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Post by mrholmes on Aug 1, 2017 16:02:31 GMT -6
The last days I had some spare time becasue of vacation time and I re arranged my PP.
I also pulled out two of my old reverb units the Yamaha REV 500 and the Midiverb II are back in the game.
I cant explian it but everytime I use them they have some cahracter, some pepper - the software verbs dont have.
The REV 500 for example is extremly there dimensional and up fornt.
I guess they use some great delay tricks.
The best of it all its setup in no time on a LV, the unit just uses 4 main knobs to manipulate the reverb.
The tail of this unit is a dream.
BTW, you can get them for about 70-100 Dollars on e bay.
The MVII is such a noisy mess but its pure fun on snare.
Put a very small room on a sample sanre and the whole thing gets a new live.
Did try the same thing with SV verb....mähhh...
Is this becasue of the extra roundtrip AD DA?
Is that adding something what I like?
Or the algos from the 80s and 90s are not bad at all?
Always I use them I am surprissed how good they are, how much life the ad to a song.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2017 17:52:17 GMT -6
Recently i made a mix for a friend, and he asked me "What is this reverb?". I said, it is the Mixbus inbuilt GVerb+ from Harrison (essential pack). He thought, it was one of the "big boy" TC units and was quite surprised. It has some lush sounds for guitars that are really good.
In fact it surprised me, that their reverb and delay beats what other DAWs have onboard.
Nevertheless, i really like my old Sony HW multieffect really and still have 2 bucket-brigade delays that i will probably never get rid of, just for fun. One of them was originally marketed "digital delay" when digital was brand new and cool, hahaha.
I don't know really... The digital algorithms don't know if they run ITB or on dedicated hardware. Add artifacts from older ADCs and DACs, analog in- and output gainstages and it is hardware.
Of course - hardware is a good dongle for software, so we will see most probably also hardware in future for protection of intellectual property...
I do not prefer either, if it works it works....
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Post by rowmat on Aug 1, 2017 18:13:49 GMT -6
If you have a hybrid setup and enough mixer and convertor channels try sending a plugin wet only reverb on its own dedicated reverb buss out of the DAW through its own D/A's and re-route the reverb return back into the console as you would with any typical outboard reverb.
This gets you closer to external hardware reverbs in terms of the AD/DA conversion process (actually DA/AD in this situation) along with analog summing using the console's mix buss.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 1, 2017 18:36:57 GMT -6
If you have a hybrid setup and enough mixer and convertor channels try sending a plugin wet only reverb on its own dedicated reverb buss out of the DAW through its own D/A's and re-route the reverb return back into the console as you would with any typical outboard reverb. This gets you closer to external hardware reverbs in terms of the AD/DA conversion process (actually DA/AD in this situation) along with analog summing using the console's mix buss. In other words our ears a used to know this sound? Strange! |
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Post by rowmat on Aug 1, 2017 18:51:43 GMT -6
If you have a hybrid setup and enough mixer and convertor channels try sending a plugin wet only reverb on its own dedicated reverb buss out of the DAW through its own D/A's and re-route the reverb return back into the console as you would with any typical outboard reverb. This gets you closer to external hardware reverbs in terms of the AD/DA conversion process (actually DA/AD in this situation) along with analog summing using the console's mix buss. In other words our ears a used to know this sound? Strange! Maybe but I think analog summing works better for reverbs than digital summing as I find the verbs tend to blend in better with the overall mix when analog summed. It could be the subtle imperfections such as some additional intermodulation effects etc. that maybe more prevalent in many analog mix busses than when summed in the digital domain. Plus I like being able to find the verb sweet spot by physically riding the console faders on the returns. |
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Post by dandeurloo on Aug 1, 2017 19:27:21 GMT -6
The last days I had some spare time becasue of vacation time and I re arranged my PP. I also pulled out two of my old reverb units the Yamaha REV 500 and the Midiverb II are back in the game. I cant explian it but everytime I use them they have some cahracter, some pepper - the software verbs dont have. The REV 500 for example is extremly there dimensional and up fornt. I guess they use some great delay tricks. The best of it all its setup in no time on a LV, the unit just uses 4 main knobs to manipulate the reverb. The tail of this unit is a dream. BTW, you can get them for about 70-100 Dollars on e bay. The MVII is such a noisy mess but its pure fun on snare. Put a very small room on a sample sanre and the whole thing gets a new live. Did try the same thing with SV verb....mähhh... Is this becasue of the extra roundtrip AD DA? Is that adding something what I like? Or the algos from the 80s and 90s are not bad at all? Always I use them I am surprissed how good they are, how much life the ad to a song. I wish I had more sends on my console or that PT would let me have more DA's. I would hook up more hardware fx in a heart beat. They almost instantly work, they are creative and they make my tracks sound richer. Even a few of the good old cheap guys like the SPX 90 get used a lot. I have the best ITB fx as well. They work but they always require more fussing with and end up not sounding as rich in the end. Sometimes that is prefect but not always. |
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Post by rowmat on Aug 1, 2017 19:35:13 GMT -6
The last days I had some spare time becasue of vacation time and I re arranged my PP. I also pulled out two of my old reverb units the Yamaha REV 500 and the Midiverb II are back in the game. I cant explian it but everytime I use them they have some cahracter, some pepper - the software verbs dont have. The REV 500 for example is extremly there dimensional and up fornt. I guess they use some great delay tricks. The best of it all its setup in no time on a LV, the unit just uses 4 main knobs to manipulate the reverb. The tail of this unit is a dream. BTW, you can get them for about 70-100 Dollars on e bay. The MVII is such a noisy mess but its pure fun on snare. Put a very small room on a sample sanre and the whole thing gets a new live. Did try the same thing with SV verb....mähhh... Is this becasue of the extra roundtrip AD DA? Is that adding something what I like? Or the algos from the 80s and 90s are not bad at all? Always I use them I am surprissed how good they are, how much life the ad to a song. I'm stretching my memory here but I vaguely remember that patches '07' and maybe '15' were good MV II room verbs for snare? |
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 2, 2017 3:29:48 GMT -6
I did some more ABing in a mix and as always it depends on the stiutation.
I would not give away the plug ins too... if I manipulate them they can get extremly close.
Tough the HW verbs glue more with the source and taht is something I love.
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Post by jazznoise on Aug 2, 2017 9:41:18 GMT -6
Very good reverb plugins like Softube's Tsar-1 are hard to argue with, though I admittedly use my TC M-OneXL much less then I should. Mostly as a delay line for room mics.
The only thing I'd add is a room mic always sounds better feeding most reverbs than the dry source, I think it's easier to manipulate an acoustic space rather than just try to replace it.
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Post by notneeson on Aug 2, 2017 18:37:17 GMT -6
I did some pedal steel and other stuff using the reverb chamber at Hyde Street on an album and it was great, the players were inspired and it had a cool sound. But when I mixed that project I did not feel that the "realness" of the chamber necessarily made it work better in the mixes. TL Space and Valhalla Vintage Verb both contributed quite well to the finished product. FWIW I've tried to love PCM 60s and 70s and don't get the hype. But then again, I've never made an Enya record so maybe it's a genre thing.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 2, 2017 19:51:28 GMT -6
I did some pedal steel and other stuff using the reverb chamber at Hyde Street on an album and it was great, the players were inspired and it had a cool sound. But when I mixed that project I did not feel that the "realness" of the chamber necessarily made it work better in the mixes. TL Space and Valhalla Vintage Verb both contributed quite well to the finished product. FWIW I've tried to love PCM 60s and 70s and don't get the hype. But then again, I've never made an Enya record so maybe it's a genre thing. I think it depends on the song, hatet that I bought Altiverb for years, but than there was one LV in pop song and an IR of a chamber at capital? did the trick everybody simled |
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Post by adamjbrass on Aug 3, 2017 6:11:08 GMT -6
since all these plugs have varying qualities, I would certainly think the math inside the box matters to the reverb. But perhaps the sound of these units are cooler because they have analog amplifier components to them as well. They just have a particular sound. As does your Interface's ADA's Electronics. Most of the time, the Converters are the differences we hear, though the calculation crunching def matters. There are tons of good digital options these days. There are a few hardware units out there that set themselves apart, and w/ plug ins, I find that most days I have to dink around with them to make them sound better. With a better hardware unit, you don't have to do much work.
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Post by joseph on Aug 3, 2017 6:46:33 GMT -6
Yeah, to me it's all about the algorithms.
I think the Relab reverbs are as good as any hardware except a Bricasti, being black box reverse engineered 480L and TC 6000 programs. So much so that I decided against buying a TC 4000.
Likewise Exponential reverbs are far better than Eventide (namely the H units, so unless you want the Blackhole effect or 2016) or Strymon reverbs, and I prefer them to most Lexicons, and certainly Nimbus is more realistic than any of them.
Don't get me wrong, I love hardware too, especially BBD guitar pedals and amp effects, and the OTO units look quite cool.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 3, 2017 7:19:45 GMT -6
Cowboycoalminer did a part on a track for me last year. When he sent it back, I noticed the reverb was lush and big, different from the typical reverbs I use regularly, (Relab XL480, EMT-140), Ocean Way). I asked him, and he said it was a Lexicon reverb he got on eBay for $80. Now I know the Relab is extremely close to the real thing, but somehow the cheap Lexicon hardware was bigger and richer. I didn't know it was hardware when I first listened, I just commented about it and then he told me it was a Lexi.
I've begun using the 7th Heaven Bricasti style reverb in the place of both the Ocean Way and Relab, and my tracks are cleaner. Sooner of later I'm going to try hardware verbs again. I'd like to start with a PCM70 or M300. I loved one track that NoFilterChuck posted using the Eventide H9 footpedal, so that's a consideration too.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 3, 2017 7:33:15 GMT -6
Cowboycoalminer did a part on a track for me last year. When he sent it back, I noticed the reverb was lush and big, different from the typical reverbs I use regularly, (Relab XL480, EMT-140), Ocean Way). I asked him, and he said it was a Lexicon reverb he got on eBay for $80. Now I know the Relab is extremely close to the real thing, but somehow the cheap Lexicon hardware was bigger and richer. I didn't know it was hardware when I first listened, I just commented about it and then he told me it was a Lexi. I've begun using the 7th Heaven Bricasti style reverb in the place of both the Ocean Way and Relab, and my tracks are cleaner. Sooner of later I'm going to try hardware verbs again. I'd like to start with a PCM70 or M300. I loved one track that NoFilterChuck posted using the Eventide H9 footpedal, so that's a consideration too. I actually mixing a song with both and now I can give the answer to myself. The Lexicon Native PCM Bundle, the VVV and the 7H all can sound big and lush as the hardware ones. Becasue its a plug in its more fumbleing with the mouse insteat of setting up a few knobs and bang the verb is there. Special the MV 2 becasue its a set and forget unit if the thing fits the mix. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 3, 2017 8:01:43 GMT -6
If you guys haven't tried the PSP 2445, do yourself a favor and try it. Definitely a specialty plug that doesn't work on everything, but man it's killer.
I really think reverb and effects are probably the most specialized aspect of mixing. I think the majority of issues with reverb are wrong settings choices and amounts rather than plugin vs hardware (I'm not claiming to have some specialized grasp either). I think it's more likely that you (nobody specific, the plural you) landed on a patch that works in whatever medium and that's swaying your perception of the hardware/software debate in terms of reverb.
Also, man I love the reverbs on the First Aid Kit records. Killer application of verb. So wet, but doesn't step on any toes. Same deal with the Lana Del Rey stuff.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 3, 2017 9:40:23 GMT -6
Those tracks do sound really good and BIG. I like that. I preferred the FAK sound more. It had a kind of long tail that remained full sounding. The Eventide H9 foot pedal I heard on NoFilterChuck's track sounded kinda like this too.
I agree with you regarding choices and settings. I pretty much scroll through presets and pick one. On the Relab, I like Medium Hall HD, on the Seventh Heaven I like London Plate. Occasionally I lengthen pre delay, and on even few occasions, I HPF on the verb, but that's about as far as I go. I bet if I was more experienced and judicious, and not so anxious to get busy recording, I might find a better reverb fit for some of my songs. This is why I bought the basic model 7th Heaven, to clean up my verb a bit. The Lexicon sound of the Relab is great for feeling the side walls, but not so great for depth, and it's inherently a little wooly in the low end, good as it is.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 3, 2017 17:02:58 GMT -6
I really think reverb and effects are probably the most specialized aspect of mixing. I think the majority of issues with reverb are wrong settings choices and amounts rather than plugin vs hardware (I'm not claiming to have some specialized grasp either). I think it's more likely that you (nobody specific, the plural you) landed on a patch that works in whatever medium and that's swaying your perception of the hardware/software debate in terms of reverb. This makes sense. It sounds like the most logical explanation to me.  |
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Post by notneeson on Aug 3, 2017 17:12:02 GMT -6
I use plate IRs a lot, and get compliments on my verbs from pro engineers. I also have a friend who has made records with name producers and chides me that my rock production is too "Blue Oyster Cult." Must be all that cow bell.
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 4, 2017 9:51:42 GMT -6
Older hardware verb's are still rather popular here. I get all sorts here, older Lexicons, some Alesis plus others.
A stack of hot-rodded Lexicons with a Bricasti M7 will make you forget about software verbs quickly.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 6, 2017 10:50:46 GMT -6
If you have a hybrid setup and enough mixer and convertor channels try sending a plugin wet only reverb on its own dedicated reverb buss out of the DAW through its own D/A's and re-route the reverb return back into the console as you would with any typical outboard reverb. This gets you closer to external hardware reverbs in terms of the AD/DA conversion process (actually DA/AD in this situation) along with analog summing using the console's mix buss. This is how I work. Maybe part of why I've not been too tweaky about reverb? |
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 7, 2017 7:47:51 GMT -6
Older hardware verb's are still rather popular here. I get all sorts here, older Lexicons, some Alesis plus others. A stack of hot-rodded Lexicons with a Bricasti M7 will make you forget about software verbs quickly. I made some IRs by the Alesis MV II and some of them, not all, sound exactly the same like the HW. I like the fact of real knobs and dialing in numbers. In a hybrid setup using EQ and adding predelay is also a big plus for the old Midiverbs which someone can get for 30$ on ebay. If someone loves instant 80s snare sound the MVII is killer. It reminds me on so many records... I guess the MVII was not only popular in hobby studios some of the big guys must have use them? |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 7, 2017 8:05:00 GMT -6
Jim Williams, which Lexicon do you see most often for modding? Can you please give me a general idea of what you would typically do to them and what the difference is? I'm looking at the PCM70 and the model 300.
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 7, 2017 10:03:44 GMT -6
Those are two I don't work on here. Unobtainium parts.
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