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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 18, 2017 13:09:52 GMT -6
Shadowamd, maybe it's the music style?
For my genre, Alt Country, Folk-Rock, Americana, Singer-Songwriter, the Massenberg drums seem like they'd be a godsend. I won't buy it for a few weeks though, I have other priorities.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 13:20:08 GMT -6
Shadowamd, maybe it's the music style? For my genre, Alt Country, Folk-Rock, Americana, Singer-Songwriter, the Massenberg drums seem like they'd be a godsend. I won't buy it for a few weeks though, I have other priorities. Maybe, I listened to the demo's on their website.. www.toontrack.com/product/superior-drummer-3/It's mainly for rock / metal but I'll be doing some acoustic rock as well. TBH it could be due to production values the one's with Abbey road sound "higher quality" but who knows what they've done to achieve that? I recently got Komplete 11 so I'll try it out, I mean for the price I'm going to buy it as SD2 is legacy now anyway.. Just not entirely convinced I'll use it.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 18, 2017 14:27:03 GMT -6
you know you can convert those Drummer regions to plain' ol General MIDI drum mapping, right? Dial in your midi performance with Drummer, then convert to GM, and load up SD3 also this: I'm not only aware of that, the environment is unnecessary--it's what I did initially, too, but you can do one of two things quicker--you can replace the DKD plug in on the denier track....or shift-opt drag to make aliases on the regions on a second track. You have the same issue with hats either way. Seems like if you use the alias method AND set DKD to "gm+mod wheel for hat control", it does ok, but I'm still finding it's mid wheel mapping (response curve)needs tweaking on the instrument. There's also a scriptor preset allowing some coarse remapping--where you can change that CC number. Which is why I said I'd buy this if it had a mode where it was intentional using the AIDs to map the hat to the same levels. I bet Apple engineers never abbreviated that during development. Both ways are to complicate its more simple.... You open a drummer track, and than you repalce logics drummer plug in with any other drum plug in sampler. Than you set the external drum sampler (SD or XLN or what ever you like) internal to Genral Midi and you can use logics drummer. Have fun....
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Post by popmann on Sept 18, 2017 15:03:02 GMT -6
I said that. You, too, are missing the part about CC control of the hat. If you hear binary hats.....that's a problem. GM offers three hats--open, closed, and foot. Logic's Drummer uses many in between that. Straight conversion to MIDI, be it by insertion of the other sampler or aliasing or Environment rerouting....will cause issues in the hat articulations translating. Now--you won't KNOW that unless you also have it playing DKD where it works as intended. Some beats it won't even matter--the binary open/closed is enough to not sound silly.
I can tell you that XLN will respond to CC1 by default, but you need to change it's sensitivity to the more sensitive mapping if you want it to play the hat as intended. I feel like BFD you had to invert the hat CC response? Anyway--you need to pay attention to that, else some of the grooves won't sound "as played".
....which is all I was suggesting--that if on top of having Massenberg recorded kits, they also plugged right into an LPX drummer track and were calibrated and mapped to simply GO by default, I would buy it. I appreciate everyone pitching out mapping ideas. I've got this working as fine as any MIDI translation EVER worked going from sound to sound....which is "ehh". It's better to use the room mics from Sound City or Abbey Road or Air--whatever, and leave the DKD direct mics. IMO. You get a large percentage of the sound improvement of the third party libraries, without the headaches of calibrating dynamics and ghost notes and hat articulations to the NNth degree.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 18, 2017 15:37:47 GMT -6
I said that. You, too, are missing the part about CC control of the hat. If you hear binary hats.....that's a problem. GM offers three hats--open, closed, and foot. Logic's Drummer uses many in between that. Straight conversion to MIDI, be it by insertion of the other sampler or aliasing or Environment rerouting....will cause issues in the hat articulations translating. Now--you won't KNOW that unless you also have it playing DKD where it works as intended. Some beats it won't even matter--the binary open/closed is enough to not sound silly. I can tell you that XLN will respond to CC1 by default, but you need to change it's sensitivity to the more sensitive mapping if you want it to play the hat as intended. I feel like BFD you had to invert the hat CC response? Anyway--you need to pay attention to that, else some of the grooves won't sound "as played". ....which is all I was suggesting--that if on top of having Massenberg recorded kits, they also plugged right into an LPX drummer track and were calibrated and mapped to simply GO by default, I would buy it. I appreciate everyone pitching out mapping ideas. I've got this working as fine as any MIDI translation EVER worked going from sound to sound....which is "ehh". It's better to use the room mics from Sound City or Abbey Road or Air--whatever, and leave the DKD direct mics. IMO. You get a large percentage of the sound improvement of the third party libraries, without the headaches of calibrating dynamics and ghost notes and hat articulations to the NNth degree. Sorry popmann it was long day but it was good for something you specified...cool info. Found this one.... www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=126403
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 18, 2017 15:40:34 GMT -6
@mr Holmes, so logic's drummer can simply be replaced by another drum program as long as it properly installed on your computer ?
Can you have best of both world's logic drummer as skin playing sd3 samples ?
Thx!
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 18, 2017 16:31:38 GMT -6
@mr Holmes, so logic's drummer can simply be replaced by another drum program as long as it properly installed on your computer ? Can you have best of both world's logic drummer as skin playing sd3 samples ? Thx! Yes you can, but read what popmann wrote... it wont play all HH articulations. I checked with XLN drums they show what is used and popmann is right GM is not using all the articualtions. I wonder myself why they dont write a mapping for DKD in Logic. Would make live easier for all of us. They already do it for AKAI etc... but not for LOGICS DKD. I wrote an E-Mail to XLN Audio I am keen to know what they answer. Sure they are pissed because they wont sell thier beat midi maps anymore.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 18, 2017 17:35:39 GMT -6
I've got the option to upgrade for $200.00 which is nothing really, but y'know what? I'm not digging it.. I gather it must just be me but it has that same old narrow slightly plasticy sound most of us has come to love or after years of working with metal bands (hate GRRR!).. Also when backing and forthing between Abbey Road, I'm not thinking yeah SD3 is soo much better. Is it just me? Need more input.. Looking forward to more clips. Wait - have you tried it? I wasn't aware there was a demo. Anyway, I can't express how much better I think it sounds than the NI stuff imo.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 18, 2017 17:37:10 GMT -6
Maybe I'll start a preset subforum or something.
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Post by lcr on Sept 19, 2017 6:51:14 GMT -6
Maybe I'll start a preset subforum or something. Thumbs up
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 19, 2017 8:44:52 GMT -6
So for XLN Adicitve Drums the Midi Mapping Problem with Logics DKD is solved. I wrote them and asked if they can help with this.
And they came back with a DKD MIDI MAP.
How cool is this service.
And BTW XLN Drums still sounds big and 3D and no fake on the Hats too. I think they are both very close SD3 and AD2.
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Post by popmann on Sept 19, 2017 9:25:30 GMT -6
So for XLN Adicitve Drums the Midi Mapping Problem with Logics DKD is solved. I wrote them and asked freindly if the can help with this. And they came back with a DKD MIDI MAP. How cool is this service. And BTW XLN Drums still sounds big and 3D too and no fake on the Hats. I think they are both very close. So, is this something now on their site, or something they sent you? If so, hook a brother up. Langsongs AT yahoo.com I ran the Online Installer and it said everything was up to date, so....it must be something they gave you?
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Post by ragan on Sept 19, 2017 9:26:03 GMT -6
I was just checking out the XLN stuff last night and was super impressed. With the drums but also with the keys. I have a free license to redeem and I think I'm gonna grab that upright.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 19, 2017 9:32:07 GMT -6
Addictive Drums was the only one I never really liked. I have AD2 and just can't get them to sit.
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Post by ragan on Sept 19, 2017 9:41:08 GMT -6
Addictive Drums was the only one I never really liked. I have AD2 and just can't get them to sit. Interesting. I have a good buddy that's way into virtual instruments (I'm not, at this point) who says he never gel'd with them either. What don't you like about them? Sonically, in the XLN videos, I don't hear anything less 'real' sounding than I do in the SD3 video.
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Post by popmann on Sept 19, 2017 9:43:27 GMT -6
The upright is the only one I'd care about on the keyboard side. FWIW. It's a sample of the same piano I own....promise they did a good job. If Synthology would sell their U5 (same piano different box) without having to buy a big $349 suite of upright pianos, I'd say by it instead....but, the XLN is really close, and can be bought for $35 when they run sales. I like their business model. Any time I"ve bought a big drum instrument--be it a hardware module in the day or a big collection/suite, I make a kit and use that for years until I retire it and move on. Usually swap a snare here and there.
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Post by ragan on Sept 19, 2017 9:53:21 GMT -6
The upright is the only one I'd care about on the keyboard side. FWIW. It's a sample of the same piano I own....promise they did a good job. If Synthology would sell their U5 (same piano different box) without having to buy a big $349 suite of upright pianos, I'd say by it instead....but, the XLN is really close, and can be bought for $35 when they run sales. I like their business model. Any time I"ve bought a big drum instrument--be it a hardware module in the day or a big collection/suite, I make a kit and use that for years until I retire it and move on. Usually swap a snare here and there. Yeah the upright was the standout to me on the demos. I have a free license to redeem. I've got a nice upright upstairs and I run a snake and track it often, but that's somewhat cumbersome and new baby girl in the house makes the times when I can be noisy upstairs at more of a premium.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 10:19:04 GMT -6
I've got the option to upgrade for $200.00 which is nothing really, but y'know what? I'm not digging it.. I gather it must just be me but it has that same old narrow slightly plasticy sound most of us has come to love or after years of working with metal bands (hate GRRR!).. Also when backing and forthing between Abbey Road, I'm not thinking yeah SD3 is soo much better. Is it just me? Need more input.. Looking forward to more clips. Wait - have you tried it? I wasn't aware there was a demo. Anyway, I can't express how much better I think it sounds than the NI stuff imo. I said a couple of posts backs I've listened to the demo's so far, also I do have SD2 with the same SDX's as I'll be using with SD3 so I doubt somehow it'll be night and day.. As far as drum VSTI's go I bet it will probably still remain to be the best out of the bunch, I've got SSD 4 / NI (60's and Studio) / Drumagog and of course SD is the choice of the lot, I again mentioned in my post the production of the NI demo's is better than the SD3 one's so in a mix I was preferring the Abbey road drums. Anway for me at least, as far as proper drum sounds go I get way better results from A) Mic'ing a kit or B) using my E-drum set (2Box).. From the demo's SD3 doesn't sound that much "superior" to SD2, which is fine but I was expecing more from it. Although who am I kidding? It takes way too much effort to do it properly and I'll end up using SD..
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 19, 2017 11:14:51 GMT -6
Addictive Drums was the only one I never really liked. I have AD2 and just can't get them to sit. To my ears they sit well in a lot of my songs. But to say it again even the stock DKD drums in Logic can sound great if you mix them right. Here is the DKD Brooklyn Kit Solo... I like it a lot... https%3A//soundcloud.com/andreasoberholz/dkd-brooklyn-dkWe are spoiled with options these days.... Back to making music with the gear.... Cheers Holmes
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 19, 2017 12:00:57 GMT -6
OK...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 12:01:53 GMT -6
That AD2 kit sounds good, I've had another listen through on some proper "mixing" headphones as my studio feels like it's too far away .. The best sounding kit I've come across so far is the White kit from Abbey Road Modern Drummer which is of course the only one I don't have..! One of the issues with me is I've spent so long with SD / EZdrummer that I can't seem to get past it's quirks that a lot of people probably do not care about. Like it's signature cymbal bow which is metaphorically like someone walking up and down a ladder or grass only flowing in two directions back and forth.. No matter what you do they always sound somewhat recessed and a little dull, when you try to up the room mic's to pad it out you just end up drowning clarity out of other things which you then have to re-tweak your mix to get it to sit right. Although the Toontrack stuff is generally more "natural" sounding than most other kits I've ever heard, when listening to the AD drums they were far more "in your face" and had a width to them.. The one mr holmes posted doesn't seem to suffer the same issues as the demo's on their site which makes them sound a little fake.. The Toontrack sample libraries are getting ridiculous in size and getting it shipped out on an SSD is extra $200.00, like I have the progressive foundary (which is nearly 80GB's to download) and then there's the core library which is massive as well. I think it's simple as this for me, I'll get Modern Drummer and if I can't gel with it I'll buy the upgrade.. Interesting thread though, made me think about it .
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 19, 2017 18:57:50 GMT -6
I think most of the modern drum libraries sound great we are talking taste here. It just jumped into my ears how well Logics-DKD treats the hats when popmann pointed me to listen for it. They play a lot of variations for open hats... and it sounds good to me. If I would have had Logics-DKD before I bought AD2 I am sure I may would have skipped AD2. There are so many diffrent drum sosunds in Logics DKD which I can mix to taste that the rest of my active carear is too short to use them all. If you mix DKD with some nice verbs and nice EQ some paralell compression you get a great theree dimensional drum kit out of it. Yes you have to fight a little bit to make them sound great.
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Post by popmann on Sept 19, 2017 19:29:19 GMT -6
Switch to the Producer Kits. There are actually only 6 kits in DKD. All those named kits are just mix and match presets of the dumbed down versions. The Producer Kits not only sound better, but enable you to down the kick IN mic....turn the room mics off and add a third party....OR crush the room mics and the "bleed" tracks if you want it to sound "tougher".
I think muting Apple's room mics and adding a third party nice room gets you 95% of the way to the third party sound anyway. Rooms are god for me in drum tone. Apple's sound like they generated them with IRs, honestly. They're way too "nice and even" sounding to be actual room mics.
Anyway--to get this back to the subject--this new suite is probably the best "drum reverb" for mixing real drums EVER....I thought about that when I saw how well it did the MIDI replacement--and it occurred to me that there are 11.1 mics up in the room--so, you really can choose whatever set of room mics sound best for the REAL kit. I'd love to have it. I think it would have to get behind Keyscape on my lusting list for the next computer system.
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Post by ragan on Sept 19, 2017 19:45:45 GMT -6
Switch to the Producer Kits. There are actually only 6 kits in DKD. All those named kits are just mix and match presets of the dumbed down versions. The Producer Kits not only sound better, but enable you to down the kick IN mic....turn the room mics off and add a third party....OR crush the room mics and the "bleed" tracks if you want it to sound "tougher". I think muting Apple's room mics and adding a third party nice room gets you 95% of the way to the third party sound anyway. Rooms are god for me in drum tone. Apple's sound like they generated them with IRs, honestly. They're way too "nice and even" sounding to be actual room mics. Anyway--to get this back to the subject--this new suite is probably the best "drum reverb" for mixing real drums EVER....I thought about that when I saw how well it did the MIDI replacement--and it occurred to me that there are 11.1 mics up in the room--so, you really can choose whatever set of room mics sound best for the REAL kit. I'd love to have it. I think it would have to get behind Keyscape on my lusting list for the next computer system. I hadn't thought of that application for VI drums. Just using the rooms. Interesting.
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Post by popmann on Sept 19, 2017 21:21:57 GMT -6
I haven't mixed a record with (significant) reverb on the drums in many years. I usually send a little of the overheads to my "Studio A" type reverb that most everything gets as a binder....but, the days of specific reverbs to shape a snare or toms are over--I just add the Air Studios room mics and manipulate them like I would....it's quicker AND better sounding--how often does THAT happen?
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