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Post by swurveman on Sept 26, 2017 7:40:45 GMT -6
I own a Presounous Central Station with ADAM A7x and NS10 speakers. With this setup, I have trouble hearing reverb balances in my mixes. I had my mix room done by Jeff Hedback. So, though it's not a truly professional environment it's pretty good for the money. So, I'm wondeirng if a higher end monitor controller will solve hearing reverb balances better. I would love to hear better the layering of rooms, halls, chambers and plates combined in a mix. If anybody has experience with one of the top end controllers-Cranesong/Dangerous/Grace etc- could you advise me if these would solve my reverb monitoring? I really don't understand why high end controllers would be better for seperating things like reverb in evaluating a mix. So, I'm intereted in hearing opinions and understanding these monitor controllers better. Thanks to anybody who reponds! I owned a Presonus Central Station and was never settled on liking it and got a good deal on an Apogee DAC so purchased that almost right after. I also noticed I was having problems with the high end on the Central Station. When I got the Apogee I was blown away.... and what I remember is (Ten years ago) the Presonus was disconnected sounding. The high end was beaming , the mids were disconnected and super scooped and there was no low end extension (about an octave missing). The apogee sounded true and solid... I still own it actually. Which Apogee DAC did you buy? I am seeing the Mini DAC but didn't want to assume that was what you're talking about.
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Post by sozocaps on Sept 26, 2017 10:16:32 GMT -6
Yup ... I still have it and use it. It has 16x D/A converter chips, it slayed the presonus...
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Post by swurveman on Sept 26, 2017 14:58:54 GMT -6
Yup ... I still have it and use it. It has 16x D/A converter chips, it slayed the presonus... Sorry if I'm confused, but when you say, "It has 16x D/A converter chips" are you talking about the Apogee DA16X which has 16 channels, or saying the Mini DAC uses the DA16X's chips?
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Post by sozocaps on Sept 26, 2017 15:43:16 GMT -6
Yup ... I still have it and use it. It has 16x D/A converter chips, it slayed the presonus... Sorry if I'm confused, but when you say, "It has 16x D/A converter chips" are you talking about the Apogee DA16X which has 16 channels, or saying the Mini DAC uses the DA16X's chips? Yes and the same analog section so it sounds almost exactly the same. All I am saying or trying to say is the Presonus Central Station and it's design does not even come close to good conversion.
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Post by longscale on Sept 27, 2017 7:41:46 GMT -6
For me it boils down to the entire chain. DAC, monitor controller, amp, speakers, room, ears. I used a Apogee Mini DAC as my DAC/Monitor controller for quite a few years. It was fine. However when I finally added a Coleman M3PH MkII I was blown away by the clarity I was missing. I needed the Coleman for a few reasons (source switching, speaker switching....) and I was a little depressed at the cost. However after I heard the difference in the audio path I wish I had picked it up years ago. Once I heard it - I would have been willing to pay 2x the price. It is a solid unit, and for me was astonishing how good it is. For me personally the Coleman now represents something I'd never part with.
Don't get me wrong - the Apogee Mini Dac is solid - but its volume control sucks compared to the Coleman at low levels (left right balance is not maintained). To my ears it also lacks the audio path clarity that I get with the Coleman. For a DAC only it is solid - but all I have to compare it to is my DA-16x.
However I'm not sure I was unable to hear revert tails with the Apogee Mini DAC. It worked fine for me. I've not heard the Presounous Central Station so I suppose it could be possible that its converters and analog section messes things up to the point that you are having trouble. With all gear if possible get your hands on what you think will solve the problem and listen to it in your room with your setup.
I do lean on headphones to check reverb balance - but I'd be fine if all I had were my speakers. I'd probably miss a little on the side of too much verb if only using speakers; but I know that about my ears/room so I tend to automatically compensate now.
One thing you might want to try is messing with speaker toe-in and placement. I know you paid money for room setup/treatment but I'd still mess around a little to find what works for you. Listening to some reference material move the speakers around a little and see if you can get yourself a better phantom center image. I did this with the help of a friend and a few 2x6's so I could move the speakers easily a few inches off their heavy sand filled stands. Messing with the toe-in for me presented a much better phantom center that had depth and height. Something you might try anyway. If you can't get things to a point where you hear reverb with source material then I'd start looking at other items in your chain; DAC, monitor controller, amp.
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Post by swurveman on Sept 27, 2017 8:29:16 GMT -6
For me it boils down to the entire chain. DAC, monitor controller, amp, speakers, room, ears. I used a Apogee Mini DAC as my DAC/Monitor controller for quite a few years. It was fine. However when I finally added a Coleman M3PH MkII I was blown away by the clarity I was missing. I needed the Coleman for a few reasons (source switching, speaker switching....) and I was a little depressed at the cost. However after I heard the difference in the audio path I wish I had picked it up years ago. Once I heard it - I would have been willing to pay 2x the price. It is a solid unit, and for me was astonishing how good it is. For me personally the Coleman now represents something I'd never part with. Don't get me wrong - the Apogee Mini Dac is solid - but its volume control sucks compared to the Coleman at low levels (left right balance is not maintained). To my ears it also lacks the audio path clarity that I get with the Coleman. For a DAC only it is solid - but all I have to compare it to is my DA-16x. However I'm not sure I was unable to hear revert tails with the Apogee Mini DAC. It worked fine for me. I've not heard the Presounous Central Station so I suppose it could be possible that its converters and analog section messes things up to the point that you are having trouble. With all gear if possible get your hands on what you think will solve the problem and listen to it in your room with your setup. I do lean on headphones to check reverb balance - but I'd be fine if all I had were my speakers. I'd probably miss a little on the side of too much verb if only using speakers; but I know that about my ears/room so I tend to automatically compensate now. One thing you might want to try is messing with speaker toe-in and placement. I know you paid money for room setup/treatment but I'd still mess around a little to find what works for you. Listening to some reference material move the speakers around a little and see if you can get yourself a better phantom center image. I did this with the help of a friend and a few 2x6's so I could move the speakers easily a few inches off their heavy sand filled stands. Messing with the toe-in for me presented a much better phantom center that had depth and height. Something you might try anyway. If you can't get things to a point where you hear reverb with source material then I'd start looking at other items in your chain; DAC, monitor controller, amp. Thanks for the advice. I'm gonna start with the toe in of my speakers and go from there. I looked at the Coleman M3PH MkII I and was surprised that at that price that there was no cue out, dim, controller for the desk etc. Those are things about the CS that are really nice.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 27, 2017 8:30:35 GMT -6
Busy today, I had to jump ahead and pass by the other posts, but can say this. I had the Adam A7X's, and what you're looking for is in higher end monitor. When I got the Avantone Abbey (3 way 400 W.) the mix was so transparent I stopped hearing the speakers because they vanished and only heard the mix. Good luck.
Forgot to ask, which reverb's you're using. Lexicons are muddy and a little hazy, with a push in the low end, that's their sound. That makes vocals more charming but a little opaque. The Seventh Heaven Bricasti plug does a better job of sounding clean. Some folks still like the Altiverb or Exponential if they like clarity in their reverbs.
I haven't tried the Slate verb suite, but if they keep adding on plugs like the Distressor, I may have to try their monthly package when I get back to work on new material.
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Post by swurveman on Sept 27, 2017 9:00:00 GMT -6
Busy today, I had to jump ahead and pass by the other posts, but can say this. I had the Adam A7X's, and what you're looking for is in higher end monitor. When I got the Avantone Abbey (3 way 400 W.) the mix was so transparent I stopped hearing the speakers because they vanished and only heard the mix. Good luck. Forgot to ask, which reverb's you're using. Lexicons are muddy and a little hazy, with a push in the low end, that's their sound. That makes vocals more charming but a little opaque. The Seventh Heaven Bricasti plug does a better job of sounding clean. Some folks still like the Altiverb or Exponential if they like clarity in their reverbs. I haven't tried the Slate verb suite, but if they keep adding on plugs like the Distressor, I may have to try their monthly package when I get back to work on new material. Yeah Martin, jcoutu mentioned better speakers as well. Everyboy love Amphions. Thanks for the Avantone advice. For reverbs I'm using a hardware Bricasti M7, UAD EMT 250 and Lexicon 224 as well as Slate's verbsuite and Waves Rverb and Trueverb. I do a lot of rock. So, I typically I use the Studio A of the Bricasti for for all the instruments to get them in one space, then will use the EMT 250 for the snare and vocal and some kind of hall from the Rverb for electric guitars. It's tough enough hearing the blend. So, I don't bounce the Bricasti on multiple instruments hoping it will all gel later. I don't use a lot of reverb. So, these spaces are subtle in the "turn it up till it's noticeable and back it off" theory.
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Post by mulmany on Sept 27, 2017 9:46:02 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 27, 2017 11:57:22 GMT -6
With those reverbs swurveman, I'd bet it's the monitors. A7X's smear and are hard in the high end. They're a good speaker in their class, but with that rig, you definitely need to take a step up, Amphions, the new ATC's, Barefoot's or the Avantone Abbey will get you there. I know it stings, needing really good monitors isn't as much fun as getting something like a couple of great new compressors, but it's necessary.
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Post by longscale on Sept 27, 2017 19:00:05 GMT -6
The other element is monitor width and distance from the listening position. I positioned my speakers based on Jeff's recommendation which was probably based on frequency response-particularly low end. They are around ~65" apart which may hinder the focus of the reverb. I am hesitant to change their distamce apart due to not wanting to mess up the low end response. To me that (65") is a bit wide for near-fields. However keep in mind - I'm not a pro - so my experience could be completely wrong! I've used NS10s for years (not my only monitors). While I never get excited to hear them, I do find them useful for balance decisions and they work well for me. I find them easy to hear reverb with. In my smallish room at 65" I'd be sunk however. I need them at 36" or less. I'd say even those Adam7s could use to be closer. My room sucks, so I just can't allow that much room sound to compete at a listening position of >= 65". I'd for sure play with putting them closer and just see what you think/hear. It could be your pro that setup the room likes things way differently than you do. Far be it for me to dissuade anybody from buying new monitors, DAC, or monitor controller. But I'd think you would be able to get what you need with the NS10s - assuming you put them a little closer than 65" - but then again perhaps your room is super awesome and huge. I've never had any luck going much over 30 or everything just becomes unfocused and super hard for me to figure out.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Sept 28, 2017 0:47:22 GMT -6
a7x are great and more than capable... you may not prefer them or like them but that doesn’t change their quality... I and others work on these with no issues but then again we are in a treated control room with them calibrated ... who woulda thought 🤠 Issues are prob the room treatment or room in general... the a7x is listed at $1500 a pair ... my hs8 cost half that and are very good for the money as well...
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 28, 2017 5:57:53 GMT -6
The other element is monitor width and distance from the listening position. I positioned my speakers based on Jeff's recommendation which was probably based on frequency response-particularly low end. They are around ~65" apart which may hinder the focus of the reverb. I am hesitant to change their distamce apart due to not wanting to mess up the low end response. To me that (65") is a bit wide for near-fields. However keep in mind - I'm not a pro - so my experience could be completely wrong! I've used NS10s for years (not my only monitors). While I never get excited to hear them, I do find them useful for balance decisions and they work well for me. I find them easy to hear reverb with. In my smallish room at 65" I'd be sunk however. I need them at 36" or less. I'd say even those Adam7s could use to be closer. My room sucks, so I just can't allow that much room sound to compete at a listening position of >= 65". I'd for sure play with putting them closer and just see what you think/hear. It could be your pro that setup the room likes things way differently than you do. Far be it for me to dissuade anybody from buying new monitors, DAC, or monitor controller. But I'd think you would be able to get what you need with the NS10s - assuming you put them a little closer than 65" - but then again perhaps your room is super awesome and huge. I've never had any luck going much over 30 or everything just becomes unfocused and super hard for me to figure out. 65" seems wide to me too. I measured mine last night and I'm at 50". No science behind my placement other than an equilateral triangle to the listening position.
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Post by swurveman on Sept 28, 2017 8:50:12 GMT -6
To me that (65") is a bit wide for near-fields. However keep in mind - I'm not a pro - so my experience could be completely wrong! I've used NS10s for years (not my only monitors). While I never get excited to hear them, I do find them useful for balance decisions and they work well for me. I find them easy to hear reverb with. In my smallish room at 65" I'd be sunk however. I need them at 36" or less. I'd say even those Adam7s could use to be closer. My room sucks, so I just can't allow that much room sound to compete at a listening position of >= 65". I'd for sure play with putting them closer and just see what you think/hear. It could be your pro that setup the room likes things way differently than you do. Far be it for me to dissuade anybody from buying new monitors, DAC, or monitor controller. But I'd think you would be able to get what you need with the NS10s - assuming you put them a little closer than 65" - but then again perhaps your room is super awesome and huge. I've never had any luck going much over 30 or everything just becomes unfocused and super hard for me to figure out. 65" seems wide to me too. I measured mine last night and I'm at 50". No science behind my placement other than an equilateral triangle to the listening position. I'll try it. Jeff's recommendation was to have the speakers that wide and have them pointing 18 inches behind the listening position. So, I'm sitting inside the triangle. People are talking about the directionality of the ADAM speakers. So, I'm gonna narrow the width and have them pointed directly at the mix position and see what happens.
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 28, 2017 10:20:14 GMT -6
a7x are great and more than capable... you may not prefer them or like them but that doesn’t change their quality... I and others work on these with no issues but then again we are in a treated control room with them calibrated ... who woulda thought 🤠 Issues are prob the room treatment or room in general... the a7x is listed at $1500 a pair ... my hs8 cost half that and are very good for the money as well... Totally agree. I find with my a7's, in my room, that if I turn up the reverb till its perfect, and then just back off a bit, its perfect in the mix. Maybe its the ribbon tweeters, I dunno. Either way, I find the high end to be very forgiving and not at all fatiguing, which can take some getting used to. Very different from say, an NS10, which smacks you in the mouth with harsh upper mids/high end.
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