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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 14, 2017 17:41:43 GMT -6
Need some opinion from those who know more about solid state be tube based preamps for recording and using for processing .... I am stuck between two preamps Locomotive Audio 286a and RTZ 9672 .
Neither have line level operation built in so step down cables is a must imo to use for processing..
Idk I haven’t heard the 286a and it’s about $4/500 more than the RTZ and I don’t have much experience with tube based pres. Would the 286a be awesome for HipHop Rap POP Vocals? Also for coloring synth groups drum groups etc? I figured the 286a could provide more tonal options than the RTZ as far as line level based processing goes ( haven’t heard either in person ) ( Nashville shop sells both, may take a drive now that I’m whipping again ) I don’t have much experience with tube based products as well
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 14, 2017 20:17:37 GMT -6
Need some opinion from those who know more about solid state be tube based preamps for recording and using for processing .... I am stuck between two preamps Locomotive Audio 286a and RTZ 9672 . Neither have line level operation built in so step down cables is a must imo to use for processing.. Idk I haven’t heard the 286a and it’s about $4/500 more than the RTZ and I don’t have much experience with tube based pres. Would the 286a be awesome for HipHop Rap POP Vocals? Also for coloring synth groups drum groups etc? I figured the 286a could provide more tonal options than the RTZ as far as line level based processing goes ( haven’t heard either in person ) ( Nashville shop sells both, may take a drive now that I’m whipping again ) I don’t have much experience with tube based products as well Pepper moved to Vegas... You know my opinion. I haven't used either though. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 14, 2017 23:45:06 GMT -6
jcoutu1 Dam are you serious... that shop moved to Vegas ... well that just fukd my plans to hear the units.. Can you elaborate more as to what you mean by your opinion? Or is that what you saying, your opinion is that the 286a would be more versatile for recording and processing? I know you love the locomotive and weight tank gear! Plans Are: budget in mind $2500 I was going to go with the RTZ pre and audio scape GSSL both 2 channel units, ($2550 together, the 286 a is $24/2500 ). I can’t afford API 2500 for bus comp/ drum comp and Serpent doesn’t make a rack sb4001. The best lunchbox I saw was Wes audio Super Carrier 2 11 space $699 so that’s $1700 for box n sb... a 3 space box is $350 so $1350 ( sb4001 on sale right now for $999 ) Also my wa76 needs repair. I’m past Warm’s warranty but have 2 year Sam Ash extended warranty. So if they can replace the unit with a new one I would try to resell the new Warm and put that $ plus yamHS8 $ towards the weight tank.. I def want a weight tank and I would be afraid the 286a and weight tank would be too much but I could be way off not having used the units..
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 15, 2017 0:10:50 GMT -6
jcoutu1 Dam are you serious... that shop moved to Vegas ... well that just fukd my plans to hear the units.. Can you elaborate more as to what you mean by your opinion? Or is that what you saying, your opinion is that the 286a would be more versatile for recording and processing? I know you love the locomotive and weight tank gear! Plans Are: budget in mind $2500 I was going to go with the RTZ pre and audio scape GSSL both 2 channel units, ($2550 together, the 286 a is $24/2500 ). I can’t afford API 2500 for bus comp/ drum comp and Serpent doesn’t make a rack sb4001. The best lunchbox I saw was Wes audio Super Carrier 2 11 space $699 so that’s $1700 for box n sb... a 3 space box is $350 so $1350 ( sb4001 on sale right now for $999 ) Also my wa76 needs repair. I’m past Warm’s warranty but have 2 year Sam Ash extended warranty. So if they can replace the unit with a new one I would try to resell the new Warm and put that $ plus yamHS8 $ towards the weight tank.. I def want a weight tank and I would be afraid the 286a and weight tank would be too much but I could be way off not having used the units.. I like what Eric is doing with Locomotive and Weight Tank, so his gear gets my vote. For the most part, I think most of this shit doesn't really matter. You can make a great recording with the Locomotive, with the RTZ, or with a Warm preamp. I like the craftsmanship that Eric puts into his gear. I appreciate the attention to detail. I think the cases with the faceplate that flips open is rad. I like how they're hand wired. I don't really know anything about the RTZ, other than Randy liking them. I think that once you hit a certain level of quality, the minutia of the tone doesn't matter much, so I try to buy from people that I think are doing cool stuff (as much as I can at least). |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 15, 2017 1:24:18 GMT -6
jcoutu1 Yeah love the way Eric builds his stuff.. the RTZ is local to me and it’s like a super high specd unit with crazy high end components just like the 286a ... 1073 but more open and modern but can also be terminated wish I could buy both and be done with but can’t quite yet too many things to add to the arsenal ... I am going to call Sam Ash tom and see if they can replace the wa76 with a new one.. I want to get the Serpent Audio Splice rack unit to replace the warm eventually. If I have to pay to get the warm fixed plus shipping prob have it modded or still sell.. If anyone wants to buy my old hs8 monitors ( original boxes, and excellent condition, ( have stands as well ) and a wa76 please let me know, thanks 🙏
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Post by notneeson on Oct 15, 2017 9:32:22 GMT -6
Have not tried the pres you mention.
I own an Ampex 601 that doesn't see a lot of use, but partly because it's pretty noisy compared to everything else we have here. Have also been using UA 610s on the regular for more than a decade. Honestly, the main thing I love these on is bass DI for a more "rounded off" bass sound.
I rarely do it, but if you send line level audio into the mic inputs on the 610 (or the 601) you can some very cool distorted textures.
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Post by adamjbrass on Oct 16, 2017 7:49:31 GMT -6
Haven't heard the Locomotive stuff yet, but most all tube-transformer circuits have some natural harmonics and tube compression. Even a super clean design can have natural non-linearity to it, that the ears may perceive as more musical. Tubes and Transformers together, make the magicks! Ha! Anyway, I think tubes are known to have more abundant even order harmonic distortion in the average. To my ears, most all tube preamps are "softer" sounding, with different attack to the leading edge of the transient. Unless they jam tons of solid state components around the tubes, hehehe. Anyway, This may be how you want to hear things or not. Solid State items are generally more "hard" and dense sounding to my ears. More leading edge attack, edgier maybe. Though I have found its best not to be racial about these things and try everything and see what its vibe is. I have heard the RTZ preamp and it is an Excellent option for a mic amplifier device. I liken its "vibe" more towards the Great River Preamp, or a classic Neve preamp. But its got its own thing for sure.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 16, 2017 8:46:12 GMT -6
adamjbrassOk so the softer transient thing made a lot of sense when describing the differences... like a velvet blanket... I mostly work in Rap/ Pop/ RnB/ so the only experience I have with tube units are Avalon 737... nice gear with clarity/ sparkle, still kinda plain Jane... I know the locomotive stuff is killer build and amazing components. I know the RTZ is as well.. wish I could get both... just lacking experience with tube gear 🤦♂️ And no place has both units aside from Pepper and he dipped to Vegas rather unexpectedly damnit
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Post by adamjbrass on Oct 16, 2017 9:53:56 GMT -6
The 737 is one of those pieces that tries to get a more Solid State tone, but it still reaps the benefits from tube performance. Its more of a hybrid design. I do agree its very plain. The EQ is my fav part of that unit. To my ears, the preamp is more on the hard/boxy side of life, but it gets the job done. Thick and high headroom. All good things that come from glowing fire-bottle amplifiers. Some of them are more opulent/thickly warm sounding then others. I would suggest checking out the Fearn VT1 too. That one is probably my favorite tube preamp on earth, besides the Hanks 660. With the Fearn, If you want to use a Line Level with that you need to use the LP-1 line pad. That always works out amazing in the mix for me. Its instantly amazing sound with a lead vocal recorded too bright and harsh.
The new Coil Audio CA70SE might be a good one to get as well. [When it comes out] They do have a Line pad right on the unit.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 16, 2017 10:11:16 GMT -6
Many times the immediate difference between tube and ss is in the handling of transients. Everything else may sound the same in a quick comparison. The work you do seems to be more 'transient oriented' than some other types of music.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919 
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Post by ericn on Oct 16, 2017 11:39:25 GMT -6
So much of this depends on the particular design so makeing general discriptions of either is useless. The most common attributes of both that are out there are great discriptions of the results of poor design.
Though for the most part the defining part of any tube circuit is its Transformers.
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Post by svart on Oct 16, 2017 11:41:17 GMT -6
I know Bob from RTZ. Maybe he could hook you up with a demo unit or something, but a lot of his preamps are built to order these days.
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Post by 79sg on Oct 16, 2017 12:38:41 GMT -6
We track a lot of hip hop vocals and decided to add a Tube-Tech MP2A which will arrive this week. It should pair quite nicely with the TT CL 1B.
Had a 737 many years ago and it just didn't wow me.
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Post by m03 on Oct 16, 2017 12:42:30 GMT -6
Need some opinion from those who know more about solid state be tube based preamps for recording and using for processing .... I am stuck between two preamps Locomotive Audio 286a and RTZ 9672 . Not sure where you're located, but if you're in SoCal, PM me and maybe you can swing by to test out the 286a I have. I own an Ampex 601 that doesn't see a lot of use, but partly because it's pretty noisy compared to everything else we have here. While the 286a is based on the design of the Ampex unit, it's supposedly not a direct clone, and it's been a quiet unit for me so far. The Manley preamp I had before getting the Locomotive had actually been noisier by comparison. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 16, 2017 14:39:25 GMT -6
m03Thanks so much for the offer. I am in Atlanta, GA. I wish I could swing on by lol. The locomotive gear is so well built. The attention to detail is second to none. Oh yeah love LA and Beverly Hill, just not the highway traffic 😂
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 16, 2017 14:45:53 GMT -6
I know Bob from RTZ. Maybe he could hook you up with a demo unit or something, but a lot of his preamps are built to order these days. Yeah he is like 25 minutes away from me in Alpharetta. I wish I could swing on by 😀 I don’t think he sells direct though. Also from what I was told Pepper’s Pro , which just moves to Vegas, was more of a, “ I can get the unit for you instead of stocking them “. He lists the Locomotive and RTZ on his site. I was gone drive up to Nashville to demo both units & hopefully bring some files home. Then listen for a few days & make a choice.. Well that’s not an option 😂🤦♂️ |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 16, 2017 14:50:54 GMT -6
We track a lot of hip hop vocals and decided to add a Tube-Tech MP2A which will arrive this week. It should pair quite nicely with the TT CL 1B. Had a 737 many years ago and it just didn't wow me. Wow that’s one pricey unit! Congratulations on your new baby.. Do you have any examples of the same artist thru a solid state pre and tube pre? Or will you? I know the cl1b well so if it’s in the chain that’s fine... What made you guys go with the tube tech preamp? You are the second person I have heard heard of using this pre but first for rap vocals.. I know a preamp does not care what it amplifies, however like Adam said earlier the tube topologies/ circuits treat transients differently than solid state. Do you feel the tube to tube will be too much? I am inexperienced with tube gear aside from the Avalon as well.. Yeah the Avalon 737 is mehhh And costs wayyyy too much |
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Post by 79sg on Oct 16, 2017 15:33:45 GMT -6
Not sure I'll be able to share the files, I'll have to check. We will be tracking this week and hopefully the new pre shows up in time. For rap / hip hop its always great to go U87 > 1073 > cl 1b, why? because it works but sometimes it's nice to shake things up a bit. Quite frankly I really like the mic pres in our Metric Halo ULN-8's and use them a lot too when I want clarity. The Tube-Tech is a very versatile mic pre that just works for lots of things (we track other types of music as well) and we've worked with them many times. I find properly designed tube gear to be hifi, warm, silky, blah, blah, blah  |
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Post by svart on Oct 16, 2017 19:49:36 GMT -6
I know Bob from RTZ. Maybe he could hook you up with a demo unit or something, but a lot of his preamps are built to order these days. Yeah he is like 25 minutes away from me in Alpharetta. I wish I could swing on by 😀 I don’t think he sells direct though. Also from what I was told Pepper’s Pro , which just moves to Vegas, was more of a, “ I can get the unit for you instead of stocking them “. He lists the Locomotive and RTZ on his site. I was gone drive up to Nashville to demo both units & hopefully bring some files home. Then listen for a few days & make a choice.. Well that’s not an option 😂🤦♂️ I think he will.. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 16, 2017 20:57:06 GMT -6
Yeah he is like 25 minutes away from me in Alpharetta. I wish I could swing on by 😀 I don’t think he sells direct though. Also from what I was told Pepper’s Pro , which just moves to Vegas, was more of a, “ I can get the unit for you instead of stocking them “. He lists the Locomotive and RTZ on his site. I was gone drive up to Nashville to demo both units & hopefully bring some files home. Then listen for a few days & make a choice.. Well that’s not an option 😂🤦♂️ I think he will.. Well if he does that would be awesome 🤠 Please let me know if you speak with him, I can PM you all my info and I can email/ contact him as well. Thank you |
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Post by notneeson on Oct 16, 2017 21:51:12 GMT -6
Need some opinion from those who know more about solid state be tube based preamps for recording and using for processing .... I am stuck between two preamps Locomotive Audio 286a and RTZ 9672 . Not sure where you're located, but if you're in SoCal, PM me and maybe you can swing by to test out the 286a I have. I own an Ampex 601 that doesn't see a lot of use, but partly because it's pretty noisy compared to everything else we have here. While the 286a is based on the design of the Ampex unit, it's supposedly not a direct clone, and it's been a quiet unit for me so far. The Manley preamp I had before getting the Locomotive had actually been noisier by comparison. I did not know it was based on the Ampex, so not meant as a cautionary tale. Mine likely needs the psu recapped and possibly removed from the chassis to a remote box. (Best guess). |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 16, 2017 22:35:21 GMT -6
Not sure I'll be able to share the files, I'll have to check. We will be tracking this week and hopefully the new pre shows up in time. For rap / hip hop its always great to go U87 > 1073 > cl 1b, why? because it works but sometimes it's nice to shake things up a bit. Quite frankly I really like the mic pres in our Metric Halo ULN-8's and use them a lot too when I want clarity. The Tube-Tech is a very versatile mic pre that just works for lots of things (we track other types of music as well) and we've worked with them many times. I find properly designed tube gear to be hifi, warm, silky, blah, blah, blah Chain 1: treated well studio with Booth: 87ai-> GTQC -> GTC2 -> works on every person I ever put in front of it ( 😱 but chase this mic sucks, well the you haven’t used it day in and day out achieving wonderful results all across the genre and frequency spectrum 😩😎) Chain 2: excellent treatment record in CR no booth : M7 blueline schoeps circuit -> Apollo Pre ( had my own GTQ2 I used but had to sell ) can get great results as well and most of my music is recorded with this chain due to not taking up valuable time we can charge for.. Plenty of experience with tube mics and solid state pres, just notntube pre or comps. I guess I’m gone have to go to Tree Sound and see what they got tube wise to learn on.. may eat some of my budget but I can purchase more confidently 🤘💯 |
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Post by notneeson on Oct 17, 2017 9:43:04 GMT -6
I don't think the 87ai sucks. Do people really say that outside of the purple place?
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 17, 2017 9:47:07 GMT -6
That seems th be the reputation of the 87ai ... it’s the $3500 price Tag I assume but who pays that anyway.. indiehouseWhy did you sell your RTZ preamp for Great a river? ( saw an old reverb dot com listing ) |
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Post by 79sg on Oct 17, 2017 12:19:11 GMT -6
The 87ai is a great mic, works on almost everyone and everything. So in 10-20 years as the parts age then it will be "the one to have" Isn't that how all of this stuff goes. Yes, I think the price makes people want to criticize it. When you are bringing prospective clients into your studio I've yet to hear one say "oh...that's an 87ai, no thanks", usually it's "cool you have an 87". A little off topic so back to "tube vs solid state preamp". I just commented about the 87ai because I find the polarizing opinions of it humorous. |
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