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Post by swurveman on Aug 25, 2017 15:27:45 GMT -6
Drum sample replacement and reamping is standard operating procedure in mixing in this day and age. If I'm hired to mix a song and thing those techniques will make my mix better, I'm doing them without asking the band. That's part of what I was hired to do. Yeah, me too. I often get band guitarists that come in with their cheap amps - and even though other member of the band say "don't you want to at least try Frank's $1,795.00 tube head", with a choice of cabinets between Alnico Blue or Celestions speakers- they insist on their amp. So, in that kind of situation I always record them with a DI too and reamp later. If I think it's better I'll play it for the band. There's a finesse of doing this and not piss people off, but I feel if what I do makes them sound better, I do it.
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Post by viciousbliss on Aug 25, 2017 21:19:37 GMT -6
What do you guys like to reamp with? I've never found it easy to work with S-Gear or Amplitube and similar programs. I've only ever used CLAGuitars. I've tried to figure the drum stuff out, but just thought other things like vocal fx were more of a priority.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 26, 2017 0:14:13 GMT -6
Drum sample replacement and reamping is standard operating procedure in mixing in this day and age. If I'm hired to mix a song and thing those techniques will make my mix better, I'm doing them without asking the band. That's part of what I was hired to do. I dunno, man.... Granted, what I do as an artist probably isn't what you generally deal with (judging by that statement), but if I were to send somebody something to mix and they sample replaced, reamped, or autotuned anything without first checking with me and perhaps discussing the issue I would be INCANDESCENT - and as Bob can testify (I hope), I'm generally pretty easy to work with. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm totally against parts replacement - my music partner (Let's call him Bob C) routinely replaces my rhythm guitar parts, but I'm right in the next room and besides, we've been doing this so long I have confidence he'll play my part, on my guitar, and sound just like me except better - and we agree on what "better" means in this context. But then, I've known him for, geez, 38 years now? and have been playing with him for 10. If it was someone I'd never even met in person I'd be pissed. But then, this never comes up anyway, as we have a self- contained operation up ntil it goes out for mastering. Which doesn't mean I don't sometimes wish for an outside producer and maybe a different engineer.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 26, 2017 0:21:50 GMT -6
Drum sample replacement and reamping is standard operating procedure in mixing in this day and age. If I'm hired to mix a song and thing those techniques will make my mix better, I'm doing them without asking the band. That's part of what I was hired to do. Yeah, me too. I often get band guitarists that come in with their cheap amps - and even though other member of the band say "don't you want to at least try Frank's $1,795.00 tube head", with a choice of cabinets between Alnico Blue or Celestions speakers- they insist on their amp. So, in that kind of situation I always record them with a DI too and reamp later. If I think it's better I'll play it for the band. There's a finesse of doing this and not piss people off, but I feel if what I do makes them sound better, I do it. What sort of music?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 26, 2017 4:48:04 GMT -6
Drum sample replacement and reamping is standard operating procedure in mixing in this day and age. If I'm hired to mix a song and thing those techniques will make my mix better, I'm doing them without asking the band. That's part of what I was hired to do. I dunno, man.... Granted, what I do as an artist probably isn't what you generally deal with (judging by that statement), but if I were to send somebody something to mix and they sample replaced, reamped, or autotuned anything without first checking with me and perhaps discussing the issue I would be INCANDESCENT - and as Bob can testify (I hope), I'm generally pretty easy to work with. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm totally against parts replacement - my music partner (Let's call him Bob C) routinely replaces my rhythm guitar parts, but I'm right in the next room and besides, we've been doing this so long I have confidence he'll play my part, on my guitar, and sound just like me except better - and we agree on what "better" means in this context. But then, I've known him for, geez, 38 years now? and have been playing with him for 10. If it was someone I'd never even met in person I'd be pissed. But then, this never comes up anyway, as we have a self- contained operation up ntil it goes out for mastering. Which doesn't mean I don't sometimes wish for an outside producer and maybe a different engineer. I guess I should have specified that for certain genres, it's standard operating procedure, but figured that was a given.
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Post by swurveman on Aug 26, 2017 7:15:01 GMT -6
Yeah, me too. I often get band guitarists that come in with their cheap amps - and even though other member of the band say "don't you want to at least try Frank's $1,795.00 tube head", with a choice of cabinets between Alnico Blue or Celestions speakers- they insist on their amp. So, in that kind of situation I always record them with a DI too and reamp later. If I think it's better I'll play it for the band. There's a finesse of doing this and not piss people off, but I feel if what I do makes them sound better, I do it. What sort of music? Punk/Pop, Hard Rock. If I had a good Fender amp I'd do it with the blues guys as well. The cheap combos have what I would call a "plastic" sound to them. Some guys immediately come in, play my amp and use it. Other's use their own, but I like giving them a choice by reamping. I'm not offended if they prefer their amp sound. I don't see it as a big deal and have not had any real confrontations when I do it.
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Post by Ward on Aug 26, 2017 11:36:50 GMT -6
"Fix it in the mix" is one thing but "Hey take this and turn it into music" is a whole other thing.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 26, 2017 11:41:19 GMT -6
I dunno, man.... Granted, what I do as an artist probably isn't what you generally deal with (judging by that statement), but if I were to send somebody something to mix and they sample replaced, reamped, or autotuned anything without first checking with me and perhaps discussing the issue I would be INCANDESCENT - and as Bob can testify (I hope), I'm generally pretty easy to work with. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm totally against parts replacement - my music partner (Let's call him Bob C) routinely replaces my rhythm guitar parts, but I'm right in the next room and besides, we've been doing this so long I have confidence he'll play my part, on my guitar, and sound just like me except better - and we agree on what "better" means in this context. But then, I've known him for, geez, 38 years now? and have been playing with him for 10. If it was someone I'd never even met in person I'd be pissed. But then, this never comes up anyway, as we have a self- contained operation up ntil it goes out for mastering. Which doesn't mean I don't sometimes wish for an outside producer and maybe a different engineer. I guess I should have specified that for certain genres, it's standard operating procedure, but figured that was a given. Yeah, I guess so, but should it be? Is it really (or should it really) be the engineer's job to cover up the fact that the "musicians" can't play? Do we really need more musicians who can't play (or get a decent sound out of their instrument?) Isn't all this really part of the "great race to the bottom?" Back when I was doing a lot of metal (mostly live, but that's actually beside the point I'm getting at) people were proud of their ability to play and to get a great sound out of their instrument. It seems like now that pride in their art has largely gone away. They all want the easy way out and let somebody else clean up the mess (while the "musician(s)" take the credit.) Granted, I may be a bit "old fashioned" in my attitude, but is that really a bad thing? It just seems to me that this is all another turn in the downward spiral that is the devaluation of music. OTOH, I guess it does provide work for people who need it, but at what cost? I dunno.
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Post by drbill on Aug 26, 2017 11:50:30 GMT -6
Well, it's been that way since the mid-60's when the wrecking crew took over LA. I learned from one of them how to make records, and it's a far cry from "calling the band in to play". You gotta do what you gotta do. Whether it "should" be that way is moot. Now, back to the OT, beyond fixing a flubbed snare hit or something very simple like that, I'd never ever start moving stuff around and changing stuff up without consulting with the artist. If they are open to it, and if they're willing to pay the extra it takes for me to make their stuff better, then sure....why not.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 26, 2017 11:53:27 GMT -6
Punk/Pop, Hard Rock. If I had a good Fender amp I'd do it with the blues guys as well. The cheap combos have what I would call a "plastic" sound to them. Some guys immediately come in, play my amp and use it. Other's use their own, but I like giving them a choice by reamping. I'm not offended if they prefer their amp sound. I don't see it as a big deal and have not had any real confrontations when I do it. Well, at least in the old days of punk (that sounds funny to me) the sound of a crappy amp pushed to the limit was part of the sound of a lot of bands. But then, I guess the crappy amps they had back then aren't really the same as the crappy amps they have now*... My mom always used to say "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!" Seems to me that that's all some people dothese days... I feel old..... * - I'm not real big on the idea of reamping in general, but I can easily understand wanting to do it if somebody insisted on using, for example, a Line 6 combo amp.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 26, 2017 11:59:12 GMT -6
Well, it's been that way since the mid-60's when the wrecking crew took over LA. I learned from one of them how to make records, and it's a far cry from "calling the band in to play". You gotta do what you gotta do. Whether it "should" be that way is moot. Now, back to the OT, beyond fixing a flubbed snare hit or something very simple like that, I'd never ever start moving stuff around and changing stuff up without consulting with the artist. If they are open to it, and if they're willing to pay the extra it takes for me to make their stuff better, then sure....why not. I'm not at all opposed to calling in one or more hired guns. I don't see that as the same thing at all. As an engineer I'd never do it without consulting the artist but as a producer I might, depending on the situation.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 26, 2017 12:06:00 GMT -6
What do you guys like to reamp with? I've never found it easy to work with S-Gear or Amplitube and similar programs. I've only ever used CLAGuitars. I've tried to figure the drum stuff out, but just thought other things like vocal fx were more of a priority. If I were to actually reamp something I'd use an amplifier. In between me and my partner Bob C we have probably 25 -30 various amps (maybe more?), ranging from about 1.5 watts (Vox Lil Night Train) up to 140 watts (mid '70s Twin with factory JBLs). Bob even has one of those monster 1000 watt GK bass amps, but that's down in LA with his brother right now.
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Post by drbill on Aug 26, 2017 12:33:00 GMT -6
Well, it's been that way since the mid-60's when the wrecking crew took over LA. I learned from one of them how to make records, and it's a far cry from "calling the band in to play". You gotta do what you gotta do. Whether it "should" be that way is moot. Now, back to the OT, beyond fixing a flubbed snare hit or something very simple like that, I'd never ever start moving stuff around and changing stuff up without consulting with the artist. If they are open to it, and if they're willing to pay the extra it takes for me to make their stuff better, then sure....why not. I'm not at all opposed to calling in one or more hired guns. I don't see that as the same thing at all. As an engineer I'd never do it without consulting the artist but as a producer I might, depending on the situation. Yes. Producer vs. engineer is a critical distinction.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 26, 2017 12:56:02 GMT -6
Punk/Pop, Hard Rock. If I had a good Fender amp I'd do it with the blues guys as well. The cheap combos have what I would call a "plastic" sound to them Well, at least in the old days of punk (that sounds funny to me) the sound of a crappy amp pushed to the limit was part of the sound of a lot of bands. But then, I guess the crappy amps they had back then aren't really the same as the crappy amps they have now*... I recall the punk band that showed up with 100W modern Marshalls, couldn't get a recorded sound. Plugged in the Champ they brought along, straight in, dimed it, instant sound. Straight off a classic (?!?) Black Flag record.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 26, 2017 21:33:56 GMT -6
I guess I should have specified that for certain genres, it's standard operating procedure, but figured that was a given. Yeah, I guess so, but should it be? Is it really (or should it really) be the engineer's job to cover up the fact that the "musicians" can't play? Do we really need more musicians who can't play (or get a decent sound out of their instrument?) Isn't all this really part of the "great race to the bottom?" Back when I was doing a lot of metal (mostly live, but that's actually beside the point I'm getting at) people were proud of their ability to play and to get a great sound out of their instrument. It seems like now that pride in their art has largely gone away. They all want the easy way out and let somebody else clean up the mess (while the "musician(s)" take the credit.) Granted, I may be a bit "old fashioned" in my attitude, but is that really a bad thing? It just seems to me that this is all another turn in the downward spiral that is the devaluation of music. OTOH, I guess it does provide work for people who need it, but at what cost? I dunno. I'm not fixing things for guys that can't play. You can only put so much polish on a turd. I'm talking about supplementing a snare track with a couple of samples to get the richness, crack, and depth required of a modern radio-style rock track. Or adding some beef to some tom hits. If these techniques make the track better, why not use them. Obviously, this stuff doesn't work for everything, but there are plenty of scenarios where this stuff will bring the sounds from garage recording to label sounding mixes.
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Post by viciousbliss on Aug 26, 2017 23:35:10 GMT -6
I remember the 90s Metal ethic. Lot of hype around bands like Opeth, Emperor, In Flames, Death, Iced Earth, Cradle of Filth, Nevermore, Blaze, etc. These bands would release stuff and everyone would be blown away by the latest album. The productions were all creative too, even though a lot of bands used Morrissound or Abyss Studios. Fans took pride in being a part of the then future classics. There were barely any samples to listen to online, so reputation sold everything. Eventually bands got obsessed with crystal clear sterility and making an assembly line product with the same fake drum sounds. Effort went out the window. Morrissound lost more and more of its identity to the point where they sounded like any generic studio on CL. A punk band today would probably try to make everything sterile and perfect. You'd never hear anything like the original Misfits. As I understand it, those albums had no budget or time but they sound perfect for the material. Same deal with Venom. A band ruined by obsessing over production values. Even their 1996 re-recordings sound all wrong and too polished for the type of music.
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Post by swurveman on Aug 27, 2017 8:05:21 GMT -6
I guess I should have specified that for certain genres, it's standard operating procedure, but figured that was a given. Yeah, I guess so, but should it be? Is it really (or should it really) be the engineer's job to cover up the fact that the "musicians" can't play? Do we really need more musicians who can't play (or get a decent sound out of their instrument?) Isn't all this really part of the "great race to the bottom?" Back when I was doing a lot of metal (mostly live, but that's actually beside the point I'm getting at) people were proud of their ability to play and to get a great sound out of their instrument. It seems like now that pride in their art has largely gone away. They all want the easy way out and let somebody else clean up the mess (while the "musician(s)" take the credit.) Granted, I may be a bit "old fashioned" in my attitude, but is that really a bad thing? It just seems to me that this is all another turn in the downward spiral that is the devaluation of music. OTOH, I guess it does provide work for people who need it, but at what cost? I dunno. For me, part of the problem is the flat rate fee per song. I just offerred it and my first band came in. Whether intentionally knowing they had unlimited time, or just because they're lazy and lousy, they came in not knowing what to play when the verse changed to the chorus and were not well rehearsed generally-or they can't play. Based on this experience I have decided that my flat rate will now include only so many hours recording. If they're not well rehearsed or can't play their parts they're going to pay for it after their alloted time. Personally, I think the "race to the bottom" begins with the declining revenues of the bands-both in an environment where everybody thinks muisic should be free and the declining amount of interest and money in the bar band business. If they're not making money they have less disposable money to record knowing that in most cases they're not going to recoup their investment. I just had a band record 4 songs and they didn't even record a CD. Their proudest moment was being on Spotify. It was a badge of honor to them even though they know-or at least should- that they're not gonna earn any money. I had another well known artist tell me his revenue stream has been crushed by Spotify. He used to sell CD's. Nobody will buy them any more. It's all about people expecting and receiving free music.
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Post by viciousbliss on Aug 27, 2017 10:56:35 GMT -6
A decade ago, the best most of these local bands could hope for was a split of the door. Maybe $20 a member most of the time. Bars would try to pay the least amount possible. I'm sure the cover bands get paid though. But those guys probably aren't going to record much. Or if they do, they might try to do a lot of it themselves. The only cover band around here I recall recording at all was 7th Heaven. But I think they had a lot of originals too. I just rarely heard their originals at the fests I saw them at. If a studio is turning out ordinary-sounding recordings using a computer, that really makes potential clients feel like they could just do it all themselves. Some local bands had cds recorded at local places, but they sounded like junk. Harsh, unbalanced. Then they'd want $5 for em. It didn't help that the songs weren't all there. Maybe nowadays it would be easier for bands to get a following if they were any good.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 27, 2017 14:56:06 GMT -6
Yeah, I guess so, but should it be? Is it really (or should it really) be the engineer's job to cover up the fact that the "musicians" can't play? Do we really need more musicians who can't play (or get a decent sound out of their instrument?) Isn't all this really part of the "great race to the bottom?" Back when I was doing a lot of metal (mostly live, but that's actually beside the point I'm getting at) people were proud of their ability to play and to get a great sound out of their instrument. It seems like now that pride in their art has largely gone away. They all want the easy way out and let somebody else clean up the mess (while the "musician(s)" take the credit.) Granted, I may be a bit "old fashioned" in my attitude, but is that really a bad thing? It just seems to me that this is all another turn in the downward spiral that is the devaluation of music. OTOH, I guess it does provide work for people who need it, but at what cost? I dunno. I'm not fixing things for guys that can't play. You can only put so much polish on a turd. I'm talking about supplementing a snare track with a couple of samples to get the richness, crack, and depth required of a modern radio-style rock track. Or adding some beef to some tom hits. If these techniques make the track better, why not use them. Obviously, this stuff doesn't work for everything, but there are plenty of scenarios where this stuff will bring the sounds from garage recording to label sounding mixes. OK. I wasn't thinking specifically of you, more commenting on general trends. It just seems to me a an awful lot of that is the inevitable side effect of people who aren't really qualified doing their own tracking, as well as a narrowing of certain norms. There are people around who would sample replace Bonham, and would insist on close micing (and heavily gating) every drum in order to facilitate that sample replacement. That makes me feel that something is being lost. I'm doing mostly somewhat retro country right now. I wouldn't want rock-influenced drums on that. I don't want the spotlight on the drums - I want the spotlight on the SONG.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 27, 2017 15:01:42 GMT -6
A punk band today would probably try to make everything sterile and perfect. You'd never hear anything like the original Misfits. As I understand it, those albums had no budget or time but they sound perfect for the material. Same deal with Venom. A band ruined by obsessing over production values. Even their 1996 re-recordings sound all wrong and too polished for the type of music. I don't believe there are any real new punk bands anymore.
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 27, 2017 18:14:11 GMT -6
A punk band today would probably try to make everything sterile and perfect. You'd never hear anything like the original Misfits. As I understand it, those albums had no budget or time but they sound perfect for the material. Same deal with Venom. A band ruined by obsessing over production values. Even their 1996 re-recordings sound all wrong and too polished for the type of music. I don't believe there are any real new punk bands anymore. Hey now
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 27, 2017 18:50:40 GMT -6
I don't believe there are any real new punk bands anymore. Hey now What passes for "punk"now has become a stereotyped "genre". That's not what real punk was about. Real punks would piss in your computer. It was all about originality, self expression, DIY, and not being like anybody else. And attitude. Lots of attitude. IMO punk started dying with the advent of LA hardcore and their enforced conformity.
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 27, 2017 18:58:57 GMT -6
I'd agree, most bands that actively identified as a punk band were often pretty poor. Bands like Scratch Acid or Big Black kept much more of the punk attitude without having to be all just power chords and denim jackets. I'd consider my band to be from the punk tradition. A lot of bands I know would. The idea of a sort of punk being 'legitimate' contradicts the idea of punk itself.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 27, 2017 21:09:50 GMT -6
You see, I was there when it all started. At one time 20 people, 14 of them in bands were the "Punk scene", before the term was coined. This is what Punk was, following your authentic self to its realized end. Punks were legitimate by in fact being who they really were. All of the bands that began the movement were extremely different, yet the same in this one way, being unique to themselves. As time passed, others copied it, developed it, packaged it, sold it, but the core of it all was authenticity.
It was "punk" to be authentic, and the anger and pushback was against the bloated carny show R&R had become, and the fact that New York was our home that had been abandoned and left to rot, yet we stayed and made something of it.
Many of us didn't make it.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Aug 28, 2017 6:05:36 GMT -6
In my place years ago, I had a production team that would (almost always) replace the guitars, bass, and drums, with their own performances after the band had left. (I was sworn to secrecy!)
These were all major hard core or metal bands. Very well known. Funny enough, the producers were fabulous players, and in fact their performances were vastly better then what the bands had originally played.
Why these bands were ever signed in the first place, is another story altogether???
Funny enough, except for one band, I don't remember anyone ever saying or noticing anything. Either they noticed and were happy with the results, or the bands just never realized, and really though they played the parts that well? Who knows, but this started in the late 90's and carried on for years....
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