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Post by popmann on Oct 11, 2017 20:46:53 GMT -6
What's new and what are you digging?
I tend to like small sections....I use the VSL Chamber&Solo strings mainly....a little LASS. Old school at this point--but, they used to be the only game in town for SMALL sections appropriate for pop. Now I see lots of players.....Spitfire, 8Dio, a few others I don't remember off hand....all doing Chamber sections and Quartets and such....I heard one that called itself "solo strings" but sounded like a small ensemble to me--which is odd, but it was lovely. I gotta search and remember what that was....
Just wondering what's setting your string arranging world on fire these days.
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Post by ragan on Oct 11, 2017 21:33:16 GMT -6
I'm all ears on this front too.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 11, 2017 21:45:15 GMT -6
LASS B section. Add the A section if you need Divisi. When I spoke with Sebastian Katz (one of the creators), he said that's how you're supposed to use it. The "Full" patches aren't really meant to be used if you want realism. they're literally just the A, B and C section combined.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 12, 2017 8:50:30 GMT -6
I use the VSL Chamber Strings too. Which is what - ten years old? Surely thereβs something newer and shinier.
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Post by b1 on Oct 12, 2017 11:32:12 GMT -6
I'd go for Spitefire if I add anything new. They're coming out with new flavors pretty regularly. I'm still using the Albion 1 (old one) by triggering textures and diff sections with the guitar, for inspiration or laying down MIDI patterns to manipulate later.
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Post by popmann on Oct 13, 2017 15:01:49 GMT -6
For perspective, Kennedy--I bought the Chamber Strings initially for Gigastudio....so.... 15 years ago? More? I know it was prior to anything being 64bit....and my 10 year old PC is 100% 64bit. I actually exchanged it for their then brand new "veinna Instrument" version because it could access more of my precious 32bit RAM than Giga. The new VIPro2 player with all it's new ways to bend the samples kept it alive. If you didn't buy that....you need to. It's not a trivial change. I ignore all the pattern stuff....just it's ability to do the stuff like each voice slightly delayed and getting it's own individual "finding tune" profile.
It still stands up well once programmed. I've just never been able to get a particularly playable Ensemble out of it....and for me....there's two times I need strings: demo'ing the idea of "hey--maybe strings here?" and "I'm going to sit down and chart out the strings for something being released"....the second, VSL never lets me down for. I can get them to sound beautiful and real and properly intonate....but, for the FIRST---the one that is literally the placeholder for the second, I'm almost always using something else. The Kronos has a really playable string patch I've used....East West has some....but the thing is--they're not going to stand up (for me) for a release....and when I switch to VSL to do "the real" tracks, the SOUND shift is SO drastic....it's an adjustment period. I've always wanted VSL to make a playable patch....so that when I can use it to "play" an idea---prove the concept....THEN I can dig into splitting out the voices and making those into fluid lines....and it will sound "like that but more realistic".
Spitfire's Chambers sure do eat resources for lunch. But, they do also sound nice.
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Post by M57 on Oct 13, 2017 16:48:18 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on Oct 13, 2017 20:01:46 GMT -6
....it's funny--I got htat email this morning and tossed it like I do all their emails because for ten years they've sent me what is effectively "get $3k in samples this month for only $2k" offers OR "listen to this obscure articulation of orchestral timpani never before sampled".... I don't even read them anymore. This looks to be aimed at exactly what my "complaint" is with the VSL I have now. Single moderate sized section on a sound stage....playable.
Bonus? Discounts on completing the old libraries.
Hmmm....I hate spending money on this stuff. I really do....because unlike say new keyboard VIs, it's not gonna inspire me to sit and create. Play. Goof.
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Post by M57 on Oct 14, 2017 4:21:16 GMT -6
....it's funny--I got htat email this morning and tossed it like I do all their emails ... Hmmm....I hate spending money on this stuff. I really do....because unlike say new keyboard VIs, it's not gonna inspire me to sit and create. Play. Goof. Me too with the junk e-mails. I purchased one of their basic "Special Edition" bundles about 6 or 7 years ago and I think I used it a half dozen times. I have to admit that as a casual spotty user I found the interface to be non-intuitive, and I'm sure I never used it efficiently, so eventually I just gave up on it. I can't tell if this new product is any different. I just looked at a few videos on youtube and it seems that the Synchron stuff runs on (requires??) Kontact now. I'm curious to know if this is true. I'm not familiar with Kontact, but I've got to believe it's easier than VSL's interface. I really do need to improve on what I have. This is my most recent track; but for the piano, which is real, I used nothing but stock Logic symphonic instruments. I'm sick and tired of having to work real hard to hide their "virtualness," not to mention being confined by the range of articulations, etc. I know I need a good library.
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 14, 2017 7:45:46 GMT -6
It's not a small chamber orchestra, it's a big orchestral string section, but I enjoy East West Hollywood Strings Platnum. The combination of the Decca tree, close mics, surround/vintage mics, and divisi (which I don't use very often) can yield really nice and flexible results. There are also bow change options, etc. I have Solo Violin as well, but tend to lean toward Gypsy Violin for solo violin stuff. I haven't yet picked up solo cello, but I want to.
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Post by popmann on Oct 14, 2017 15:23:16 GMT -6
I cringe if they're going to use Kontakt....but, I don't see that-they were burned long ago by NI who still hasn't fixed their copy protection (unless something has happened recently)--it said they have a new "included" player instead of the 15 year old Vienna Instrument....but, that it still runs in VIPro2.
M57....using them so exposed with just piano is rough. Using trem didn't help--to me that just always sounds out of place. Did you use Logics sounds over VSLs....because it was easier somehow? Send them a line and say you want to demo the VIPro2 player with your Special Edition....it's way deepr and more complicated....but, these will be. All of them. But, it sounds like a totally different library when you get that, which does their sort of input scripting like the modern Kontakt stuff does. enable the features like finding tune....anywhere you're playing chords on a single track, the note delay (which delays each note by a random amount so it never hits at once like you just played a chord on the keyboard)....it has a built in reverb, ehm.....it will do speed based articulation control.....time stretch the existing samples to give variations for different play speeds on the faster stuff and portamento glides....if I have a particular issue with VSL, it's their business model of the whole "Standard and full libraries"....the "included" Vienna Instrument vs the Vienna Instrument Pro. It's not like they're inexpensive samples--they should be floating you the better sounding player for them. IMO.
Not unlike Kontakt's "Player" that starts a demo mode timeout if you click the wrong button....causing you to have to shut it down and reload the instrument you paid for that claimed you didn't have to buy Kontakt....But, if a $499 instrument was actually $899 because you had to buy Kontakt TOO....people wouldn't buy it. so they don't. And all NI would have to do is make there be a warming box "you just clicked a feature only available in the full version of Kontakt--do you want to start a 20min demo mode of the full version, buy the full version, or cancel?" Problem solved--but, that's a not problem NI wants solved--they did that on purpose.
I digress....
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Post by terryrocks on Oct 14, 2017 15:35:33 GMT -6
Does anyone use the East/West stuff? They have the $35/month subscription that allows access to all VIs
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 14, 2017 16:02:12 GMT -6
I do. Hollywood Strings is East West. I don't have the subscription though.
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Post by popmann on Oct 14, 2017 17:57:15 GMT -6
I have the old QLSO if you want to buy it. I say old--it's the version they still sell now....the PLAY version. From memory, I have the Gold+all the mic paks....make me an offer. If you want, I'll even throw in an old iLok1 if you need it. I have the actual DVDs, too if you'd like to spend three days installing it. rather than me copying it onto a thumb drive. Aren't 128gb thumb drive like <$20 now? It's like 70-80, from memory. Big strings. Big orchestra. 70 piece ensembles and such. Not my sound. Not sure that I've ever used it in anything finished. If there were a $25/mo "VSL Everything" sub, I'd be there with bells on. Hell-I'd give them $25 just to complete my solo and chamber strings for a month so I can just do this project and not think about string VIs for another many years.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 14, 2017 23:16:51 GMT -6
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Post by M57 on Oct 15, 2017 4:51:28 GMT -6
So let me see if I have this straight. Native-Instruments IS Kontact, right? ..and they have their own VI strings product, but the Kontact engine is a shell for other 3rd party products - Like VSL. Contrast with EastWest, which has their own proprietary player.
It doesn't take much searching to find a bunch of players out there.
Albion (needs Kontact?) CineSymphony LASS 8Dio (Kontact) CinematicStudioSeries (Kontakt)
No doubt there are many more - I hope a few more people chime in.
I'm hesitant to try VSL Synchron because I'm worried that it may be too complicated because of the need for the Kontakt player. What's up with this Kontakt player? It seems to be somewhat of an industry standard, but it doesn't get a lot of love from some quarters.
I watched an EastWest video or two and it looks robust in terms of features and range and malleability of articulations, yet has a pretty accessible interface, but I'm reading that it's got some inconsistent programming issues where controllers are concerned. Probably not big deal, but I'm also thinking about whether or not I want a more cinematic sound - or a classical sound.. EW seems a bit over the top cinematic. Am I splitting hairs? Is it my imagination, or has the cost of a really good orchestral library system come down significantly in the last 5 or so years? All of these seem to be competing against each other in the $500-700 range. I was initially thinking I might only be in the market for strings, but at these prices, It seems like I might as well be looking for the whole shebang.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 15, 2017 11:14:29 GMT -6
Kontakt is a plugin that Native Instruments developed that lots of other companies have created sample libraries for.
Over on the LASS forum, there is talk about how LASS users got kinda screwed when Native Instruments contracted AudioBro to create their symphony strings player. It's basically the interface LASS users have always wanted for using LASS, but never got.
I still haven't found anything that tops LASS' A + B ensembles if you write your score out by hand first, and then sequence each part separately.
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Post by popmann on Oct 15, 2017 14:06:31 GMT -6
VSL isn't going to use Kontakt. But, yes---it's a development environment for third parties. There technically are third parties who sell devlopment kits FOR Kontakt...that they use....but....that's probably TMI.
For strings specifically EVERYTHING uses Kontakt except EastWest and VSL. You can't REALLY use the "player" in the real world, so add $399 to any of those libraries so that you can buy the full version of Kontakt, TOO. The ones that pay NI to be able to use the "player"....here's the deal with the player--if you hit the wrong button, it will without arning you go into demo mode and time out in 15 or 20min---causing you to have to restart and reload. They do this intentionally. Because it means people will buy the $399 to make that behavior stop. All they would have to do is grey out the "full version" feature buttons OR put a dialog pop up "this will put Kontakt into demo mode--do you want to continue? Yes/Cancel"---and you could use the player version, but their not taking those simple steps means they won't.
M57--where are you seeing that you need Kontakt for the new VSL? It says it has a new player AND plays in VI Pro2--and you NEED tpo buy VIPro if you use VSL for anything. Their 15+ year old included "Vienna Instrument" player is junk comparatively. I don't mean in usability--if you're confused by the VI player....VIPro will blow your mind with the depth, and thus (likely) confusion....but, I mean the SOUND--the included VI does nothing but performance legato. Their original Gigastudio scripting. VI Pro is where they used the same sample set to fo polyphonic legato....to do layering....to do individual note delays and finding tune, so that you play a chord and it will randomly delay each note by an individual amount like it was that many players starting.....and "drift into tune" differently on a per note basis.
I would've abandoned VSL YEARS ago without teh VI Pro 2 instrument. Your current Special editions will sound better in it. though, honestly--it won't get less confusing. It already sounds tremendously better than those Logic strings....so....I dunno what to tell you--string libraries are for programming. Period. If you aren't willing to learn the langue and methods of articulation switching....the last thing you need to do is buy another expensive library. They ALL need it. Some less than others. I suppose the methods may be a little different--but, this isn't a piano VI, where basically you can buy it, scrool the presets, pick one...and play. You basically HAVE to get tweaky....you HAVe to learn how the individual instrument moves through articulations and how best to deal with that in your sequencer.
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Post by joseph on Oct 15, 2017 14:24:42 GMT -6
Spitfire Chamber Strings (basically repackaged Sable) only requires Kontakt player now. I upgraded because of more streamlined interface.
Love all their stuff but I think to some people the natural AIR reverb would seem less appropriate for pop.
OT Berlin Strings is recorded with drier close mics at Teldex, although the sections are bigger. IMO that's really the only other string library that competes with Spitfire in terms of texture and realism, if that matters. There's also the first chairs pack which could probably be layered for a smaller section.
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Post by popmann on Oct 15, 2017 15:53:15 GMT -6
I think Spitfire sounds pretty lovely.
What I'm saying is that LOTS of things "only require the player".....the player will do into demo/timeout mode if you click onto a button that isn't available in the player. This will cause you to have to close the player, lose any work you've done....and reload the instrument, which for orchestral things can take MINUTES off a magnetic drive.
.....making it functionally unusable for me. So, it's reason 484756 I can't stand Native Instruments. They make the devs PAY THEM for the ability to "work with just the player"....then they gouge the customers to get them to buy the full version by not taking BASIC programming 101 ways around launching a timeout demo mode.
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Post by b1 on Oct 15, 2017 16:48:33 GMT -6
Yeah, the Kontakt Player is a joke. There is benefit for the full version... access to other libraries and making your own instruments; although I'm not a fan of NI. If the Spitfire libraries use too much resources for you, you can stream from another system into your mixer or interface - which is what I do if I have heavy processing on the main rig.
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Post by popmann on Oct 15, 2017 17:47:27 GMT -6
Yeah, I'm currently BACK to running two systems. I did that for YEARS.....I've been in the software instrument game for 20 years now almost. I think three machines was probably the height for me. I had a Mac running DP to sequence MIDI....an Akai DPS24 to handle the audio....and a Windows box running Gigastudio, BFD, and the NI B4.
Isn't the full version $399? This is what I mean--that's no benefit to me. I have ZERO interest in making my own instruments. Or editing them even. I don't pay $700 for a string library so I can go in and edit the key mappings and such. There's no reason ON PAPER I should need to pay $399 for a sampler. Just like you shouldn't NEED to buy an "upgraded" player from VSL ($150?), but you DO, if you want those VSL samples to reach their potential. They sell expensive products. Top shelf expensive instruments should have hidden costs.
That's one thing I will say for East West. PLAY is free. Upgrades are free. i would SO do the Composer Cloud thing if they had string or horn libraries I liked the sound of....because, those are things I don't need very often. I'd pay my $30 next month, when I'm expecting to have these ready for the orchestrations....do them and not need to pay anything for a long time. I wish VSL offered that--I'd be on that in a heartbeat.
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Post by b1 on Oct 15, 2017 18:23:06 GMT -6
@popman, I got a cross-grade discount on Kontakt 5 on 9-2015 when I purchased Albion 1. I paid $249.00 for Kontakt & $229.00 for Albion 1. Check for discounts.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 16, 2017 8:26:24 GMT -6
If you pay $399 for kontakt I got a license to sell you for $299 πππ Or one could go with Komplete for less coin and more VI...
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Post by popmann on Oct 16, 2017 9:11:18 GMT -6
#pointMissed
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