’t have noticed or cared I would have just gain matched. The 2 techs I talked to thought 25w was a little under powered for a 1073. Finding it hard to find a nice 48v PSU short of PowerOne or Accopian! JLM Power Supply
that any help to you? Cheers Wiz
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ericn
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Posts: 14,985
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Post by ericn on Apr 16, 2018 17:10:08 GMT -6
Yep only when pushed for a while, like I said though if the Dan Alexander next to it I noticed it, if I didn’t have the DA probably wouldn’t have noticed or cared I would have just gain matched. The 2 techs I talked to thought 25w was a little under powered for a 1073. Finding it hard to find a nice 48v PSU short of PowerOne or Accopian! JLM Power Supply
that any help to you? Cheers Wiz Thanks Peter Non of his 48v offer any more current than the baby switcher line lump.
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Post by wiz on Apr 16, 2018 17:26:08 GMT -6
Thanks Peter Non of his 48v offer any more current than the baby switcher line lump. 40Watts though and it will run quite a few of his modules.. how much current does the heritage draw? Wiz
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Post by cdkelly on Apr 17, 2018 0:40:48 GMT -6
I thought consensus was for hi fi that linear psu Is better ? I wouldn't say that... though people said that quite a bit in the early years of those new supplies back when switching supplies were mostly seen on computer case PSU's and other I.T. gear and therefore associated with being 'cheap'. if folks say that now it would only be for the same reason that people might say that tube gear or tape machines were the gold standard, just because they have become 'entrenched' technologies that any new technology would be held against... but otherwise not really true. There are certainly some great sounding pieces of gear with switched-mode PSU's, like all Burl DACs and ADCs, and many pieces of Dangerous Music gear, and the StudioLive console I'm monitoring through at the moment and (I'll venture to guess) the monitors I have, etc. As an electronics tech, I noticed an interesting thing with many switched-mode transformers is that there was a center tap which terminated to ground on those transformers and sometimes contaminated the chassis/ground plane with a very low measurable voltage... I've never seen this cause an audio issue but is something I did notice on some unrelated equipment I was measuring well over ten years ago. Of course the obvious advantages to them is that they produce less heat, take up less space, weigh less, and of course they don't have the dreaded 60 cycle hum (or 50hz) that people find so aggravating with traditional supplies... that being said, I guess in theory they do produce a frequency that has just been shifted up above the audible range but is still present.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 17, 2018 2:01:54 GMT -6
Yes, that is consistent with what I have read: yet opinions vary. Interesting, dilemma in the clone wars:) Follow the traditional build, part for part, or innovate:again opinions vary
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