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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 9, 2017 11:55:19 GMT -6
Anything tube, inexpensive, and worthwhile to look at out there?
Also, everyone mentions to look at these Adcom solid state amps and have JW mod them. How are these unmodded? Should I be looking at these even if I have no intention of modding them? Is there anything else inexpensive, but nice that I should consider? Carver? Hafler? Others?
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Post by EmRR on Aug 9, 2017 12:13:33 GMT -6
Tube power amps are fun for monitors, may provide a 'home listener' option, but until you spend $$$$ or $$$$$ won't perform in as linear a fashion as a SS amp. In particular, the lower damping factor means the response will vary in real time in reaction to the changing impedance curve of the speakers as they respond to the music in play. The only possible exceptions in my mind would be when mated with vintage speakers, so Altec 604's, other Altecs, horn based systems, etc. They may sound better there, again more of a party/option monitor than a particularly faithful main option. I have a bunch of vintage low power broadcast tube amps I like, and they live on the home system which is a set of Klipsch La Scala horns with modern crossover and driver upgrades. They give a great second opinion, but would be a challenge to mix on.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 9, 2017 12:19:20 GMT -6
Tube power amps are fun for monitors, may provide a 'home listener' option, but until you spend $$$$ or $$$$$ won't perform in as linear a fashion as a SS amp. In particular, the lower damping factor means the response will vary in real time in reaction to the changing impedance curve of the speakers as they respond to the music in play. The only possible exceptions in my mind would be when mated with vintage speakers, so Altec 604's, other Altecs, horn based systems, etc. They may sound better there, again more of a party/option monitor than a particularly faithful main option. I have a bunch of vintage low power broadcast tube amps I like, and they live on the home system which is a set of Klipsch La Scala horns with modern crossover and driver upgrades. They give a great second opinion, but would be a challenge to mix on. I was expecting this to be the consensus.
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Post by Ward on Aug 9, 2017 17:46:34 GMT -6
It's cool that you want to enjoy your music on a better monitoring system including a tube amplifier... but what about the coloration that will affect how you listen to it and make decisions for your mixes?
Isn't your audience or customers listening on earbuds, car stereos, pod blasters, laptop speakers, computer speakers etc???
Won't listening on something that makes your work sound better make it sound worse when it's reduced to the crappy listening environment most consumers listen to it on, these days?
Just spitballing. I've been known to be wrong, on occasion.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,934
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Post by ericn on Aug 9, 2017 17:54:40 GMT -6
Dyna kit lots of DIY fun, Quicksilver Monos, Old Cj MV series would all run under a grand!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 9, 2017 22:08:12 GMT -6
It's cool that you want to enjoy your music on a better monitoring system including a tube amplifier... but what about the coloration that will affect how you listen to it and make decisions for your mixes? Isn't your audience or customers listening on earbuds, car stereos, pod blasters, laptop speakers, computer speakers etc??? Won't listening on something that makes your work sound better make it sound worse when it's reduced to the crappy listening environment most consumers listen to it on, these days? Just spitballing. I've been known to be wrong, on occasion. Really, I'm just considering a set of Amphion's and will need another amp to power them. I was cruising online and it occurred to me that tube amps are a thing, but figured only the uber expensive would be sufficient. Is there a way to switch between speakers off a single amp? Amp > switcher > 2 sets of passives? I don't want to be sending a wonky omh load or something, but maybe a switcher would handle that? Gotta be cheaper than adding an amp.
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Post by duke on Aug 10, 2017 1:02:59 GMT -6
Most solid state amps approximate a constant-voltage source, which means that they put out more wattage into a low impedance and less wattage into a high impedance. Most loudspeakers are designed with constant-voltage amplifiers in mind.
Tube amps usually approximate a constant-power source, delivering approximately the same power (wattage) across the spectrum as the impedance curve swings up and down, unless the swings are really big and/or go outside the range the amplifier was designed for.
Let me explain how a problem can arise from the different behavior of these two amplifier types (I'll be making some simplifying assumptions but the principles illustrated are correct): Suppose a hypothetical "8-ohm" speaker was designed for solid state. Let's say its impedance curve has a 16 ohm peak at 50 Hz, the impedance dips to 4 ohms at 200 Hz, and there is a 32 ohm peak at 4 kHz. So when our constant-voltage solid state amp is putting out 2.83 volts (1 watt into 8 ohms), it is putting out 1/2 watt into the 16-ohm peak at 50 Hz; 2 watts into that 4-ohm dip at 200 Hz; and only putting 1/4 watt into that 32-ohm peak at 4 kHz. Since the speaker designer expected this, all is well - the speaker sounds balanced.
Now suppose we decide to try a tube amp, which puts out approximately the same wattage across the spectrum. At 50 Hz, the speaker is getting twice as much power as the designer expected (+3 dB), so the bass sounds bloated. At 200 Hz, the speaker is getting one-half as much power as the designer expected (-3 dB ), so the lower midrange region sounds thin. And at 4 kHz, the speaker is getting four times as much power as the designer expected (+6 dB), so the speaker sounds harsh. Our instinct would be to conclude "tube amps suck", but really the culprit was a component mis-match.
It is not too difficult to design a loudspeaker to work well with a low-damping-factor, constant-power-approximating tube amp, as well as with solid state amps. The secret is, make the impedance curve very smooth over most of the spectrum, and use a variable-tuning port system so you can tailor the port tuning to your particular amplifier damping factor/room-induced low-end boundary reinforcement situation. (With tube amps in particular, amp + speaker + room = a "system".) So IF you are going to try a tube amp, unless you know the speakers were designed for tubes, take a look at the impedance curve. Amphions were mentioned - their impedance curves don't swing as wildly as my hypothetical "8 ohm" speaker above, but their nice flat frequency response curves (measured on a constant-voltage amp almost certainly) will be modulated somewhat by the impedance curve when driven by most tube amps.
That being said, even with compatible speakers, I would not suggest relying on a tube-amp-based monitoring system because I think it could potentially sound "too good" and result in a mix that doesn't translate well to lesser systems. But a good tube-based system just might be killer when it's time to "impress the client".
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 10, 2017 4:30:16 GMT -6
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Post by duke on Aug 10, 2017 18:14:32 GMT -6
Apparently I've lost the ability to quote, so I'll copy and paste: "Anyone see an issue with this? www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00LNOAGZQ" I looked at some of the reviews and at least one person is reporting a POP when switching between amplifiers. You'd have to decide whether that would be a deal-killer for you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 4:38:09 GMT -6
Dyna kit lots of DIY fun, Quicksilver Monos, Old Cj MV series would all run under a grand! I love my Dynakit ST35 from www.dynakitparts.com for home listening. Never tried on passive monitors. I'd probably go for monoblocks or ST70.
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Post by M57 on Aug 13, 2017 4:49:19 GMT -6
Anything tube, inexpensive, and worthwhile to look at out there? Also, everyone mentions to look at these Adcom solid state amps and have JW mod them. How are these unmodded? Should I be looking at these even if I have no intention of modding them? Is there anything else inexpensive, but nice that I should consider? Carver? Hafler? Others? I sold the 555 many years ago while working sales at a Hi-Fi store - I've never heard it modded and I don't even know what the mod does, but I was never a huge fan of the stock model. I seem to recall it being somewhat flat and lifeless - but those were my non-engineering ears listening. Also, I always wondered if it truly lived up to its power specs.
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