ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 28, 2017 16:53:39 GMT -6
Since this subject comes up in every clone thread, more so in the budget clone threads I thought we should try to consolidate this discussion.
Do we use the vintage examples? How do we decide what's a true vintage example vs a restored piece ? Who do we consider an expert to judge what a Vintage piece should sound like?
Do we judge the lower price recreations on a different scale because of there price point ? Or just forget what they say on the faceplate do we judge them as other gear at this price?
I'll wait to weigh in.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 28, 2017 18:32:17 GMT -6
I think it's hard enough just deciding how the originals should sound. I mean what bench make are we to use? I'm not an expert on vintage gear, but I know enough to know that time has aged gear differently. Most vintage, original ________ (fill in the blank) don't sound exactly alike.
The only vintage gear I own are a 78 Marshall JMP and a 71 Fender twin. And they don't sound like any other jmp/twins I've heard (from the same year). Although they all share the same '"sound" or "tone" or "vibe" or what ever you want to call it.
So where does that leave us with clones? IMHO they should be judged like any other piece of gear. Do they sound good? Are they reliable? Build quality? Customer service? Etc.
Those are the only questions that matter to me any way.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 28, 2017 19:59:10 GMT -6
Its like with everything else, if it works I use it if not it goes away...
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Post by stratboy on Jul 28, 2017 20:06:35 GMT -6
The cloneness tells you the flavor. Then you just apply that flavor to the musical/recording problem you are trying to solve. How many of us are obsessively trying to recreate an exact sound from an older era? That's the only time the exact cloneness matters.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 28, 2017 20:36:09 GMT -6
Clones are about challenging an established value proposition and about recognizing that not everyone can either afford classic vintage gear, its upkeep or would afford it even if they had the money.
The corollary of this question is another question, is high end gear actually worth what you pay for it ? To some, yes, to others , no.
If you start with a $5,000 budget and then double it, multiple times: each time does the sonic value of your work also double ? We know the answer is no.
So, for me clones are about redefining or creating a new market segment from within the established ( arguably entrenched) attitudes about sonic gear price and value.
Bottom line is buy what you appreciate, what you can afford and what helps you get your work done. Its really a personal decision with no categorically right or wrong answer ?
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Post by kilroyrock on Jul 28, 2017 21:11:26 GMT -6
I hope not negatively. LTL has proven you can get the sound with modern parts when ran through the right quality modern "cheap" parts. I liken the selling of a true spec la2a selling for 3500 like a to-spec 69 mustang selling for 40k. Why? It doesn't have back cams, rear defogging window, AC(stock), or a 6 speaker sound system?
An original spec mustang for it's feature set is a 15k car.
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Post by Coil Audio on Jul 28, 2017 21:59:03 GMT -6
By height...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 30, 2017 19:14:35 GMT -6
The former gearpimp in me drives me to look at the budget clones some what differently, I can't help but make price a major factor and not quite judge these head to head with Vintage or top dollar clones.
I Also realize few examples of Vintage clones are true Vintage, most of The ones I have worked with have some i arcs replaced along the way. I also know many Top dollar products that have been billed as clones have had more of their own sound (think Manley Pultec).
At the end though the one thing I hold most important is if a piece is a useable piece no matter if it nails the sound of the Original or not !
I really judge it as a comparable piece at the price point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 19:17:49 GMT -6
Sort of a my U67 clone is bigger than your U67 clone kinda thing? If that's how we're going to play it within a year every U67 clone with bend a mic stand in half.. |
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Post by EmRR on Jul 30, 2017 21:08:58 GMT -6
All limiters should be 8RU minimum, like the old days. You knew it was really starting to go to shit when Gates rolled out the SA-39B revision at only 7RU.
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Post by jakeharris on Jul 31, 2017 14:50:14 GMT -6
Common-sense rules this one. If high-end, it should be compared directly to vintage units and anything else in any price-range that competes. In my world, if it can't compete in any way with the vintage or other similar units, then it's not high-end (regardless of how much it costs).
If an obviously budget deal, with inevitable corners cut, compare it to other units with the same corners cut, or... whatever else you can afford! That's what low-end is all about, getting the best possible sound and bang for the buck, on a budget.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2017 15:09:13 GMT -6
A good starting point for any hardware, clone or what ever - if it sounds no better than your fave plugs then it's pointless.
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Post by jsteiger on Jul 31, 2017 17:20:55 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 31, 2017 17:37:15 GMT -6
One day, when i get out of this business, so I can afford the real things, I'm gonna put all of this to rest by doing extensive testing.
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Post by c0rtland on Jul 31, 2017 18:07:21 GMT -6
Someone should make a YouTube channel for exactly this. Have a standard. Kind of like how Ifixit has tear down videos. Do the same thing for every release. Use the same test for every piece of gear like war at zenpro.
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Post by jakeharris on Jul 31, 2017 18:48:31 GMT -6
Someone should make a YouTube channel for exactly this. Have a standard. Kind of like how Ifixit has tear down videos. Do the same thing for every release. Use the same test for every piece of gear like war at zenpro. Those tests are inherently flawed – every piece of gear has a unique sweetspot. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 31, 2017 19:19:06 GMT -6
LTL has proven you can get the sound with modern parts when ran through the right quality modern "cheap" parts. I can guarantee you that LTL is not using "cheap" parts. Brad sources the absolute best he can for the job at hand. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 31, 2017 19:19:50 GMT -6
Not in my world. Height =  |
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Post by drbill on Jul 31, 2017 19:22:24 GMT -6
A good starting point for any hardware, clone or what ever - if it sounds no better than your fave plugs then it's pointless. Agreed. Thank God none of my hardware fails the plug in comparison test. |
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Post by wiz on Jul 31, 2017 19:25:54 GMT -6
I would judge them on their own merits, at their price point. At a certain price point, after sales service becomes important.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by kilroyrock on Jul 31, 2017 19:28:20 GMT -6
LTL has proven you can get the sound with modern parts when ran through the right quality modern "cheap" parts. I can guarantee you that LTL is not using "cheap" parts. Brad sources the absolute best he can for the job at hand. I was afraid it might get construed that way. I was referencing the use of modern smt and manufacturing vs through hole and manual labor to place them, which seems to be looked down upon when used in the budget clones. I know Brad isn't sourcing cheap, that's what the quotes were for. Have no fear I'm on your side! |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 31, 2017 19:34:31 GMT -6
There are so many factors when comparing things, it's almost impossible to have a fair comparison. Is the vintage gear to be judged as it is, or was it in fact different when it first was made.
If a product uses a similar model number that's meant to let you know exactly what kind of mic to expect, it's only fair to compare them to the real thing. That said, when it comes to clones, like the Stam or Warm mics, I first judge them by the competition in the price range.
If an 87 clone that sells for $600 -$800 sounds as good or better than other mics in that range, than it's already a viable choice in its own right, whether it's a clone or not. Then, if you do get to compare a relatively low price clone to the original, you then have to decide if the difference is too much for you to happily continue to use and enjoy the mic.
I think it takes someone with a lot of experience to judge well. I used a U87 every day for a dozen years. If I use any U87 clone, I'll know in a heartbeat where it stands.
People have also pointed out that no two mics ever seem to sound the same, especially those with some age on them. So even the benchmark that's being cloned may not be the perfect example of its kind.
I haven't tried the Warm or Stam 87 yet, but kcat has two Warm WA87's, and they sound better that his fancy U47 and C12 clones did.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 1, 2017 1:18:03 GMT -6
Someone should make a YouTube channel for exactly this. Have a standard. Kind of like how Ifixit has tear down videos. Do the same thing for every release. Use the same test for every piece of gear like war at zenpro. I trust Youtube videos about as much as I trust the average Washington DC politician. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 1, 2017 6:56:43 GMT -6
I'm no scientist, but my videos don't lie :-)
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Post by drbill on Aug 1, 2017 17:41:30 GMT -6
I believe that. But do they tell the TRUTH?
IMO, that can really only be discerned with a piece of gear in your own room, on your own time. I can't make any judgement on a "video" test / review / demo.
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