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Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 2, 2017 8:35:02 GMT -6
Here's a little video I did demonstrating the effect on ribbon mics when removing the input transformer secondary resistor. RCA specified for their tube preamps not to have a secondary resistor, and rather for the signal to go straight to the first tube grid. My limited understanding is this is common on nearly all of the tube preamps of yesteryear.
I'm curious to get input from those of you who are more knowledgable on the subject.
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 2, 2017 9:35:06 GMT -6
The mic seems considerably brighter when you remove the load resistor, which is interesting. Can't say I'd have a defined preference, as on a more sibilant voice it might be problematic. Lovely low shelf filter there i will say, once applied you can quickly hear the vocal sound how it might need to in a mix.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 2, 2017 9:48:59 GMT -6
Here's a little video I did demonstrating the effect on ribbon mics when removing the input transformer secondary resistor. RCA specified for their tube preamps not to have a secondary resistor, and rather for the signal to go straight to the first tube grid. My limited understanding is this is common on nearly all of the tube preamps of yesteryear. I'm curious to get input from those of you who are more knowledgable on the subject. Any chance of getting clips to download with and without? The sound feels richer without, but I'd like to ABx myself to know I'm not just being an idiot when jumping around on the youtube video.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 2, 2017 9:53:10 GMT -6
By habit I don't watch videos, so guessing you refer to a Jensen input, but yes, 90+% of vintage tube preamps use unloaded secondaries, the capacitive input value of the tube grid being the predominate load. A few of the early Altec preamps have matching load resistors, that's about it. Many modern transformers are designed with a secondary load resistor in mind, or a Zobel, and don't give design spec response without a load. Most older transformers don't require a secondary load resistor, though there were a few companies that issued a similar design spec transformer for both loaded and unloaded use. Modern design expectation versus any vintage is fairly apples to oranges in comparison, so applying ancient thinking to modern parts frequently leads to a 'fail'. Many of those modern parts expect a bridging relationship source Z, and don't give good response without it. Many of those old parts are happy with a matching condition, or even a somewhat slightly heavier load. All of that plays into exactly what a load will do to either one. Reflected Z from an ancient unloaded input transformer can look extremely high, it can also look extremely low. It is always like a speaker impedance curve, with wide variations with respect to frequency. A modern part may be much more linear, and that load being part of the recipe for flat response. Removing it may also do what RCA frequently did in preamp design, which was to add treble boost networks to compensate for ribbon high frequency rolloff, delivering a combined flat response. Removing the load will also change level, so some sort of null check is required for truthful listening.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 2, 2017 13:51:23 GMT -6
Thanks for the input. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about all this stuff. Seems like it may take many lifetimes to accumulate the knowledge that many of you guys have.
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Post by Ward on Aug 4, 2017 6:16:17 GMT -6
The secondary resistor removed and second position low shelf just opened up the microphone beautifully! Still had a ribbon's warmth but it was so nicely cleaned up. Positively useful!!
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Post by iamasound on Aug 4, 2017 17:09:02 GMT -6
Perhaps a physical a bypass switch to either leave in the secondary resistor or to go around it would be a very useful thing indeed.
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Post by Ward on Aug 5, 2017 7:30:19 GMT -6
Perhaps a physical a bypass switch to either leave in the secondary resistor or to go around it would be a very useful thing indeed. Yes, and there are a few EQ switches I'd like to see standard in some preamps too... 1. the 'ribbon' switch which shelves 250hz on down at a 6db slope. 2. the 'drum' switch which puts a Q.50 -4.5db cut at 350hz 3. a 'presence' switch around the 3-6k range 4. an 'air' switch that does...well you know.. Any other things? Maybe we can persuade jsteiger and others. API should have done #2 YEARS ago.
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 5, 2017 7:32:10 GMT -6
I think you'd have to be able to have a switchable frequency on that shelf. I often start around 450Hz to tackle proximity effect!
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Post by Ward on Aug 5, 2017 7:38:40 GMT -6
I think you'd have to be able to have a switchable frequency on that shelf. I often start around 450Hz to tackle proximity effect! Raising the bar... I love it!
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 5, 2017 10:01:28 GMT -6
Very cool.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 6, 2017 12:11:17 GMT -6
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Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 6, 2017 12:23:27 GMT -6
My recording colleague notices pronounced energy in the 3k neighborhood with the resistor in place. This is subdued with the resistor removed.
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 7, 2017 8:11:39 GMT -6
Awesome video demo!! Thanks for posting. (I watched the video on my desktop computer speakers) This is certainly extremely interesting to me. Like all things in audio, its a compromise. When I heard the first take and judged the dynamics, I felt the R-84 sounded wonderful on your voice. Especially when in the higher register. Had an "old" quality to it. Perhaps a little dull, or dry/warm. Etc. However you say it, it felt flattering to your voice, but also not super detailed.
During the Second example, the quieter parts had more "life" and air. Which I really liked over the first example. However, the louder parts where not as "ear cozy", so the sacrifice here is that you will get more detail, but a bit harder to handle transient.
Thanks again for sharing! Super Cool. The Loading off the plate is nice. If the circuit could use some type of Non-Linear Compression after the input amplifier, I might get the "match made in heaven" feelz!
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Post by EmRR on Aug 7, 2017 8:33:48 GMT -6
Don't think I said this earlier: if this is the Jensen circuit and transformer with specified resistance, it's not a matching load, but a proper bridging one. Removing the load is essentially undoing the correction, letting the transformer resonate (square waves worse), and therefore EQing the path with a treble boost.
If memory is correct, the Western Electric mics (and just a few of the RCA), were designed for matching condition, which would explain Altec using a matching secondary load resistance. Virtually every antique multi-input remote amp used a single channel preamp with a passive mic level mixing bus up front, and those were always matching inputs due to the attenuators used. There are a lot of those out there with 30 ohm inputs, and they really are 30 ohm. In all cases you disconnect the mixing bus and connect directly to the input transformer for a proper single channel preamp with no matching load resistance, and no mixing losses at mic level.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 7, 2017 21:47:54 GMT -6
Digging a bit deeper tonight... I don't have an example to show, but without the resistor there were all sorts of ringing anomalies throughout the sweep. It seems clear, as Doug pointed out, that the resistor is helpful in stabilizing the input transformer. So, here are the frequency responses of the current prototype. The first photo shows the reference signal compared to the right and left channels of the preamp. The second photo shows the low shelf RC networks in action. I plan to adjust the medium shelf a bit lower. (Or maybe I won't. Need to play around with various instruments.) The graph can be visually deceiving, as the maximum cut is only 5.5 dB at 50Hz. Thoughts?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919
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Post by ericn on Aug 9, 2017 6:58:44 GMT -6
Perhaps a physical a bypass switch to either leave in the secondary resistor or to go around it would be a very useful thing indeed. Yes, and there are a few EQ switches I'd like to see standard in some preamps too... 1. the 'ribbon' switch which shelves 250hz on down at a 6db slope. 2. the 'drum' switch which puts a Q.50 -4.5db cut at 350hz 3. a 'presence' switch around the 3-6k range 4. an 'air' switch that does...well you know.. Any other things? Maybe we can persuade jsteiger and others. API should have done #2 YEARS ago. That's what EQ's and filters are for you can never please all the people.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 9, 2017 7:11:38 GMT -6
Yes, and there are a few EQ switches I'd like to see standard in some preamps too... 1. the 'ribbon' switch which shelves 250hz on down at a 6db slope. 2. the 'drum' switch which puts a Q.50 -4.5db cut at 350hz 3. a 'presence' switch around the 3-6k range 4. an 'air' switch that does...well you know.. Any other things? Maybe we can persuade jsteiger and others. API should have done #2 YEARS ago. That's what EQ's and filters are for you can never please all the people. Way back when studios would rig preferential circuits like that. The 1960's Columbia studio EQ's are unmarked, and do the most custom set of curves I've seen in an EQ, clearly what they thought would be most used for their needs at the time.
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