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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 20:32:04 GMT -6
I don't know how guys even manage to get small mixing businesses set up these days. When I was a 'yoot' back around the Magna Carta, there was a 4-track studio on every corner of any reasonably sized town. The owner had a few decent mics, a fair room, and scads of experience in the room. It wasn't a glorious existence, but there was a steady line of people booking a day or two. The 90's marked the death-knell for those studios. Setting up an Internet mixing service is a way of trying to extend the life of a business model that's dead. I suspect you've figured this out with these recent experiences. It's a race to the bottom and there are far too many people willing to take unfair advantage of your good will.
But let me put a bug in your ear if you decide to go looking for a 'real job'. Think about finding work within the industry. That might be repping a guitar line or working in marketing for a mic manufacturer. Or there might be somebody looking for a demo demon. Most of the guys I see in trade show booths are people who have histories that aren't real different from yours. They know their stuff, have long industry histories and love talking to folks. They know how to track, how to mix, and how to help other people get up to speed. Nearly every demo you ever saw at NAMM or AES was mixed by the guy sitting on the stage.
Except for the very high end, musicians think--rightly or wrongly--they can drop a couple of $K and mix like Bob O or Geoff Emerick. That's probably not going to change. But you might still be able to use your experience to raise the state of their art. I don't think you'll need to put on a vest and tell people where to find the machine screws.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 13, 2017 20:48:29 GMT -6
Race to the bottom is an excellent way to put it.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 13, 2017 21:05:16 GMT -6
I don't know how guys even manage to get small mixing businesses set up these days. When I was a 'yoot' back around the Magna Carta, there was a 4-track studio on every corner of any reasonably sized town. The owner had a few decent mics, a fair room, and scads of experience in the room. It wasn't a glorious existence, but there was a steady line of people booking a day or two. The 90's marked the death-knell for those studios. Setting up an Internet mixing service is a way of trying to extend the life of a business model that's dead. I suspect you've figured this out with these recent experiences. It's a race to the bottom and there are far too many people willing to take unfair advantage of your good will. But let me put a bug in your ear if you decide to go looking for a 'real job'. Think about finding work within the industry. That might be repping a guitar line or working in marketing for a mic manufacturer. Or there might be somebody looking for a demo demon. Most of the guys I see in trade show booths are people who have histories that aren't real different from yours. They know their stuff, have long industry histories and love talking to folks. They know how to track, how to mix, and how to help other people get up to speed. Nearly every demo you ever saw at NAMM or AES was mixed by the guy sitting on the stage. Except for the very high end, musicians think--rightly or wrongly--they can drop a couple of $K and mix like Bob O or Geoff Emerick. That's probably not going to change. But you might still be able to use your experience to raise the state of their art. I don't think you'll need to put on a vest and tell people where to find the machine screws. Word of mouth as somebody who would "save the guy who spent his wad at GC on good but not the right gear & was over his head" Being willing to rent/ loan a pre & or mic that would fit and spend time talking the client through getting useable tracks. Also being the guy who could walk you through using your board over the phone. Really just doing what I did as a gearpimp, just now I can say no !
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Post by viciousbliss on Aug 13, 2017 22:52:54 GMT -6
There are definitely bone-headed mixers out there too. The guy we hired didn't really accept any feedback from us. I asked if the snare could have a bit more pop and his reply was "I think it sounds killer". The mic used on it was a 57, I believe. He didn't explain to us about the mics or anything. Charged the full rate even after his assistant quit and other mishaps. Didn't even have the home studio setup before we got there. I'm sure if I had coughed up the dough for Steve Albini instead, his stuff would all be setup. And he is very affordable. The other engineers at his studio weren't charging much more than this college student from CL who was nickel and diming us. The studios around here who charge rates of $60 or less keep staying in business. Who knows how well they're doing. I notice they give everyone the same bare bones production. I'd be surprised if these local guys had in-depth knowledge of much. The clients probably come in, go into the chain the engineer knows will get a competent result in minimal time, pay a couple hundred bucks and that's that. No one can really expect intricate production with a minimal budget, especially if they're not good players. Pro Tools and Autotune with their mythical status have created the expectation that horrible musicians can be made to have perfect pitch and timing with the click of a magic button. That comes from a lot of ignorant and famous musicians who really believe that. I don't know, I've never found Autotune 8's or Wavestune's graphical modes to be very intuitive. AT8's Flextune can be beneficial. But I find it easier to make someone sound more in tune using compressors, delays, saturators, eqs, and limiters.
A good selling point could be the ability to use 88/96. I've discussed it enough with Andy from Cytomic to know it's a legit thing that should be brought up to clients. But the cpu costs, I don't think most cpus are up to the task unless you're using all MCDSP or Waves Ren stuff as opposed to Satin, Kramer Tape, Acustica, NLS, CLA Sig Series, and other more cpu demanding plugins. Maybe these Ryzen 7s could run 70ish stereo Kramers in most DAWs, especially if overclocked and at a 1024 buffer. I know there's a guy who got something like 124 Kramers going in Reaper. Some of the studios around here are running Windows XP with old versions of Pro Tools. I would guess they're using a lot of plugins, but maybe I'm wrong and it's 100% hardware and Pro Tools is just the tape machine substitute. Either way, if someone has the capability to run big ITB sessions at 88/96, I don't see how that couldn't help make them more competitive.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 14, 2017 5:16:19 GMT -6
There are definitely bone-headed mixers out there too. The guy we hired didn't really accept any feedback from us. I asked if the snare could have a bit more pop and his reply was "I think it sounds killer". The mic used on it was a 57, I believe. He didn't explain to us about the mics or anything. Charged the full rate even after his assistant quit and other mishaps. Didn't even have the home studio setup before we got there. I'm sure if I had coughed up the dough for Steve Albini instead, his stuff would all be setup. And he is very affordable. The other engineers at his studio weren't charging much more than this college student from CL who was nickel and diming us. The studios around here who charge rates of $60 or less keep staying in business. Who knows how well they're doing. I notice they give everyone the same bare bones production. I'd be surprised if these local guys had in-depth knowledge of much. The clients probably come in, go into the chain the engineer knows will get a competent result in minimal time, pay a couple hundred bucks and that's that. No one can really expect intricate production with a minimal budget, especially if they're not good players. Pro Tools and Autotune with their mythical status have created the expectation that horrible musicians can be made to have perfect pitch and timing with the click of a magic button. That comes from a lot of ignorant and famous musicians who really believe that. I don't know, I've never found Autotune 8's or Wavestune's graphical modes to be very intuitive. AT8's Flextune can be beneficial. But I find it easier to make someone sound more in tune using compressors, delays, saturators, eqs, and limiters. A good selling point could be the ability to use 88/96. I've discussed it enough with Andy from Cytomic to know it's a legit thing that should be brought up to clients. But the cpu costs, I don't think most cpus are up to the task unless you're using all MCDSP or Waves Ren stuff as opposed to Satin, Kramer Tape, Acustica, NLS, CLA Sig Series, and other more cpu demanding plugins. Maybe these Ryzen 7s could run 70ish stereo Kramers in most DAWs, especially if overclocked and at a 1024 buffer. I know there's a guy who got something like 124 Kramers going in Reaper. Some of the studios around here are running Windows XP with old versions of Pro Tools. I would guess they're using a lot of plugins, but maybe I'm wrong and it's 100% hardware and Pro Tools is just the tape machine substitute. Either way, if someone has the capability to run big ITB sessions at 88/96, I don't see how that couldn't help make them more competitive. Shit smells like shit no matter what sample rate you use.
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Post by svart on Aug 14, 2017 8:05:02 GMT -6
So many clients relate the horrible experiences they've had at other places This is what I see as a driving force behind the home/self studio revolution. Trying to talk bands into coming to my studio (lets face it, that's what studio marketing IS these days..) I always run into bands who give me the "we've had bad experiences with studios before, that's why we're doing it ourselves" excuse as to why they won't use professional studios. But it turns out that more often than not their "bad experience" was some home-studio with a student in FullSail or ArtInstitute.. And usually free/cheap. So it's circular logic. They used cheap/free services of someone who doesn't know what they are doing, and now use that as an excuse to avoid paying someone who might know what they are doing because they're afraid to spend the money to get mediocre results.. But they've never really used a professional studio, they've just been hoodwinked by someone who claimed to be "professional". It's impossible to talk sense into someone like that because the more you try, the more you come off as the "greedy" studio owner who just wants to "take advantage" of a band and you fall directly into their pre-conceived notion of what the predatory music industry is. Honestly, I'm with John.. I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't just start packing it up at this point.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2017 8:12:25 GMT -6
One thing was definitely true: in the era I had a yellowpages listing, no business came from it. Handing out biz cards was like handing out steaming turds, people recoiled from them. Bands found studios every other possible way. Seems to go with the common self-defeatist musician approach.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2017 8:23:02 GMT -6
There are definitely bone-headed mixers out there too. The guy we hired didn't really accept any feedback from us. I asked if the snare could have a bit more pop and his reply was "I think it sounds killer". The mic used on it was a 57, I believe. He didn't explain to us about the mics or anything. Charged the full rate even after his assistant quit and other mishaps. Didn't even have the home studio setup before we got there. I'm sure if I had coughed up the dough for Steve Albini instead, his stuff would all be setup. And he is very affordable. The other engineers at his studio weren't charging much more than this college student from CL who was nickel and diming us. The studios around here who charge rates of $60 or less keep staying in business. Who knows how well they're doing. I notice they give everyone the same bare bones production. I'd be surprised if these local guys had in-depth knowledge of much. The clients probably come in, go into the chain the engineer knows will get a competent result in minimal time, pay a couple hundred bucks and that's that. No one can really expect intricate production with a minimal budget, especially if they're not good players. Pro Tools and Autotune with their mythical status have created the expectation that horrible musicians can be made to have perfect pitch and timing with the click of a magic button. That comes from a lot of ignorant and famous musicians who really believe that. I don't know, I've never found Autotune 8's or Wavestune's graphical modes to be very intuitive. AT8's Flextune can be beneficial. But I find it easier to make someone sound more in tune using compressors, delays, saturators, eqs, and limiters. A good selling point could be the ability to use 88/96. I've discussed it enough with Andy from Cytomic to know it's a legit thing that should be brought up to clients. But the cpu costs, I don't think most cpus are up to the task unless you're using all MCDSP or Waves Ren stuff as opposed to Satin, Kramer Tape, Acustica, NLS, CLA Sig Series, and other more cpu demanding plugins. Maybe these Ryzen 7s could run 70ish stereo Kramers in most DAWs, especially if overclocked and at a 1024 buffer. I know there's a guy who got something like 124 Kramers going in Reaper. Some of the studios around here are running Windows XP with old versions of Pro Tools. I would guess they're using a lot of plugins, but maybe I'm wrong and it's 100% hardware and Pro Tools is just the tape machine substitute. Either way, if someone has the capability to run big ITB sessions at 88/96, I don't see how that couldn't help make them more competitive. Yea but with Albini the studio would be set up but he might still be at the card game!
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Post by svart on Aug 14, 2017 8:34:03 GMT -6
One thing was definitely true: in the era I had a yellowpages listing, no business came from it. Handing out biz cards was like handing out steaming turds, people recoiled from them. Bands found studios every other possible way. Seems to go with the common self-defeatist musician approach. Holy shit, that's exactly my findings. Everyone is like "go to shows and talk to the bands!" but when I do, they seem horrified that I'm soliciting them at their show like some kind of ambulance chasing lawyer. Handing them business cards usually ends up with finding them on the floor of the venue later. Direct emailing/PM'ing seems to get a similar response of either a cold-shoulder reply or no reply at all. Which is strange because those same bands might post something on FB about wanting to know about where to go record.. But it seems that they only want their friend's suggestions. If you reply to their message directly you rarely get a response.. But if one of their friends replies with a link to your studio, then all of a sudden you'll get an inquiry. That inquiry usually starts with "how much to ____".. So I can only surmise that the only significant way for folks to run a studio business is by word-of-mouth, but in the era of folks recording themselves, word-of-mouth is becoming an increasingly rare thing. That and EVERY band that records themselves always tries to open their own "studio" to the public as well, so every band that goes DIY also becomes another competitor, as well as becoming another potential studio that ruins someone else's work and turns more artists into ones that "record themselves" and then open their own studio, etc.. It's an exponential increase in shitty production that only serves to raise the noise floor around better studios and create more animosity in the scene between bands and studios in general. I know folks will say that whole "your work will speak for itself" but that's simply not true when you have hundreds of studios popping up every year and each one potentially taking just one client away from you and turning them into jaded artists who end up fearing and hating "studios" afterwards.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2017 8:41:41 GMT -6
It did before streaming became the norm, now know one has any idea you worked on anything.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 14, 2017 9:05:53 GMT -6
For those of you trying to get work, but from people who are afraid to pay for a studio...
Is it worth a day of work for you to offer your services free of charge for 1 day? Just say, look - my rate is $xxx for a day. Come and work with me for a day. If you like what we did, and would like to continue to work with me, you can pay for today and we can book some future dates.
If you don't like what we did, No hurt feelings, but I'm not going to give you the files. They will be deleted and we can both go on our merry way.
I bet you at least get paid for the day because the band will want to have their files no matter what. And at the same time you get to hone in your craft even further.
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Post by svart on Aug 14, 2017 9:20:27 GMT -6
For those of you trying to get work, but from people who are afraid to pay for a studio... Is it worth a day of work for you to offer your services free of charge for 1 day? Just say, look - my rate is $xxx for a day. Come and work with me for a day. If you like what we did, and would like to continue to work with me, you can pay for today and we can book some future dates. If you don't like what we did, No hurt feelings, but I'm not going to give you the files. They will be deleted and we can both go on our merry way. I bet you at least get paid for the day because the band will want to have their files no matter what. And at the same time you get to hone in your craft even further. I did that for years. All you get from that is bands that got work for free, then either move on to the next "free" studio when you try to get them to pay the next time they want to record, or they suddenly decide that recording themselves must "be easy" because you made it look easy and that buying their own recording gear is a "better investment" than paying you to record them. I've had exactly ONE band out of dozens who actually decided to pay for their next record, and even then it was a hard sell with lots of discounts. After those experiences, I made the realization that to be seen as "worth" the money, you must charge the money. If you don't charge something, then people don't associate a "worth" and you become nothing more than another freebee studio that means nothing. I stopped doing "free" and suddenly I had about 4-5 good years of recording bands who paid.. But the last few years have been hard. Something changed in the scene around here and now it's extremely hard to find bands willing to pay.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2017 9:33:27 GMT -6
For those of you trying to get work, but from people who are afraid to pay for a studio... Is it worth a day of work for you to offer your services free of charge for 1 day? Just say, look - my rate is $xxx for a day. Come and work with me for a day. If you like what we did, and would like to continue to work with me, you can pay for today and we can book some future dates. If you don't like what we did, No hurt feelings, but I'm not going to give you the files. They will be deleted and we can both go on our merry way. I bet you at least get paid for the day because the band will want to have their files no matter what. And at the same time you get to hone in your craft even further. One day free means one day gigs that don't pay & or chasing bands for the days they were supposed to pay for. In TX I did a fair amount of free stuff for Medical organizations that were supposed to be used for non- profit purposes, i.e. free distribution, I wrote in the agreement if they charged for use of materials I was due 5% of gross audit on them, well they started selling these videos and it was a very nice gig for about 7 years. My point is what DRbill has learned your skills are far more valuable in other areas than direct consumption of music!
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2017 9:36:12 GMT -6
I have seen multiple 'competitors' follow the model of doing free work for my client list. In the end they didn't gain clients, didn't make anything for their efforts, and took potential work from me. I got to listen to those clients complain about the experience. It's easily cannibalistic.
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Post by svart on Aug 14, 2017 9:43:24 GMT -6
It leads me to say that I've started a new promotion for the studio. I've offered current customers the option to get "free" recording time in return for referring bands who do pay. That way I entice bands to do marketing for me, by compelling them to create word-of-mouth buzz for the studio. So far I've gotten a couple inquiries, but no firm bookings.
I've also offered new clients the option to submit quotes they've gotten from other studios, which I'll try to meet and/or beat. This way the bands can feel good about haggling to "get a deal" and I get to suppress competition. I don't know if that will drum up some business, but it's something to try at least.
I've gotten a lot of new webpage/FB page views from these offers, but nothing solid yet as these are only about a week old.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2017 10:03:20 GMT -6
I need to follow up with a DJ who wants to run an hour slot of music done at my place, with any commentary I want to add. I don't expect work from it, but it sure can't hurt!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2017 10:07:36 GMT -6
It leads me to say that I've started a new promotion for the studio. I've offered current customers the option to get "free" recording time in return for referring bands who do pay. That way I entice bands to do marketing for me, by compelling them to create word-of-mouth buzz for the studio. So far I've gotten a couple inquiries, but no firm bookings. I've also offered new clients the option to submit quotes they've gotten from other studios, which I'll try to meet and/or beat. This way the bands can feel good about haggling to "get a deal" and I get to suppress competition. I don't know if that will drum up some business, but it's something to try at least. I've gotten a lot of new webpage/FB page views from these offers, but nothing solid yet as these are only about a week old. I'm all for taking care of the guys who bring in Buisness, but the thing with a direct discount promotion is who do you give the discount to if multiple clients referred somebody, what works better long term is to take some off the top rewarding somebody for referrals, no set discount just thanks for bringing in Buisness! I remember a guy who did a 10% off for referrals didn't write the rules well so one of his biggest clients refers 15 clients and expects his next project for free and the one after at 1/2 of what he was paying not sheet price!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 14, 2017 10:09:29 GMT -6
I need to follow up with a DJ who wants to run an hour slot of music done at my place, with any commentary I want to add. I don't expect work from it, but it sure can't hurt! Yeah Radio tie ins can go either way, publicity is always good but in music it has to be the right audience for the stuff.
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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2017 10:41:49 GMT -6
Doom and Gloom!!!
If you solicit people who a.) don't know what they are doing; and b.) don't have much money to speak of; and c.) don't have and established career and/or job; and d.) are working on self funded vanity projects - what do you expect to end up with? Exactly the above. Why expect anything different? It was the same 30 years ago, although the paradigm and circumstances were different. (Teac 4 track, etc.) And it will be the same 50 years from now.
Word of mouth in professional circles is, was, has always been the best form of advertising and getting new clients that are GOOD paying and reasonable clients. If you're working with professionals, you'll be rubbing elbows with professionals, and working in professional circumstances. And when you do those professionals will refer you to....more professionals. Really, that's all that needs to be said. If you want to be paid fairly, start working with guys who have paying projects - corporate, ad work, record company gigs, film, TV, libraries, etc.. Although every internet form is replete with people crying that there are no budgets and all the studios are disappearing, there is GREAT music being made that still pays. It may not be KILLER wages, but it's not the grief and doom and gloom that guys seeking out 18 y/o bands get and will constantly get from here to eternity.
Not getting paid? Change what your'e doing.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2017 11:16:19 GMT -6
So I guess we should all move to LA or Nashville, is what drbill is saying. : ) Cause it ain't out here in the boonies. Those artists who manage to rise to pro....leave.....
As I've said, there's corporate aplenty, and I do my fair share.
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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2017 11:26:46 GMT -6
Businesses have to move all the time. Especially if your'e in a service business. It is what it is. If you're in the oil drilling biz and the fields dry up, you move. That said, there's paying business in virtually any region of the US. But you have to think different. Chasing 18-22 y/o bands isn't "it".
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Post by svart on Aug 14, 2017 12:44:34 GMT -6
Yeah I guess all of us having the same problems in multiple locations and seeing the same changes in the industry are wrong because one person says so. Gotcha!
Lemme go pack up and move to.. where again?
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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2017 12:58:15 GMT -6
If you want to be in the business, then move wherever you have to if your area is dead.
I didn't say you guys were "wrong". I didn't say there were not changes in the industry. I said maybe try looking other directions and perhaps try new things if you don't want to encounter what you're continually encountering. And I sure didn't say it would be easy. Geez. Never ceases to amaze that people will continue to beat their head against the wall when it's not working. There are people still making money in music. Just not the "old" ways. I'm just ONE of them. But I'm not doing it how I did it in 1990.
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 14, 2017 13:11:36 GMT -6
Damn, this is a tough one....
I had a group of guys in my place recently, they were a 4 piece band, vocals/ac.gtr, drums, e-bass, e-gtr, I recorded 11 songs with them all playing together for basics. In one 8 hour session. Cost them $400
Next Session: Overdubs. Happy Happy e-Guitars, all the over the place. Oh yea, Re-do the Vocals and Acoustics as well. 5 Hours $250
Next Session: Attended Mixing of the Album. Mix down 11 songs, averaging 45mins-1.5 hours per song. Sounding pretty good. Good enough to get Bar gigs with. Since there was no more budget for external Mastering, I offered to do it myself, without charging them. End result, Album sounded final and good for the time we spent. $400
Next Session: Un Attended Mastering. About 2-3 hours. Tried not to ruin it. $0
2-weeks later..... long story short,
"Adam, we need a many revisions to these songs, here is what we need" [.....I can't even begin to explain this] $0
After they let all their friends listen to the album, they had too much feedback. Which caused them to change their minds about the way the songs sat. $0
There were too many quibbles for my taste, [and for the time we had spent, I think their expectations were quite FAR for what we were doing]
I think the very first time you recall and tweak something, its simply not a mix anymore. You gotta tweak another tweak just to make the tweak. So the amount of tweaks they required, simply sounded horrible to my ears [they had been dictated by others in car stereos or bose pills or whatever]..
Whilst, I then and now, refuse to put my name on a "Tweaked" version of a Mix, so I proceeded to tell them I would listen to the problems they are having with the work WE BOTH did. They chalked it up to their "none-experience" in the studio. I told them I could do recalls, but would need to be paid for my time.
Then they returned with the sales-pitch to "sell me" in completing the album for them properly and that it would be in my best interest to do so. Alright.
So, what I did was pretty much this. I proceeded to listen to the problems and went into the studio, mixing each and every song from the top of the quality control ladder. This time, unattended: I spent nearly 2-3 hours on each mix, sculpting, carving, cultivating, curating all their concerns.
About 14 hours later, their album was finished. $0
After about 20 hours, it was Mastered. $0
No Recalls, No problems. Estimated Value around $1000
Have not yet got any more work from their record,
Cheers and coffee!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 14, 2017 13:29:04 GMT -6
Adam, you did that for you, and it was the right thing to do. It was a classy move. That kind of dedication is something people will pick up on unconsciously, and it will do you good eventually. Just say to yourself you paid it froward.
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