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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2017 13:41:09 GMT -6
Adam, you did that for you, and it was the right thing to do. It was a classy move. That kind of dedication is something people will pick up on unconsciously, and it will do you good eventually. Just say to yourself you paid it froward. It was classy. But it's not a good way to stay in business. Especially if it is a constant thing that happens on every project. If it is professionals you're dealing with this does not happen. Or actually, it happens to a degree, but no one asks you to do it for "free".
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Post by winetree on Aug 14, 2017 13:57:31 GMT -6
When I want someone to work on one of my houses or one of my muscle cars, I can't get them to work on them for free. Why should we?
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 14, 2017 14:17:25 GMT -6
Adam, you did that for you, and it was the right thing to do. It was a classy move. That kind of dedication is something people will pick up on unconsciously, and it will do you good eventually. Just say to yourself you paid it froward. Absolutely true Martin! Myself was at the forefront of my mind. And now, I know myself a little better. Its just really tough when bands want you to estimate the time needed, and then put a brick-wall on it, while there is no problem pole-vaulting over it when needed.
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 14, 2017 14:21:53 GMT -6
Adam, you did that for you, and it was the right thing to do. It was a classy move. That kind of dedication is something people will pick up on unconsciously, and it will do you good eventually. Just say to yourself you paid it froward. It was classy. But it's not a good way to stay in business. Especially if it is a constant thing that happens on every project. If it is professionals you're dealing with this does not happen. Or actually, it happens to a degree, but no one asks you to do it for "free". Very true Bill. Staying in business is another thread probably. Most of my clients aren't pro's. The pro's do handle themselves well. Although, I can name a few who don't like to pay their bills. Shit happens. Like when they book and turns out they can't make the session. A pro will still paypal me for the time. And I am happy to accommodate another session at a later time.
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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2017 14:27:48 GMT -6
Yup. When non-pro's don't show up for a session and mention that they didn't USE the time they booked - and that they will rebook in the future, I have to explain that I can never reclaim that day again - it's lost and gone forever. When pro's don't show up, they tend to understand that, although it's sometimes still an effort to get paid for it. The smart thing is to weed out those clients and not work with them. It does take an effort to do that, and some trial and error, and bent ego's.
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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2017 14:29:08 GMT -6
Its just really tough when bands want you to estimate the time needed, and then put a brick-wall on it, while there is no problem pole-vaulting over it when needed. Truer words have not been spoken.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2017 14:31:31 GMT -6
I can name a few who don't like to pay their bills. Shit happens. Like when they book and turns out they can't make the session. A pro will still paypal me for the time. And I am happy to accommodate another session at a later time. One word: DEPOSIT
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 14, 2017 14:44:26 GMT -6
^Deposits are fine Doug. But this has to do with an unknown amount of time, really. There is no way to know, other than [as Martin rightfully pointed out] how long it will take to become happy with the work. I can only estimate it. They hold me to that. But Mixing takes a lot of time. Clients don't know, so they can't budget for it. Even I don't know. No one is prepared to be unhappy.
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 14, 2017 14:46:14 GMT -6
Moral of the story is that it certainly allows me to understand how much time I need to do my best work.
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Post by donr on Aug 14, 2017 14:54:13 GMT -6
Warmth and crispness. That kinda says it all. Yeah! Fresh out of the oven goodness. Yum!
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Post by donr on Aug 14, 2017 15:31:48 GMT -6
Great thread about a depressing reality. I'm so fortunate I can still sing and play today, people still come to see me, and I make a good chunk of income off stuff created decades ago.
Still, I'd be hard pressed to pay a studio today what I'd need to make a decent record 100% there. I would track basics (drums) somewhere, and get some genius to mix after overdubbing at home. Not like the old days.
BOC did the 'Mirrors' record with Tom Werman. It may not be the most "BOC-like" record we did, but Tom was a pro and knew what he was doing. Kudo's to engineer Gary Ladinsky for the sound of the record.
I'm thinking about trying Billy Decker to mix something.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2017 16:06:38 GMT -6
Damn, this is a tough one.... I had a group of guys in my place recently, they were a 4 piece band, vocals/ac.gtr, drums, e-bass, e-gtr, I recorded 11 songs with them all playing together for basics. In one 8 hour session. Cost them $400 Next Session: Overdubs. Happy Happy e-Guitars, all the over the place. Oh yea, Re-do the Vocals and Acoustics as well. 5 Hours $250 Next Session: Attended Mixing of the Album. Mix down 11 songs, averaging 45mins-1.5 hours per song. Sounding pretty good. Good enough to get Bar gigs with. Since there was no more budget for external Mastering, I offered to do it myself, without charging them. End result, Album sounded final and good for the time we spent. $400 Next Session: Un Attended Mastering. About 2-3 hours. Tried not to ruin it. $0 2-weeks later..... long story short, "Adam, we need a many revisions to these songs, here is what we need" [.....I can't even begin to explain this] $0 After they let all their friends listen to the album, they had too much feedback. Which caused them to change their minds about the way the songs sat. $0 There were too many quibbles for my taste, [and for the time we had spent, I think their expectations were quite FAR for what we were doing] I think the very first time you recall and tweak something, its simply not a mix anymore. You gotta tweak another tweak just to make the tweak. So the amount of tweaks they required, simply sounded horrible to my ears [they had been dictated by others in car stereos or bose pills or whatever].. Whilst, I then and now, refuse to put my name on a "Tweaked" version of a Mix, so I proceeded to tell them I would listen to the problems they are having with the work WE BOTH did. They chalked it up to their "none-experience" in the studio. I told them I could do recalls, but would need to be paid for my time. Then they returned with the sales-pitch to "sell me" in completing the album for them properly and that it would be in my best interest to do so. Alright. So, what I did was pretty much this. I proceeded to listen to the problems and went into the studio, mixing each and every song from the top of the quality control ladder. This time, unattended: I spent nearly 2-3 hours on each mix, sculpting, carving, cultivating, curating all their concerns. About 14 hours later, their album was finished. $0 After about 20 hours, it was Mastered. $0 No Recalls, No problems. Estimated Value around $1000 Have not yet got any more work from their record, Cheers and coffee! Everybody has a studio so everybody is an expert, this is why as a "professional" I try not to comment on the work of others , the golden rule!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2017 16:07:32 GMT -6
When I want someone to work on one of my houses or one of my muscle cars, I can't get them to work on them for free. Why should we? Exposure it's Greek for leave your ass hanging out!
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Post by viciousbliss on Aug 14, 2017 20:49:06 GMT -6
Great thread about a depressing reality. I'm so fortunate I can still sing and play today, people still come to see me, and I make a good chunk of income off stuff created decades ago. Still, I'd be hard pressed to pay a studio today what I'd need to make a decent record 100% there. I would track basics (drums) somewhere, and get some genius to mix after overdubbing at home. Not like the old days. BOC did the 'Mirrors' record with Tom Werman. It may not be the most "BOC-like" record we did, but Tom was a pro and knew what he was doing. Kudo's to engineer Gary Ladinsky for the sound of the record. I'm thinking about trying Billy Decker to mix something. Wow! A BOC member here? Huge fan here, especially of Fire, Revolution, and Club Ninja. I should go back and listen to Mirrors. These days I spend so much time mixing that I often forget to listen to stuff for fun. Billy Decker's stuff seemed to be about as good as it gets for modern production with the styles he does. I could type a novel about how much I like BOC. If there's a way to make recordings that sound as good as your classics using a computer, I hope I find it. The best thing I can say is thanks for the music, it's been and still is a real inspiration. Cheap Trick I think was another band that ended up complaining about Werman. I've heard the re-recordings they did with Albini and to me, they just don't work with that engineering style. It's true that a lot of bands like to go DIY and then look for clients. There's too much of that too. Not a lot of those guys ended up with strong brands. When I shopped around studio websites, I never really saw any evidence that the experience would work. The websites are mostly just pictures of hardware and lists of hardware with a few plugins thrown in. There's a lot of software lists that feature Waves Mercury as pretty much the only thing, so I suspect they just pirated that and considered their software collection to be complete. Usually that was with studios that only had a few cheap pieces of hardware. There's never any information as to how long they took to get a mix done. If there was, it was extremely brief and limited to just one or two studios. On my prior site, I tried to communicate exactly what I knew how to pull off and how long it would take to do. I offered free mixes in the event that I decided to test a new plugin or technique on their song. They wouldn't necessarily be involved in the process, but I offered the result free. Do potential clients care about this stuff? Most probably don't bother to read anything in an ad or on a site. The guy who opened up a few miles from me using mostly Samson and Behringer gear and offering all this free time in exchange for Facebook likes decided to close up shop and setup a GoFundMe to raise funds for studio opening costs. Maybe the neighborhood made him shut down. After several months, not one donation has come in. Giving away time may only be a benefit if the song you mix ends up becoming popular and no one else remixes what becomes the official version. Aren't a lot of these areas like LA and Nashville saturated? To cut through there I imagine you'd really need an edge. Advertising mainly. Branding is always going to be the most important thing. Maybe figure out who to give surveys to and try to find out what the market wants? Pricing often is part of the brand. I may have mentioned some time ago about the Gibson guitars that were priced at $300 and didn't sell. And then they were rebranded with a $3000 price tag and sold majorly. It's probably better to have a strong brand and a decent rate that doesn't fetch lowball clients instead of an undefined brand that charges low and makes a few hundred bucks a year. The strong brand may eventually land something worthwhile.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 15, 2017 7:15:22 GMT -6
When I've worked with beginners, talented amateurs, and hobbyists, I've found that you need to be in the same room, otherwise they have no clue why their vocal done with an "expensive" $300 mic doesn't sound like the superstar they're emulating's vocal.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 15, 2017 8:34:51 GMT -6
Great thread about a depressing reality. I'm so fortunate I can still sing and play today, people still come to see me, and I make a good chunk of income off stuff created decades ago. Still, I'd be hard pressed to pay a studio today what I'd need to make a decent record 100% there. I would track basics (drums) somewhere, and get some genius to mix after overdubbing at home. Not like the old days. BOC did the 'Mirrors' record with Tom Werman. It may not be the most "BOC-like" record we did, but Tom was a pro and knew what he was doing. Kudo's to engineer Gary Ladinsky for the sound of the record. I'm thinking about trying Billy Decker to mix something. But studios are SOOO much cheaper than they were even 5 years ago. Hell, and to track with someone like you, you could probably name your price. I bet you could get a fantastic studio for $500 a day.
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Post by sean on Aug 15, 2017 11:06:42 GMT -6
In my experience, the less I'm getting paid, the more difficult the job/client. I wanna hear it so bad JK! No truer words have been spoken
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 15, 2017 12:12:02 GMT -6
I am surprised that nobody has made a video that kind of shows what goes into making/mixing a track that sounds like the best bands out there and is under five minutes in length. You'd think we'd be able to just send this video to potential clients that are expecting us to mix their crap that they recorded in their bedroom so they know what to expect when they see that process that Aerosmith use to record their stuff and mix their stuff and why their stuff sounds as good as it does. Sort of a "if you didn't do what these guys did don't expect your record to sound like their record" disclaimer video...
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Post by svart on Aug 15, 2017 12:55:52 GMT -6
I am surprised that nobody has made a video that kind of shows what goes into making/mixing a track that sounds like the best bands out there and is under five minutes in length. You'd think we'd be able to just send this video to potential clients that are expecting us to mix their crap that they recorded in their bedroom so they know what to expect when they see that process that Aerosmith use to record their stuff and mix their stuff and why their stuff sounds as good as it does. Sort of a "if you didn't do what these guys did don't expect your record to sound like their record" disclaimer video... If such a video were to even be feasible, most clients would simply ignore it anyway. They all believe they are perfect and that they'll be the ones who can pop out the cheapest but best album. I've told plenty of bands how it might take more than a "few hours" to record a handful of songs and then mix them. They still believe they can suddenly, and magically, produce perfect takes through pure willpower and finish a whole record in a day. It's like the 5 stages of grief. 1. Denial.. "One more take is all we need, I swear!" 2. Anger.. "Well, we can do it at practice all the time, so it must be something * you're* doing that's messing us up.." 3. Barganing.. "Well, maybe *you* can do some editing and fix all these sections so we don't have to do them again" 4. Depression.. "But we can't come back, we just don't have the money to do more than a couple hours time!" 5. Acceptance.. "I guess we'll have to practice it some more and come back"
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 15, 2017 13:07:04 GMT -6
Perhaps you might look into producing John. You have the technical knowledge, the musical knowledge, and experience. I now that isn't any easier than what you're doing now, but it doesn't have an expiration date, if you know what I mean.
I was just reading about The War On Drugs yesterday, Adam Granduciel is 38, probably the oldest guy in rock to make it in decades, and I'm considerably older than that. It made me realize I have to accept and learn to enjoy less than my original dream. I love the idea of a career like John Hiatt. He's not a household name, but major artists cover his songs, and he gets to play when he feels like it at reasonably nice places. If I could put 250-500 people in a club in 50 cities, I'd be satisfied.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 15, 2017 20:37:24 GMT -6
I mean, no offense meant to John or anyone else who picks up random internet business, but who chooses a random mixer off the internet with no human connection or base of reference? Music is ALL ABOUT collaboration and like mindedness. Those kinds of relationships take months if not years to nurture and feel out. I can't find that on the internet unless I develop it over several projects, and even then, there's a physical disconnect. Maybe that's the way of the future, but for me, it tells me far more about the people LOOKING for a mix engineer than their music does. They are ill connected with others of like vision, and are basically searching for someone to make them what they are not. That's a warning sign for me. If I know someone whose project is ready to mix, I can find them a dozen mix engineers in 5 minutes who are amazing. No need to pick someone with no personal reference who is off the internet. "Why" are they on the internet looking for collaborators would be my first question for them. Musical introductions are made by humans for humans and are nurtured over time. There are plenty of un-connected people around the world. Not everyone has made connections in the major music centers...and that's usually where you find the people that really know how to do this stuff. So, I generally think this is a good idea...just not sure I have the temperament for it. I dunno... If somebody does have what it takes to go out and at least make a few rudimentary connections do they have any business expecting to do anything in the business? Before I left Oklahoma I'd already done one sound gig for Earl Scruggs and jammed half the night with Vassar Clements. I'd been in Cal for maybe 3 months when I landed a gig playing bass for Skip Spence (yes, the stories about him are mostly true, but that's beside the point) through a random connection with a DJ. A few months later I had an apprenticve tech job at a major service facility. If you don't go out and work for yourself why the hell should you expect anybody else to give a damn? And I'm not even going to go into the people who expect the engineer to clean up after the fact that they can't be arsed to bother learning to sing and play on a semi-reasonable level. Young people have their whole life to go out and make connections - they have no right to expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. NOW, OFF THE DAMN LAWN!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 15, 2017 20:51:47 GMT -6
Perhaps you might look into producing John. You have the technical knowledge, the musical knowledge, and experience. I now that isn't any easier than what you're doing now, but it doesn't have an expiration date, if you know what I mean. I was just reading about The War On Drugs yesterday, Adam Granduciel is 38, probably the oldest guy in rock to make it in decades, and I'm considerably older than that. It made me realize I have to accept and learn to enjoy less than my original dream. I love the idea of a career like John Hiatt. He's not a household name, but major artists cover his songs, and he gets to play when he feels like it at reasonably nice places. If I could put 250-500 people in a club in 50 cities, I'd be satisfied. Hiatt is a know quantity in markets with strong progressive radio Madison, Austin, Boulder etc. and tours constantly, his song writing success came in the days when people still paid for music! Seen him at least 12 times and yeah he was a client!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 15, 2017 21:01:25 GMT -6
On JE's post in the old days you had to work your way up , that involved developing the skill to brush off tantrums and criticism. I'm going to shock you and say for many it was just a job, most of us no part of a job is eating the crap of bosses clients and coworkers. It's part of why they pay you. AE's were not treated as artists, but employees. I think that has gotten lost as we morphed into eng/ prod. suddenly we were romanticized.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 15, 2017 21:05:19 GMT -6
^Deposits are fine Doug. But this has to do with an unknown amount of time, really. There is no way to know, other than [as Martin rightfully pointed out] how long it will take to become happy with the work. I can only estimate it. They hold me to that. But Mixing takes a lot of time. Clients don't know, so they can't budget for it. Even I don't know. No one is prepared to be unhappy. Really? They give you a deposit for X amount of time. They use X amount of time. It's time for another deposit. If they don't have it they can go back to their jobs tending bar, flipping burgers, driving for Uber, or pimping gear to newbies until they do. Repeat as necessary. You don't deal with "unknown amounts of time", you break it into known increments. If they don't want to deal on a reasonably professional basis, let them go deal with Joe Blow's cousin with the bedroom studio.
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Post by wiz on Aug 15, 2017 21:33:28 GMT -6
Perhaps you might look into producing John. You have the technical knowledge, the musical knowledge, and experience. I now that isn't any easier than what you're doing now, but it doesn't have an expiration date, if you know what I mean. I was just reading about The War On Drugs yesterday, Adam Granduciel is 38, probably the oldest guy in rock to make it in decades, and I'm considerably older than that. It made me realize I have to accept and learn to enjoy less than my original dream. I love the idea of a career like John Hiatt. He's not a household name, but major artists cover his songs, and he gets to play when he feels like it at reasonably nice places. If I could put 250-500 people in a club in 50 cities, I'd be satisfied. Hiatt is a know quantity in markets with strong progressive radio Madison, Austin, Boulder etc. and tours constantly, his song writing success came in the days when people still paid for music! Seen him at least 12 times and yeah he was a client! One of my MAJOR influences.... that song Icy Blue Heart is the pinnacle of lyrics for me "she came on to him, like a slow moving cold front, his beer was warmer than the look in her eyes....." cheers Wiz
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