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Post by porkyman on Sept 21, 2017 12:40:22 GMT -6
Get your vocal and drums right on the edge of too loud and then push em up 2db. I know, I know...you can listen to the instrumental when you're alone to get off on all the hard work you did that nobody can hear with that vocal up so loud. Exhibit A This ruined my day. I hope the world ends. |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 21, 2017 12:59:57 GMT -6
I avoid half days like the plague. Unless there's a reason why it works for me. Half days in many arenas translates to a 2/3rd day billed, to cover the fact you probably can't do anything with the other half day. |
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Post by notneeson on Sept 21, 2017 13:36:35 GMT -6
I avoid half days like the plague. Unless there's a reason why it works for me. Half days in many arenas translates to a 2/3rd day billed, to cover the fact you probably can't do anything with the other half day. Good tip. For me, with the cost of commuting to Oakland or San Francisco from where I live (Sonoma County) plus time away from the kids (rush hour is fatal here) even a 2/3rd day rate is a stretch. Mostly I redirect those type of gigs to my spot up here where I charge by the hour and walk to work. I should probably raise my rates, but then I'd be more expensive than Tiny Telephone, which is basically the benchmark in my world. |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 21, 2017 13:44:25 GMT -6
Half days in many arenas translates to a 2/3rd day billed, to cover the fact you probably can't do anything with the other half day. Good tip. For me, with the cost of commuting to Oakland or San Francisco from where I live (Sonoma County) plus time away from the kids (rush hour is fatal here) even a 2/3rd day rate is a stretch. Mostly I redirect those type of gigs to my spot up here where I charge by the hour and walk to work. I should probably raise my rates, but then I'd be more expensive than Tiny Telephone, which is basically the benchmark in my world. The half day rate being higher encourages the booking of the full day too. |
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Post by notneeson on Sept 21, 2017 13:47:45 GMT -6
Good tip. For me, with the cost of commuting to Oakland or San Francisco from where I live (Sonoma County) plus time away from the kids (rush hour is fatal here) even a 2/3rd day rate is a stretch. Mostly I redirect those type of gigs to my spot up here where I charge by the hour and walk to work. I should probably raise my rates, but then I'd be more expensive than Tiny Telephone, which is basically the benchmark in my world. The half day rate being higher encourages the booking of the full day too. Oh, for sure. But so does not having one! |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 21, 2017 14:07:55 GMT -6
Half days in many arenas translates to a 2/3rd day billed, to cover the fact you probably can't do anything with the other half day. Good tip. For me, with the cost of commuting to Oakland or San Francisco from where I live (Sonoma County) plus time away from the kids (rush hour is fatal here) even a 2/3rd day rate is a stretch. Mostly I redirect those type of gigs to my spot up here where I charge by the hour and walk to work. I should probably raise my rates, but then I'd be more expensive than Tiny Telephone, which is basically the benchmark in my world. Jesus. Based on that place, I should lower my rates... |
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 21, 2017 14:16:39 GMT -6
Aton Ben Horin, global vice president of A&R at Warner Music Group said, "Without a doubt, this girl is a real star with undeniable talent" .....uhhh, WHAT?!?!?! I guess taking a 14 year old and making her all ghetto talking about hoes is a winning formula in our trash culture. Her dad Ira isn't happy about it. "Ira told Sun Online: "I don't care that she got a record deal with Atlantic - it's just another form of exploiting this child. JK: Sorry for th hijack. Delete this if you want. Is this the "cash me outside" girl? I think it is. Nobody is making her all ghetto, she was that way already. Her fame came from a viral video of her on Dr. Phil acting real dumb. Hence, "cash me outside". This is simply exploiting her temporary fame for money. Trash culture indeed. www.billboard.com/articles/columns/hip-hop/7965832/bhad-bhabie-cash-me-outside-record-deal |
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Post by notneeson on Sept 21, 2017 14:19:46 GMT -6
Good tip. For me, with the cost of commuting to Oakland or San Francisco from where I live (Sonoma County) plus time away from the kids (rush hour is fatal here) even a 2/3rd day rate is a stretch. Mostly I redirect those type of gigs to my spot up here where I charge by the hour and walk to work. I should probably raise my rates, but then I'd be more expensive than Tiny Telephone, which is basically the benchmark in my world. Jesus. Based on that place, I should lower my rates... Well, personally I'm glad places like Electrical Audio and TT exist and enjoy some records coming out of those environments. But if you are in the same market working with unsigned bands, it is what it is. I also work on ads, podcasts, and web shows etc. and those tend to pay a little better. |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 21, 2017 14:28:32 GMT -6
Good tip. For me, with the cost of commuting to Oakland or San Francisco from where I live (Sonoma County) plus time away from the kids (rush hour is fatal here) even a 2/3rd day rate is a stretch. Mostly I redirect those type of gigs to my spot up here where I charge by the hour and walk to work. I should probably raise my rates, but then I'd be more expensive than Tiny Telephone, which is basically the benchmark in my world. Jesus. Based on that place, I should lower my rates... Rate comparisons should not be made as absolute identifiers of what you should charge. If you do that, you're pricing against every trust fund kid who isn't actually running a business, rather giving it away for the appearance of being involved. You have to charge what you need to stay afloat, and that's subject to interpretation. Truly interested clients are not swayed by a list of cheaper alternatives, they want you for what you do. Huge fudge factor of course. Lots of places are funded by other sources of income, and are actually write-offs covering some cash funnel elsewhere, thus the low rates. |
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Post by ragan on Sept 21, 2017 15:31:05 GMT -6
Get your vocal and drums right on the edge of too loud and then push em up 2db. I know, I know...you can listen to the instrumental when you're alone to get off on all the hard work you did that nobody can hear with that vocal up so loud. Exhibit A Thank you *so much* for making it the case that I now know who this person is. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 21, 2017 19:03:35 GMT -6
Jesus. Based on that place, I should lower my rates... Rate comparisons should not be made as absolute identifiers of what you should charge. If you do that, you're pricing against every trust fund kid who isn't actually running a business, rather giving it away for the appearance of being involved. You have to charge what you need to stay afloat, and that's subject to interpretation. Truly interested clients are not swayed by a list of cheaper alternatives, they want you for what you do. Huge fudge factor of course. Lots of places are funded by other sources of income, and are actually write-offs covering some cash funnel elsewhere, thus the low rates. It was mostly sarcasm. Nice Neve consoles at $300/day. How can I compete with that, ya know. I'm not actually going to drop prices, but that's bad for anyone in the area...other than bands.  |
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Post by notneeson on Sept 21, 2017 20:26:39 GMT -6
Rate comparisons should not be made as absolute identifiers of what you should charge. If you do that, you're pricing against every trust fund kid who isn't actually running a business, rather giving it away for the appearance of being involved. You have to charge what you need to stay afloat, and that's subject to interpretation. Truly interested clients are not swayed by a list of cheaper alternatives, they want you for what you do. Huge fudge factor of course. Lots of places are funded by other sources of income, and are actually write-offs covering some cash funnel elsewhere, thus the low rates. It was mostly sarcasm. Nice Neve consoles at $300/day. How can I compete with that, ya know. I'm not actually going to drop prices, but that's bad for anyone in the area...other than bands. Worth pointing out: it winds up between $550 and $600, barring tape, because you can't bring a session in cold as an (unknown to JV) freelance engineer. |
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Post by rowmat on Sept 21, 2017 20:45:04 GMT -6
I see several Neve/Tape studios here in Australia with a daily base rate of around $500 but then by the time you add around $250 for an engineer/assistant (often compulsory), another couple of hundred or so for tape hire/costs plus GST (tax) the all up day rate is more like $1000 excluding session musicians and producers fees.
To be frank I don't see how anyone can even make this work just recording self funded bands if renting inner city space with the cost of today's real estate.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Sept 21, 2017 21:23:15 GMT -6
If clients can barely afford your services at the rate it's at how do you suppose charging by the hour, which will cost the client more, will help maintain good rapport and repetitive return business? That works both ways: I just did my first flat rate project. The band came into the studio unrehearsed and spent hours discussing chord changes and working out arrangements and parts. That never happened when i charged by the hour. Based on that experience, if I ever do flat rate pricing again-which I doubt I ever will but you never know- I would have a caveat in the flat rate to say how many hours of tracking that includes. Otherwise, your studio could be used as a rehearsal space. Even one of the band members- seeing what was going on- came to me and said, "you should only give so much time as a "flat rate". People will take advantage of you". Lesson learned the hard way. Never again. Thanks for the feedback. I am fortunate to not have the issue you speak of and I agree with you. I hope you charge them hourly ... for me, tracking is hourly always... I'm speaking in regards to mixing and mastering. |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Sept 21, 2017 21:33:08 GMT -6
That's A good way to skate around the thin ice 😂 I already stated the obvious .. charging hourly from the very start.. Most my clients are long distance there is no way to prove how many hours I Mixed or mastered. And seeing as clients can barely afford what they can how do you suppose telling them to pay hourly which will cost more will go? Even with trust, a spreadsheet would be laughed at, and more than likely would lose business Those are the points I was hoping you would elaborate on but it's no biggie ... I need all the clientele I can get and I have overworked before but don't often... Edit* I know it's not that big of deal was just interested how you approach the uneasy clients... no worries man 🤘🤠 Edit 2: Sorry for the OT... I got a One liner tho.... Every DAW sounds different 😂 If charging hourly will cost them more, then your flat rate is too low. I was more talking about a flat rate for a start to finish project including tracking, mixing, etc. There needs to be caps in place for flat rate projects, if you're going that route. For example... EP Project Package A Includes - 3x10 hour days tracking, 5 songs, all mixed, 2 mix revisions, x amount of dollars. $40/hour additional tracking time. $50/additional mix revision. Something structured like that. I'm sure that we've all gotten into a project before where the artist lacks focus and is just burning your time because there isn't a "clock" running. Mixing is a bit of a different beast because you're your own clock though. Limiting revisions is important though. Have the group, or team, or whatever all get their notes on the same page before submitting. Make the changes. Maybe allow for a second round of tweaks, then delivery. I'm not saying that I've got it all figured out, and every situation is different, but having a well laid out structure seems best for everyone involved. Just my 2 cents. This is gold my boy Thanks!!! I will put together some package options. Yeah it's usually the mixing and mastering clients $25 an hour is pretty good and if I can nail the mix within 3-6 hrs then $75-150 (for the mix ) isn't half bad I guess... I really don't have issues with clients wanting revisions... yet ... 😂 |
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Post by nnajar on Sept 21, 2017 21:34:55 GMT -6
"Don't worry, it will sound better when we add the strings"
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,918 
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Post by ericn on Sept 21, 2017 21:53:18 GMT -6
Good tip. For me, with the cost of commuting to Oakland or San Francisco from where I live (Sonoma County) plus time away from the kids (rush hour is fatal here) even a 2/3rd day rate is a stretch. Mostly I redirect those type of gigs to my spot up here where I charge by the hour and walk to work. I should probably raise my rates, but then I'd be more expensive than Tiny Telephone, which is basically the benchmark in my world. The half day rate being higher encourages the booking of the full day too. There are 2 theories too rate sheets. 1 the rate sheet is the rate sheet it is the Bible. 2 the rate sheet is a guide, if it sits its not makeing money, part of that is thought, you got a deal, don't expect that deal always and don't give specifics of the deal or you will never ever see another deal. Deals are like fight club, first rule of fight club we don't ever talk about fight club. |
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Post by swurveman on Sept 22, 2017 8:40:44 GMT -6
EP Project Package A Includes - 3x10 hour days tracking, 5 songs, all mixed, 2 mix revisions, x amount of dollars. $40/hour additional tracking time. $50/additional mix revision. Something structured like that. I'm sure that we've all gotten into a project before where the artist lacks focus and is just burning your time because there isn't a "clock" running. Mixing is a bit of a different beast because you're your own clock though. Limiting revisions is important though. Have the group, or team, or whatever all get their notes on the same page before submitting. Make the changes. Maybe allow for a second round of tweaks, then delivery. I'm not saying that I've got it all figured out, and every situation is different, but having a well laid out structure seems best for everyone involved. Just my 2 cents. The great thing about this approach is the 3 x 10 hour tracking idea. Yeah, it's three long days, but it focuses the band knowing they have to finish all their parts in those three days. I can't tell you how often projects linger on for months with guys coming in at random days/times trying to lay down overdubs. Yes, that still may happen, but it gives the band an incentive to know what they're doing and they pay more if they can't track 5 songs in 30 hours, which is 6 hours per song. What percentage discount off of your usual hourly rate do you go by to come up with your EP Project Package? |
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Post by schmalzy on Sept 22, 2017 8:43:45 GMT -6
My situation is still evolving and trying to figure itself out. Also, my rates are pretty low. But, I set it up pretty similar to what jcoutu said:
I basically build a custom project package for each artist. I listen to them at a show/watch a video/listen to something that already exists/go to their practice/get a phone-at-rehearsal recording - whatever - so I'm informed of what they sound like and what their playing level is. I find out the number of songs and the runtime of the project (runtime is important - I had a band bring me a 9-minute song with lots of changes and needing A TON of tracks and expect it to cost the same as a 3-minute song) and figure out what I think it should take to record it.
Extrapolate that amount of recording time necessary by the hourly rate I'd like to hit: That's the flat fee for that certain amount of recording time. If they go over, there's an hourly rate attached to it. It motivates the band to make it happen on tracking day.
If I'm mixing the project, I'll shoot a flat fee for the mixes based on what I'd like to hit for my hourly rate and how long I think they'll take. Three revisions, after that there's an hourly rate for revisions. I shoot a little high on that estimate and I let the artist know it's because I'll edit as part of their mixing fees. I also have in my mind that at least half the songs are going to use the same basic mix settings. Save it as a template after the first mix like that is approved and some of the work is done. I can gain a little extra back on my rate there.
I master at a specific fee per song. It's lower if I'm mixing - I'm mixing into a stand-in mastering chain already so I have an approximation of what I'll be doing.
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Post by rowmat on Sept 22, 2017 12:51:55 GMT -6
Far from a one liner but because we track and mix most of what we track here's a common situation concerning rough mixes at the end of a day's tracking
What is your standard day length?
Our standard day is 10 hours.
Any longer than this and typically fatigue sets in along with diminishing returns.
I think it's important to make it clear that if it's a tracking day, and the client expects rough mixes at the end of the day, then you need to allow time for that WITHIN THE 10 HOURS to do the roughs.
There seems to be an expectation from many that they will track for 10 hours and then have you spend another 2 hours running off half a dozen rough mixes at no extra charge.
So it's important to point this out at the start of the session.
"We'll track from 10am to 6pm, then run you off the roughs and finish at 8pm, okay?"
Another common scenario is to track for 10 hours and offer to run off roughs after the client has gone home and Dropbox them later.
If that's agreed upon then fine, but that time should be billed on top of the 10 hours.
In most cases the clients are fine with this as long as you make it clear at the start.
Here's a trick that works most of the time.
Send someone out at around 5.30pm to get pizza and beer.
When they arrive back at around 6pm and the band members smell pizza wafting through the joint you assemble them all in the control room on the couch, hand out pizza and beer and say, "Right! Rough mixes!"
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 22, 2017 21:52:12 GMT -6
Hourly. Cut and dry. No surprises.
Hourly forever.
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Post by phdamage on Nov 20, 2021 9:00:35 GMT -6
I always talk about rates up front and I tell the band that if they have a budget they need to stick to, to let me know and I’ll do my best to keep us on track for that.
anytime I’ve had a remote mixing gig where I gave them a quote too early has always come to bite me in the ass.
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Post by drumsound on Nov 20, 2021 10:43:33 GMT -6
Back to mix tips...
Cut and re-gain was a good one for me early on.
Avoid Solo is one a preach a lot.
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