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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2017 14:26:54 GMT -6
So I got a mixing job - possibly 12 songs - through an internet job site. Simple, like 8 tracks...country. They played everything themselves. I offered to get paid for one song and if they liked it we would continue...Singer was pretty talented. But the guy in the duo was a pretty bad player and of course, the most vocal. These are the people that recorded everything with the Bluebird and cheap interface. They explain they don't want anything over compressed - no problem. They send me files...I do a first mix for them. Thought it sounded pretty good. But what do I know - I just have written, mixed and played for 20 years...Get a laundry list back. No problem. The vocal has a spikey drill at 6-7khz, that honestly, can't be fixed. I can take it out, but there are compromises. The vocal was obviously recorded either too hot or with a compressor - something that was saturating - not terribly - but enough that it's an issue with any type of compression. So - I don't use any on the vocal. Cut phrases and adjusted volume where it needed. I can tell they're a little iffy on the first response. I reiterated that anything could be changed - they just have to tell me. They're a country duo and they send me a link to an Alison Kraus song as a reference. Ok...I think they might have recorded on something a little more pricey than a Blue Bluebird and a focusrite interface. The guitar dude gets in on the messages and is obviously the driving force behind the unhappiness. We literally get down to word by word corrections. They give me "needs more warmth on the bottom end"...I ask them they're definition of warmth, etc, etc...I do 4 revisions...and then a 5th and I get a message from them telling me it's not working out and they're going to go with someone else. "They liked the 3rd mix, but the last two have gotten worse (I just made their changes btw) and the whole thing feels over compressed. W.T.F.
This is not my first rodeo...and I'm not a fucking mind-reader. I did 5 REVISIONS...all of this for PEANUTS. I had a really hard time not speaking my mind...but ultimately just told them good luck and I just made the changes they asked for. I asked them to at least pay me the other half of what they owe me for all the work I put in. Jesus. I would LOVE to post what they sent and what I sent back and see if you guys think I suck as bad as they do...but of course, I can't post their shit. Anyway...sometimes I wonder whether this shit is all worth it.
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Post by mulmany on Aug 12, 2017 14:58:45 GMT -6
When I take a mix or "master" project from an unknown client I only do a single verse and chorus. I had an issue where a client took first pass masters and released it online, before final payment was made.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2017 15:02:28 GMT -6
Apparently I'm so bad that they wouldn't do that lol. They've been talking in circles. They asked me to roll off top end. Now they're saying my mixes don't have the warmth and crispness that the ones on my page do.
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Post by mulmany on Aug 12, 2017 15:13:38 GMT -6
You need to tell them that you were singing and playing into a 6 grand chain.
Seriously, if they like your mixes, they need to just let you do your thing.
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Post by svart on Aug 12, 2017 15:14:12 GMT -6
Yep. I've had that happen. Usually I just keep fixing little stuff that I find and only acknowledge their desires. More often than not, they'll "hear" the change whether I made it or not.
Sometimes it's other things in the mix that mask and conflict in the tracks, and "crispness" really means that something else is interfering, but they don't know what they are hearing, so they just use words that come to mind.. which send us knowledgeable folks off on goose chases.
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Post by noah shain on Aug 12, 2017 15:28:58 GMT -6
In my experience, the less I'm getting paid, the more difficult the job/client.
I wanna hear it so bad JK!
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Post by EmRR on Aug 12, 2017 15:52:15 GMT -6
Warmth and crispness. That kinda says it all.
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Post by wiz on Aug 12, 2017 15:53:56 GMT -6
I think what you have done is the right thing, you were courteous.. you didn't pass back anything negative on their performances, and you did what you said you would do.
Thats all anyone could/should expect from anyone on anything.
Just move on.
Its really difficult and in the end I basically closed my doors to the public. For reasons all mentioned above.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2017 15:57:59 GMT -6
It's not the worst thing I've ever heard, but it's definitely a turn chicken shit into chicken salad. I told them that considering what I was sent, their expectations were unreasonable. She told me "I was worried about someone mixing our stuff this cheap and I guess you get what you pay for." I told that b**** she got A LOT more than she paid for.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2017 16:00:10 GMT -6
I think what you have done is the right thing, you were courteous.. you didn't pass back anything negative on their performances, and you did what you said you would do. Thats all anyone could/should expect from anyone on anything. Just move on. Its really difficult and in the end I basically closed my doors to the public. For reasons all mentioned above. cheers Wiz More and more and more it's becoming evident that this is what's in the cards for me. I've taken on outside work to try and survive in this business, but it takes ALL of the enjoyment out of it. I might as well be working a real job making real money. And that's what I'm going to do. Then let music be what it was in the beginning for me - my own.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2017 16:39:18 GMT -6
I do feel for you John but seems to me you've gotten off pretty light up until now.. Here's some from my days:
It needs to be warmer, you should send it to ADAT tape. My guitarist says you should use EZmix to get that "true pro sound".. It doesn't sound Djent enough.. (What the **** does that even mean?) You're a "mix engineer" you don't understand how a song works (when I tried to give a little advice on arrangement with an 8 string guitar and 8 String bass, not exactly trivial to mix).
Got a load of one off requests for sample mixes / masters, they'd say they've decided to go somewhere else and then posted my rough mix / master everywhere. I mean I'm not too bothered about it as if they're happy with an unfinished product it didn't bode well for me in the first place, a lot of them had a piss poor attitude that didn't understand the concept of respect is a two way street and / or we're all human. I understand they're the customer but it's not an excuse to be a dick..
I ultimately went with a day job.. I was always a musician at heart and I lost track of that whilst trying to find sonic nirvana, investing in gear and recording / mixing for what essentially started out as a way to gain experience. If you really enjoy mixing / mastering then take it on the chin and move on, if you're like me who's more interested in the music there's far better ways to suppliment your passion.
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Post by jampa on Aug 12, 2017 17:05:36 GMT -6
Don't have anything helpful to add just that I've been there too and yea it's shiddy
Solution: am heading more in Wiz's direction by doing less public work
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Post by reddirt on Aug 12, 2017 18:26:11 GMT -6
Hey John i understand your desire to do a great job and work well above and beyond to achieve it : i understand how we second guess ourselves when clients are critical of that work and I also understand how you don't want to descend into petty behaviour when God knows you could be forgiven if you did.
This sounds like real insecurity going on with these clients and the truth is you are the scapegoat for their issues. You are probably never going to win and neither are they anywhere else. Just put it behind you; file it under experience however galling.
I don't, for my own health's sake, take on projects that are going to cruel my musical love anymore but I get that you may need anything and everything to put food on the table so the best course of action may well be to take non-recording work that doesn't eat up your love for music and brings in a regular wage.
ironically, with all the jumping through hoops you've done for them, you probably learned quite a bit about your craft. (certainly about people!)
We're with you mate
Cheers, Ross
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Post by rowmat on Aug 12, 2017 18:47:02 GMT -6
We track most of what we mix and our most demanding and hyper critical clients are amateur singer/songwriters.
Fortunately we tend to mostly record professionals or semi-pros and they are generally so much easier to work with.
A certain professional sisterly duo we recorded who slammed out some great sounding demo songs in just a few hours with were a godsend after a previous amateur singer/songwriter client who fixated on, and fussed over, irrelevant minutia while contradicting themselves every five minutes.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 12, 2017 18:55:06 GMT -6
So I got a mixing job - possibly 12 songs - through an internet job site. Simple, like 8 tracks...country. They played everything themselves. I offered to get paid for one song and if they liked it we would continue...Singer was pretty talented. But the guy in the duo was a pretty bad player and of course, the most vocal. These are the people that recorded everything with the Bluebird and cheap interface. They explain they don't want anything over compressed - no problem. They send me files...I do a first mix for them. Thought it sounded pretty good. But what do I know - I just have written, mixed and played for 20 years...Get a laundry list back. No problem. The vocal has a spikey drill at 6-7khz, that honestly, can't be fixed. I can take it out, but there are compromises. The vocal was obviously recorded either too hot or with a compressor - something that was saturating - not terribly - but enough that it's an issue with any type of compression. So - I don't use any on the vocal. Cut phrases and adjusted volume where it needed. I can tell they're a little iffy on the first response. I reiterated that anything could be changed - they just have to tell me. They're a country duo and they send me a link to an Alison Kraus song as a reference. Ok...I think they might have recorded on something a little more pricey than a Blue Bluebird and a focusrite interface. The guitar dude gets in on the messages and is obviously the driving force behind the unhappiness. We literally get down to word by word corrections. They give me "needs more warmth on the bottom end"...I ask them they're definition of warmth, etc, etc...I do 4 revisions...and then a 5th and I get a message from them telling me it's not working out and they're going to go with someone else. "They liked the 3rd mix, but the last two have gotten worse (I just made their changes btw) and the whole thing feels over compressed. W.T.F. This is not my first rodeo...and I'm not a fucking mind-reader. I did 5 REVISIONS...all of this for PEANUTS. I had a really hard time not speaking my mind...but ultimately just told them good luck and I just made the changes they asked for. I asked them to at least pay me the other half of what they owe me for all the work I put in. Jesus. I would LOVE to post what they sent and what I sent back and see if you guys think I suck as bad as they do...but of course, I can't post their shit. Anyway...sometimes I wonder whether this shit is all worth it. You live in times where no pro mucsicians can record anything at home and feel like a country music star. I did it a few times one time with a pro, that was fine, two times with wannabees, one time with bad famous german producer (nightmare). Guess what happend with the wannbees. Redo change this change that ...we do not like X and Z should be changed back to X. Sorry we liked the strings in mix one better than in mix three. Seven revisons later I advised them to pay me and to mix the song by thier self. A few weeks passed and with big tada they send me thier DIY mix which did sound like BS. No depth, no dimension no nothing what you like about a good mix. But they have been totally happy with thier DIY mix. Bottom line of the story is pure psychology. People of our time cant trust anymore and they think that they are experts at everything. In other words if even the greatest country mixing geek in NS would have done it, they would come with a big redo list. Just becasue they think they can do better. The truth starts that they dont have propper monitoring for making critical choices. My advise is not to talk about it, becasue bottom line always will be.... they know better than you. But hey this 2017 and people think everything can be done without hard work. Thats the reason I dont offer my service in the public. If friends hire my place, I know they are all professionals muscians who trust me. We do choices together, with arguments and in the end we hope to have something nice. For the 98% of the time my studio is a place just for me. For my songs, for writeing, transcribing and having a lot of fun. I decided in 2005 that I no longer offer AE services becasue of the wannabee pro muscians in this town. Someone else can do it, if he has the nervs to do it. I am not a well known AE and with this I wont get A+++ clients. Sting never called, guess why? Thats the end of my story /expereince. Have fun with your sweet home-studio.
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Post by winetree on Aug 12, 2017 19:09:22 GMT -6
I've mixed and mastered many outside projects over the last 40 years. Most of them being on 2" tape. Being on that format there was a great deal of professionalism and use of quality equipment as most were done in professional studios with engineers that knew what they were doing. The musicianship was usually good for the client to make that investment. You are right. Today any yahoo can buy a Bluebird mic and a cheap interface and think they can produce a million dollar sound. Not saying a person with musical and engineering talent can't produce a quality recording with lower priced equipment in a home studio but it takes a degree of talent and ears. I glad I don't have to take in anything to pay the bills and only do projects I like or produce. It's become a professional hobby.
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Post by rowmat on Aug 12, 2017 19:19:02 GMT -6
Once upon a time $2000 a day studio rates tended to filter out a lot of the wannabe's. Today this 'filter' is by and large non existent. Today anybody can be a 'star' for just $10 an hour!
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2017 19:45:26 GMT -6
So - on this job board that I joined (took two months for them to "approve" me) I got two jobs - this one and one other...and I thought, shit - maybe this will be some great income...but HOLEE SHIT. This is misery lol. I feel for you guys that have been doing this for a living. So all this went on with this first one. So get a load of this.
The second job was $500 to build tracks for this singer. She found me and asked to work together (she heard the demos I had posted.) So - awesome! She sends me the "song" and it's just her singing. Nothing but her voice. xI write her back and say - "Is there any music with this? Any melody other than the topline?" Are you wanting me to write the backing music? Of course she does. But no biggie - I'll do it - it wasn't hard. She sang in tune and to a click. I explained that this wasn't really a work for hire, but a collaboration and if we worked like this again, it would require more money. So anyway - I was smart. I tracked an electric guitar to her voice and sent it to her to see if she liked the direction and wanted to move forward. She "loved it!" So off I go tracking four guitars, Drums, Bass and B3...I wouldn't normally track B3, but the song was basically a rock song...like - there are only so many instruments that could fit the style. But hey - I'm smart - before I go any further (than the 5 hours I've already spent) I decided to send it to her to see if she wanted to move forward - after all, all this shit with the other morons had just happened.
I send her a snippet mp3...Get her reply and she's not "peachy about it." She asks whether she should rewrite the melody so it's more modern. Then she links two Florida Georgia songs. No. I see where this is heading. I'm cutting my losses. I PM'd her and said it's not working and offered her upfront money back.
Thus ends my career as an Internet Track Builder.
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Post by yotonic on Aug 12, 2017 19:47:15 GMT -6
The world has always been full of douche bags. Don't put yourself in the way of oncoming traffic.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Aug 12, 2017 20:11:50 GMT -6
Parallel compression in these instances.. compressing the crap they give makes it more crap like so parallel smash and blend works wonders in these "Mixes" I know the feeling man ... don't let u trained ears convince you otherwise of what you know ... we are trained and hear things the average consumer will never hear in their most favorite song ..
it's hard to talk with people who don't understand as well, so that adds another element, and you don't want to come off as lecturing( telling them how to do something ) either ... fine line to walk.. I feel you did what you could! This one artist doesn't make you or break you JK, don't let them knock the wind out of your musical sail 😀
$500 for 5 hours is great money..
If she had accepted the tracks would you have been paid the $500 for your 5 hours and writing/ singing, and tracking? Or for the $500 payment were you expected to compose, arrange, write, sing, mix and master while taking her orders every step of the way ? If the latter then I understand and believe you made a great choice in wanting to part ways..
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2017 20:30:52 GMT -6
I should have known what I was getting into. I remember when I first started as a songwriter when I would have demo sessions. These are some of the most talented musicians in the world...and I would come out going, "It's just not what I wanted." Then I would send it off to be mixed and be highly offended when I got it back. How dare they not read my mind! It was all just youth and immaturity. I didn't know how to convey what I wanted to the musicians. I wasn't prepared. I was insecure and unprepared. What a douche I was...You grow and learn what can and can't be done, how to do it and how to talk to people.
These days, if I send a mix out, I know WHO to send it to and when I get it back I might only have two or three things to change. If it was a demo, I wouldn't even bother most likely.
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Post by yotonic on Aug 12, 2017 20:32:24 GMT -6
It has little to do with production. I work around bands and labels for a living and MANY of them are delusional. They think because they are signed or know how to arrange and record on Pro Tools that they are talented. And some are talented, for the nice little towns they come from, just like their local high school quarterback. But almost none of them are as talented as they think they are, and very, very few could EVER be studio musicians. There was a time when musicians from Neil Young to Steely Dan respected the craft of musicianship and cut records with the best players. Today these retards think if they buy a Flea 47 and Manley Voxbox it's going to change something - it won't. Some people practice harder and are more naturally gifted and deserve their success. The rest are here to torment us with their belief that outboard gear and Dave Cobb will make them successful, and they aren't going to pay for it because they don't pay for anything else on the world wide web.
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Post by drbill on Aug 12, 2017 20:32:31 GMT -6
In my experience, the less I'm getting paid, the more difficult the job/client. It's not just your experience Noah - it's a verifiable fact of the laws of the universe. And now that everyone has a studio on their laptop, it's even worse. - John - I think you have the right idea -- don't do these kinds of gigs. They only go one direction. There are a thousand ways that are WAY easier to earn a buck.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2017 20:34:03 GMT -6
Parallel compression in these instances.. compressing the crap they give makes it more crap like so parallel smash and blend works wonders in these "Mixes" I know the feeling man ... don't let u trained ears convince you otherwise of what you know ... we are trained and hear things the average consumer will never hear in their most favorite song .. it's hard to talk with people who don't understand as well, so that adds another element, and you don't want to come off as lecturing( telling them how to do something ) either ... fine line to walk.. I feel you did what you could! This one artist doesn't make you or break you JK, don't let them knock the wind out of your musical sail 😀 $500 for 5 hours is great money.. If she had accepted the tracks would you have been paid the $500 for your 5 hours and writing/ singing, and tracking? Or for the $500 payment were you expected to compose, arrange, write, sing, mix and master while taking her orders every step of the way ? If the latter then I understand and believe you made a great choice in wanting to part ways.. The latter. Except she was going to sing and send back to me. Ugh. And btw, it would have been more than 5 hours. And she wanted to change the song after I had already done work. Danger.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 12, 2017 20:46:49 GMT -6
In my experience, the less I'm getting paid, the more difficult the job/client. It's not just your experience Noah - it's a verifiable fact of the laws of the universe. And now that everyone has a studio on their laptop, it's even worse. - John - I think you have the right idea -- don't do these kinds of gigs. They only go one direction. There are a thousand ways that are WAY easier to earn a buck. You're both definitely right...And I've had these experiences before. Don't know why I thought this would be different. The thought of money excited me. lol. As I said above, it's becoming more clear to me that it's time for me to move on from this as my sole profession. What I did for 18 years no longer exists. At least for me. I've watched friends (that I found out were just acquaintances) go on to have multiple No.1s. Some are SUPER talented and absolutely deserved what they got and some couldn't write their way out of a paper sack. But thems the breaks. I'm really not asking for pity - this has been a fantastic ride - and I'm sorry to talk about it so much on here - but it's who I am. I think talking about it is cathartic, so I appreciate you guys not telling me to just shut the fuck up (I would ban you lol) I got into this because I LOVED it. I loved writing what was in my heart and head - not striving to please anyone - just to be great like my artist heroes. Somewhere along the way it became un-fun...and I think it was due to unfortunate timing in the music industry. There really aren't outside songs these days. Artists write their own music - for good or bad. (Thanks, Taylor Swift) So, if you're not in the camp, good luck. I don't have the desire or the lack of self respect to chase 25 year old artists on their tour bus just to hope and get a song written between lines of coke. That's not what I got into this to do. And that seems to be the biggest echo in all of this. "That's not what I got into this to do." And man, the above stories are just more confirmation.
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