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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 12, 2017 10:36:55 GMT -6
I've used the Burl Bomber once before, and it did something I really like. Unfortunately, when I looked at the bigger picture, the advantage it gave me wasn't as important as other things like a great mic or a really good preamp. I also like the sound of the Symphony compared to my Apollo, and I imagine the conversion has a lot to do with it.
There are a dozen companies making Neve style preamps. Dozens more making Neumann style mics, some are very very good and they're 5X less expensive.
Why hasn't one of them made a Burl Bomber type A/D-D/A for less than a grand?
* I'm sure there are some good options with nice features, but I mean something that's really competitive in sound quality.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 12, 2017 10:46:03 GMT -6
Put your favorite 1:1 Transformers in front of a Svartbox or your favorite converter!
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Post by rowmat on Oct 12, 2017 11:00:34 GMT -6
Many converters use the same AD/DA chips.
It's often the rest of the design, analog stages, layout, power supply etc. that makes the sonic differences.
For instance the original RADAR units used the same AKM convertors as used by many other manufacturers but the RADAR was deemed to sound better than most.
Then there's the associated functionality, features DSP, drivers etc.
Great hardware with crap drivers isn't going to satisfy customers for very long.
Antelope seems to be singled out for this issue quite often.
RME on the other hand is known for excellent, efficient drivers with high track counts and low latency (even over USB 2.0) along with some of the best product support longievity in the business.
Developing reliable drivers requires skilled people and must include ongoing support.
I very much doubt you would get that in a cheap clone convertor.
With the rapid changes in digital technology, hardware connectivity and operating systems, cessation of product support is the deathknell for most digital hardware.
A Neve preamp clone doesn't require firmware and driver updates to keep it operational.
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Post by ulriggribbons on Oct 12, 2017 11:00:40 GMT -6
Coupla reasons come to mind.
1. Converters require real engineering, and firmware (unless your gonna do the flavour of the month ad/da chip that every other mfg are using). Also requires serious testing with different daw platforms. The companies who make clones of classic circuits are not in that game, they are out for a quick buck riding on someone else's name.
2. Market size. With the amount of r&d required in step 1, paired with the limited number of sales, just wouldn't be worth it.
You can look at the pro audio/boutique market and put most companies into one of the two boxes. Either in it for a quick buck, or in it because they are so obviously consumed by audio that they would do it whether you paid them or not. =)
$.02
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 12, 2017 11:35:28 GMT -6
Thanks guys, I see that now that it's trickier than a preamp or mic clone. Still, Slate, Dangerous Music, Apogee or even UAD,could pull it off I think.
I'd really love to have the Symphony's conversion for under a grand. Perhaps I'm wrong and the conversion isn't why I I find the tracks I've heard done with a Symphony so attractive.
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Post by mjheck on Oct 12, 2017 12:58:29 GMT -6
Hi Martin,
I've had a bunch of converters, including the Burl.
My favorite of all was a used 2192, which I kept and use for as much as humanly possible.
I haven't seen those for under a grand, but I have seen them in the 1200 - 1500 USD range.
They feature AD/DA and a lot of routing options (I run mine via ADAT into a little UAD Apollo Twin).
My tidy, tiny chain is a set of mostly RealGear regulars: Silver Bullet > RND 5043 > Zulu > 2192 > BLA Modified Apollo.
I've gone from tons of awesome outboard to this very slim setup, so each piece has been pretty carefully vetted,
and the 2192 is a critical piece of the puzzle.
I guess I am saying, maybe you need to look backwards instead of forwards for a Burl like converter : ).
MJH
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 12, 2017 13:44:38 GMT -6
Thanks mj. I know the Burl was based on the 2192. The designer wanted to go further, and UAD didn't, so he started Burl and did it himself.
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Post by mjheck on Oct 12, 2017 13:47:52 GMT -6
That is indeed the story. I found the 2192 had a charm unto its own that I preferred to the Burl.
Very obviously a matter of personal taste, but I thought it was surprising and noteworthy.
MJH
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 12, 2017 13:53:44 GMT -6
Good to know, thanks.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 12, 2017 15:04:36 GMT -6
I still have an Echo Audio Layla 24/96.
It cost me a bunch when I bought it and sounded great but alas support eventually ceased and I no longer have a computer with a PCI slot for the interface card.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 12, 2017 16:49:04 GMT -6
Converters are like monitors. Everyone has their preference. If you like the symphony, just get one used, because you'll always be yearning for it even if you buy something else. Once you have it, then you can say "ok, i don't want it any more, lemme sell it"
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Post by svart on Oct 12, 2017 18:12:48 GMT -6
A few reasons.. Thin margins. Extended development and testing, even with clones. Drivers. Drivers. Drivers. Support before, during and after purchase.
Clone manufacturers clone things that need very little support and have good margins. Conversion doesn't fit those things.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 12, 2017 18:35:10 GMT -6
Clone manufacturers clone things that need very little support and have good margins. Conversion doesn't fit those things. Also public domain schematics, but that's just a minor detail lol |
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 12, 2017 19:55:35 GMT -6
Many converters use the same AD/DA chips. It's often the rest of the design, analog stages, layout, power supply etc. that makes the sonic differences. For instance the original RADAR units used the same AKM convertors as used by many other manufacturers but the RADAR was deemed to sound better than most. Then there's the associated functionality, features DSP, drivers etc. Great hardware with crap drivers isn't going to satisfy customers for very long. Antelope seems to be singled out for this issue quite often. RME on the other hand is known for excellent, efficient drivers with high track counts and low latency (even over USB 2.0) along with some of the best product support longievity in the business. Developing reliable drivers requires skilled people and must include ongoing support. I very much doubt you would get that in a cheap clone convertor. With the rapid changes in digital technology, hardware connectivity and operating systems, cessation of product support is the deathknell for most digital hardware. A Neve preamp clone doesn't require firmware and driver updates to keep it operational. I agree wholeheartedly except fo the bit about Antelope. I've had no problems with my Orion 32 and it sounds great. Dunno about their other products. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 12, 2017 19:59:26 GMT -6
I've used the Burl Bomber once before, and it did something I really like. Unfortunately, when I looked at the bigger picture, the advantage it gave me wasn't as important as other things like a great mic or a really good preamp. I also like the sound of the Symphony compared to my Apollo, and I imagine the conversion has a lot to do with it. There are a dozen companies making Neve style preamps. Dozens more making Neumann style mics, some are very very good and they're 5X less expensive. Why hasn't one of them made a Burl Bomber type A/D-D/A for less than a grand?
* I'm sure there are some good options with nice features, but I mean something that's really competitive in sound quality.Well, svart made a damn good converter - which I still use...but while everyone said they would buy, they didn't. So it's hard to do something that complicated and then have every Tom, Dick and Harry have an opinion about it. I believe before he shut it down, he mentioned doing one with transformers in it. Maybe someone could talk him into it again.  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 12, 2017 20:00:51 GMT -6
You can get a Symphony mkI 2x6 for right at $1000 these days...and that's a beast.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 12, 2017 20:25:54 GMT -6
Hmm.. that's something worth thinking on. For the next few months I can't spend a penny, and new gear's on the back burner, but that wouldn't really cost me anything if I sold my Apollo. I thought the Symphony Mk I was noisy and had power supply issues?
John, if you had an Apollo 8, would you sell it for the Symphony Mk I ?
I have the option of keeping my quad satellite for using some UAD plugs if I want to trade over from the Apollo to the Symphony.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 12, 2017 21:05:09 GMT -6
Hmm.. that's something worth thinking on. For the next few months I can't spend a penny, and new gear's on the back burner, but that wouldn't really cost me anything if I sold my Apollo. I thought the Symphony Mk I was noisy and had power supply issues? John, if you had an Apollo 8, would you sell it for the Symphony Mk I ? I have the option of keeping my quad satellite for using some UAD plugs if I want to trade over from the Apollo to the Symphony. What results are you expecting from a converter swap? |
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 12, 2017 21:11:08 GMT -6
Put your favorite 1:1 Transformers in front of a Svartbox or your favorite converter! 1:1 Tranformers-Lavry Blue! |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921
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Post by ericn on Oct 12, 2017 21:17:35 GMT -6
Put your favorite 1:1 Transformers in front of a Svartbox or your favorite converter! 1:1 Tranformers-Lavry Blue! That would be a sweet combo! |
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 12, 2017 21:45:00 GMT -6
The Symphony MK1 fan is noisy if you have a pair of modules in it. Especially when the temperature is over 75F in the room that it's in. I have never heard anything about power supply issues.
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Post by rowmat on Oct 13, 2017 1:51:33 GMT -6
Mind you I know someone who had a Lavry Gold that had continual overheating issues that were never resolved.
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Post by adamjbrass on Oct 13, 2017 6:30:30 GMT -6
For Whatever it might be worth, I have always found the tone of the Burl, to be eerily similar to that of the Great River MP2NV. So if someone were to ask me for, "That Burl Sound", I can just about guarantee I will get there with this mic preamp.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 13, 2017 8:22:17 GMT -6
What results are you expecting from a converter swap? The files I've heard that used the Symphony had a richer, bigger sound than my Apollo. It was more 3D, wider and smoother. Cinematic would be a fair description. If changing converters would get me that sound with an Apollo, I'd do it, but like John said, perhaps I could trade over for a Symphony Mk I, get that sound, and keep the UAD Quad Satellite for their plugs. Adam said, "For Whatever it might be worth, I have always found the tone of the Burl, to be eerily similar to that of the Great River MP2NV. So if someone were to ask me for, "That Burl Sound", I can just about guarantee I will get there with this mic preamp".
That's interesting. My friend has the MP2NV, and I've borrowed it a few times. I prefer the new Stam SA73 to the sound of the Great River, but the GR is undeniably good. I also had a Burl Bomber for a week. Using my sound memory, I'd say the similarity is in the full but tight low end. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 13, 2017 8:40:20 GMT -6
What results are you expecting from a converter swap? The files I've heard that used the Symphony had a richer, bigger sound than my Apollo. It was more 3D, wider and smoother. Cinematic would be a fair description. If changing converters would get me that sound with an Apollo, I'd do it, but like John said, perhaps I could trade over for a Symphony Mk I, get that sound, and keep the UAD Quad Satellite for their plugs. Adam said, "For Whatever it might be worth, I have always found the tone of the Burl, to be eerily similar to that of the Great River MP2NV. So if someone were to ask me for, "That Burl Sound", I can just about guarantee I will get there with this mic preamp".
That's interesting. My friend has the MP2NV, and I've borrowed it a few times. I prefer the new Stam SA73 to the sound of the Great River, but the GR is undeniably good. I also had a Burl Bomber for a week. Using my sound memory, I'd say the similarity is in the full but tight low end. I would bet almost anything that the differences you're hearing are more related to the tracking equipment, techniques, and room along with the mixing rather than the difference in converter. |
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