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Post by ragan on Sept 19, 2017 23:09:43 GMT -6
I haven't mixed a record with (significant) reverb on the drums in many years. I usually send a little of the overheads to my "Studio A" type reverb that most everything gets as a binder....but, the days of specific reverbs to shape a snare or toms are over--I just add the Air Studios room mics and manipulate them like I would....it's quicker AND better sounding--how often does THAT happen? Yeah I can't hack reverb-trying-to-be-room usually. I usually mic the kit, get my takes, then do specific hits of everything for each song. Then I'll usually go back and make WAVs of just the room mics on the sample hits and put them into my Slate Trigger file and then trigger them along with my actual drum tracks. Question: does Superior Drummer have a triggering engine like Addictive Drums does? Or can I output midi from Slate Trigger to one of these drum VI's? I've not heard a better triggering engine than Slate's, though I can't stand his samples. I just messed with the Addictive Drums Triggering demo and the sonics are pretty good but there were some quirks to the triggering, particularly on kick, which is odd since that's usually about the easiest thing to trigger correctly. Does SD trigger from live drum tracks?
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Post by popmann on Sept 20, 2017 7:05:15 GMT -6
The new one analyzes offline to generate midi. They ALL respond to incoming midi--literally what makes it a VI. As to touting live from something else, logic and Cubase--no problem. Others, ymmv.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 20, 2017 7:11:46 GMT -6
From the website;
WHAT TYPE OF AUDIO FILES CAN I USE WITH THE NEW TRACKER TAB? The integrated offline audio to MIDI converter known as the Tracker tab in Superior Drummer 3 works with drum audio files in the WAV, AIFF, FLAC, OGG, and MP3 format. Tracker is designed to be used with multi-track drum audio files, meaning that multiple close microphones were used to capture all instruments in the drum kit. Using Tracker with multi-microphone drum audio files will yield the best results. However, due to the intelligent instrument recognition system Tracker can also extract multiple different individual instruments from a single audio file (such as a mono overhead or a stereo mix of a drum kit). Using Tracker in this way will most likely require more effort from the user in refining trigger points. Tracker can recognize six classifications of instruments: kick, snare, hi-hat, ride, toms and cymbals.
Tracker can recognize 6 classifications of instruments: Kick, Snare, Hi-Hat, Ride, Toms, and Cymbals.
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Post by popmann on Sept 20, 2017 7:51:15 GMT -6
Right. You feed it files offline. It detects them and converts them to MIDI. The thing that makes it above and beyond Cubase/Logic's built in abilities is that it recognizes the file type and apparently uses different algorithms--so, it can pull cymbal hits only out of overhead tracks....and of course it does them all at once as a set. FWIW--I rarely do more than kick and snare when mixing, but it depends on the level of tom play of the drummer. FWIW--I use the two sets of ambience mics in BFD2--the shorter more aggressive one for the snare and the longer more distant "clean sounding" set for the kick. Since you can also vary the width and distance of each in BFD2....it allows that fine tuning. If I do the toms, they generally go to the distant mics with the kick.
It's a great feature if you spend time doing drum replacement/augmentation. I don't. either Cubase or Logic will have the kick and snare converted pretty accurately in seconds for a song. The only time issue there is if the player is going back and forth between side and snare.....or plays a LOT of snare ghost notes. I recently mixed an album with a tune with a "train beat"....I didn't do the augmentation on that one.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 20, 2017 8:24:44 GMT -6
You can convert logic drummer files to midi within logic too, would that work better with sd3 or would it not matter ?
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Post by swurveman on Sept 20, 2017 8:28:35 GMT -6
From the website; WHAT TYPE OF AUDIO FILES CAN I USE WITH THE NEW TRACKER TAB? The integrated offline audio to MIDI converter known as the Tracker tab in Superior Drummer 3 works with drum audio files in the WAV, AIFF, FLAC, OGG, and MP3 format. Tracker is designed to be used with multi-track drum audio files, meaning that multiple close microphones were used to capture all instruments in the drum kit. Using Tracker with multi-microphone drum audio files will yield the best results. However, due to the intelligent instrument recognition system Tracker can also extract multiple different individual instruments from a single audio file (such as a mono overhead or a stereo mix of a drum kit). Using Tracker in this way will most likely require more effort from the user in refining trigger points. Tracker can recognize six classifications of instruments: kick, snare, hi-hat, ride, toms and cymbals. Tracker can recognize 6 classifications of instruments: Kick, Snare, Hi-Hat, Ride, Toms, and Cymbals. How is this different from the way I did in in Superior 2 and Cubase? The old way I would create hitpoints in the Cubase audio channels and assign a midi note. This would show up as hits on the midi track which then would trigger Superior Drummer's mixer channels. Is Superior 3 able to distinguish the snare hit from the kick bleed without having to do hitpoints? That would be great. Being able to isolate cymbals in overhead channels would be great as well. EDIT: I watched the video. They make it seem very simple, by simply importing the .wav files. They have a horizontal line showing the other hits in the mic and you raise that line to differentiate the hits you want compared to the hits you don't want. They didn't go into a lot of detail, but I suspect that capturing things like snare ghost notes will be very difficult as it is in creating hitpoints in Cubase.
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Post by popmann on Sept 20, 2017 8:41:04 GMT -6
You can convert logic drummer files to midi within logic too, would that work better with sd3 or would it not matter ? the Logic Drummer is all midi from the get go. While I know what you mean--this is a completely different scenario that converting audio into MIDI. It will sound better, because they're better sounds....but, they won't groove as intended, because the hat will be "wrong". See other posts about Apple's use of proprietary Articulation ID while every drum instrument will use some form of CC message to vary the hat closed to open.
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Post by ragan on Sept 20, 2017 8:47:22 GMT -6
Interesting. The whole thing about Slate Trigger, for me, is that you can get the sensitivity and gating and groove of the samples locked in super well in seconds. And you can automate things live. Like say there's a really nuanced snare fill you want to be triggered with all its variance, you can automate the sensitivity way up on just that fill, where if it were that sensitive the whole time it would be triggering on the bleed from toms or kick or whatever.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 20, 2017 9:11:37 GMT -6
I haven't mixed a record with (significant) reverb on the drums in many years. I usually send a little of the overheads to my "Studio A" type reverb that most everything gets as a binder....but, the days of specific reverbs to shape a snare or toms are over--I just add the Air Studios room mics and manipulate them like I would....it's quicker AND better sounding--how often does THAT happen? Yupp Studio A is also my GOTO preset on the 7H for the OH. I sometimes like some FX on the toms too.... I am one of those nostalgic feel people.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 20, 2017 9:25:39 GMT -6
I have the basic 7th Heaven and the UAD Ocean Way plug. How would you guys suggest I use those reverbs?
* Ocean Way for drums, cut the overheads in Superior Drummer 2?
* Separate instance of 7th Heaven Studio A on a bus just for drums, cut room mics in SD2?
Currently, I use 7H London Plate for basic reverb, followed by Relab Large Room HD, and the UAD Spring Reverb, each on busses of their own. I dial in mostly 7th Heaven, a little Relab here and there for grit, and usually save the Spring reverb for only a couple of stringed instruments if a little vibe is needed. 7th Heaven doesn't seem to use tremendous DSP power, so I can easily put use an instance on a separate drum bus.
Popmann, you've mentioned something a few times I wasn't aware of. I'm not great at processing individual drum tracks, so I usually just use SD's Stereo mix. Am I losing quality by not using separate tracks for each drum?
I rarely use Logic's Drummer, but plan to learn to use it more effectively over the next few months. I should use separate tracks for that one, correct?
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Post by swurveman on Sept 20, 2017 9:37:00 GMT -6
For you Cubase users: A guy at the purple place is saying that SD3 for Cubase only uses the 2.4 version.So, according to him alot of the nicefeature in SD3 won't work in Cubase. I questioned him about it and here was his response.
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Post by donr on Sept 20, 2017 9:37:09 GMT -6
I haven't mixed a record with (significant) reverb on the drums in many years. I usually send a little of the overheads to my "Studio A" type reverb that most everything gets as a binder....but, the days of specific reverbs to shape a snare or toms are over--I just add the Air Studios room mics and manipulate them like I would....it's quicker AND better sounding--how often does THAT happen? Jamie, do you mean it's out of fashion to use 'verb as part of the snare sound?
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Post by popmann on Sept 20, 2017 10:19:45 GMT -6
I haven't mixed a record with (significant) reverb on the drums in many years. I usually send a little of the overheads to my "Studio A" type reverb that most everything gets as a binder....but, the days of specific reverbs to shape a snare or toms are over--I just add the Air Studios room mics and manipulate them like I would....it's quicker AND better sounding--how often does THAT happen? Jamie, do you mean it's out of fashion to use 'verb as part of the snare sound? I wouldn't say any of my opinions/practices have much direct relation to fashion--probably to the detriment of my business. I'm saying that outside of a ballad where you want that big drippy thing, particularly on the side stick)....I don't use any--big room mic samples just sound more realistic.
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Post by popmann on Sept 20, 2017 10:22:52 GMT -6
For you Cubase users: A guy at the purple place is saying that SD3 for Cubase only uses the 2.4 version.So, according to him alot of the nicefeature in SD3 won't work in Cubase. I questioned him about it and here was his response. What are you asking? I think that's bullshit. If it's using VST v2.4, that's Toontracks doing that, not Cubase. Cubase invented VST3 like they did 2.4. As to new features not working....that might be true, but WHAT features? I'm aware of two functions that are in the VST3 standard and not 2.4--neither of those will effect this plug in at all. I'm sure there are others...so, YMMV.
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Post by donr on Sept 20, 2017 10:27:58 GMT -6
I habitually tuck some non-linear 'verb into the snare track not to make it sound '80's but to give the snare gravitas in the groove and to ensure the duration of the snare 2-and-4 fits and compliments the song tempo.
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Post by popmann on Sept 20, 2017 10:32:47 GMT -6
Popmann, you've mentioned something a few times I wasn't aware of. I'm not great at processing individual drum tracks, so I usually just use SD's Stereo mix. Am I losing quality by not using separate tracks for each drum? Its only in Apple's world (Drumkit Designer) that the multi output are literally different samples than stereo. However, I don't think you're ever going to get drum samples to sound like real drums if you're using presets and tweaking stuff inside the instrument. That I, IMO, why people keep buying drum libraries....when drum sampling has been mature for a LONG time. There's nothing new here in terms of the sampling other than MAYBE that head (re)tuning algorithm--which hasn't even been MENTIONED in this thread that I saw....
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 20, 2017 10:36:27 GMT -6
By presets, you mean for instance the sounds that come in packages like NY drums or Music City drums? Or do you mean the kits that come in Logic or the EZ Drummer packs? I don't completely understand.
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Post by swurveman on Sept 20, 2017 11:46:10 GMT -6
For you Cubase users: A guy at the purple place is saying that SD3 for Cubase only uses the 2.4 version.So, according to him alot of the nicefeature in SD3 won't work in Cubase. I questioned him about it and here was his response. What are you asking? I think that's bullshit. If it's using VST v2.4, that's Toontracks doing that, not Cubase. Cubase invented VST3 like they did 2.4. As to new features not working....that might be true, but WHAT features? I'm aware of two functions that are in the VST3 standard and not 2.4--neither of those will effect this plug in at all. I'm sure there are others...so, YMMV. I'm just pointing out information-or misinformation- that's out there. I own SD2. My main interest in SD3 is the tracker function. So, I am interested if that will work in Cubase 8 and above.
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Post by popmann on Sept 20, 2017 11:57:40 GMT -6
Everything you use in a preset. When you call up a (stock) preset, it includes all the individual mic balances and processing needed to mix that kit into your "stereo output".
When I say drum sampling has been mature for 15+ years--I mean the sampling. I mean, I was using BFD1's Albini expansion how long ago? Completely unprocessed....I rendered it to 12 tracks of audio, and mixed it just like Steve had recorded that kit....I'm mixing it with my (at the time) analog hardware and digital plug ins just like when someone sends me a recorded (real) kit.
If you want the "stereo output", you are 100% dependent on their internal mixing DSP. Their presets or how you tweak the internal mixer.
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Post by popmann on Sept 20, 2017 12:04:42 GMT -6
What are you asking? I think that's bullshit. If it's using VST v2.4, that's Toontracks doing that, not Cubase. Cubase invented VST3 like they did 2.4. As to new features not working....that might be true, but WHAT features? I'm aware of two functions that are in the VST3 standard and not 2.4--neither of those will effect this plug in at all. I'm sure there are others...so, YMMV. I'm just pointing out information-or misinformation- that's out there. I own SD2. My main interest in SD3 is the tracker function. So, I am interested if that will work in Cubase 8 and above. Tracker isn't real time. You have to literally point it to the FILES (not tracks, files) of the snare/kick, etc, you want triggered. It works on your machine outside of Cubase. I can't imagine why on earth it wouldn't work inside Cubase. ...but, ask Toontracks support.
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Post by swurveman on Sept 20, 2017 15:13:56 GMT -6
I'm just pointing out information-or misinformation- that's out there. I own SD2. My main interest in SD3 is the tracker function. So, I am interested if that will work in Cubase 8 and above. Tracker isn't real time. You have to literally point it to the FILES (not tracks, files) of the snare/kick, etc, you want triggered. It works on your machine outside of Cubase. I can't imagine why on earth it wouldn't work inside Cubase. ...but, ask Toontracks support. I emailed Toontrack and this is what they wrote to me about SD3 and Cubase: "We have not come across any issues regarding missing features using the SD3 as a VST plugin in Cubase speficially. SD3 will function as it should in any paid, full version of Cubase- as long as it is 64 bit. SD3 is only supported on 64 bit operating systems and 64 bit DAWs."
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 20, 2017 15:17:28 GMT -6
Just out of curiosity and sd3's problem with logic what do people think of addictive drums 2? I understand it works seamlessly with logic and has better quality drum samples ?
Thoughts ?
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Post by popmann on Sept 20, 2017 17:06:52 GMT -6
What "problem with Logic"?
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 20, 2017 17:30:23 GMT -6
ah, the HH problem you mentioned or did I misunderstand ?
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 20, 2017 17:36:02 GMT -6
In cdn $ sd3 is $420: maybe I'll just think about this
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