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Post by subspace on Jul 23, 2017 10:56:13 GMT -6
Inspired by the Massdrop thread, I want to ask about tracking phones. When I opened up shop in the mid-90s I had four pairs of AKG K240Ms in the tracking room. Semi-open back, 600ohm beasties driven off a padded down PA amp. I killed one of the ears on three of them over time and picked up four of the easier to drive Sony MDR7506s. Again, semi-open back phones that would bleed click and be forced to unhealthy levels to fight room bleed, and again, three pairs with one dead ear over the years.
At that point, the studio business was slowing down and I just bought four pairs of MoreMe phones for tracking. Iso phones with no bleed, snapped shut when players dropped them and when an ear blew, new diaphragms were a free replacement. Only issue was having to listen to them, ouch.
Now I'm scrolling through the Massdrop site and see these AKG M220s for $50/pair. Look like albino cousins to the newer K240 Studio phones with the easier to drive impedance, so I google those and find them for $51/pair on Reverb. Hmm, looks like ye olde Austrian phones have been Shanghai'd by Harman, but that's another discussion.
What I'm wondering about is switching back to semi-open phones in the tracking room. Yes, they get pushed harder to fight bleed and become a consumable. Yes, when the singer turns his head on a hot vocal mic you get a bonus click track on your vocal take. Yes, players leave them laying all over a room while you're overdubbing and you get bonus ambient bleed if you're not fastidious about unplugging unused pairs.
But that's just about making my job easier and I'm interested in making the player adjusting to monitoring on cans more comfortable. It seems the room bleed on semi-open phones was easier to adjust to for a player than the head-vice of closed back phones. I noticed guys would slide one ear off on the iso cans often to combat this. Basically, I seem to have created the classic studio paradigm of more isolation = great for the engineer = sucks for the players.
So I've been moving back towards tracking amps in the room with the players and now I'm thinking of going back to semi-open cans as well. I still have pairs of the AKG and Sony phones that get used for overdubs, but I'm wondering about splashing out for a new set of quality closed phones vs. going back to the semi-opens and just using the MoreMes as problem solvers when they arise?
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Post by joseph on Jul 23, 2017 12:41:42 GMT -6
It seems like there is no right answer, and you just need to have some options.
I always liked more open cans when I record myself, and agree with you that semi-open are better for ensemble/in the room recording. Otherwise the players can't really hear each other.
Course my favorite thing is not to use headphones at all and just record quieter while using the right microphones.
HD280s have more isolation than the 7506s but are kind of midrangey and have more cable noise. Whereas some people think the 7506s sound hyped and prefer the 280s or Sony V6s, or they think the AKGs are not punchy enough.
I had a vocalist here the other day who much preferred a pair of Sennheiser Momentums I had lying around to 280s. The momentums have less isolation and you can really get into the music, since they have a fair amount of bass and are prettier sounding than 7506s. So perhaps prosumer headphones are something to consider.
I did try to convince him to try tracking with monitors, but then he insisted on more isolation. As per usual his performance was immediately energized with the monitors.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 23, 2017 12:43:36 GMT -6
The Sony MDR-7506 are closed headphones, according to their specs (and to my experience). I was going to recommend them when I saw the thread title! I find the Beyerdynamic 770 give a bit more isolation, but they aren't as easy to drive.
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Post by mulmany on Jul 23, 2017 13:34:52 GMT -6
I like the Extreme Isolation EX-25 cans for tracking, but I also have less isolating cans for singers. They have all the replacement parts available, so don't have to worry about not getting parts if someone breaks them, or a driver fails.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 23, 2017 13:38:08 GMT -6
I think the first thing hear is that you miss understand what closed and open back refer to, it has less to do with isolation and everything to do with how the backside of the driver is loaded.
Sealed back is the rear of the driver in a sealed chamber.
Open back is either a driver's rear in a vented or no chamber.
In theory closed back should offer more isolation, but it's really how you do it.
Beyer seams to be one of the few who still build a real studio headphone, Sennhieser would be the second.
More and more studio owners seam to buy a couple of pairs of different higher quality phones and a bunch of matching cheap POS for general abuse.
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Post by subspace on Jul 23, 2017 14:55:33 GMT -6
Ah, so open/closed just refers to driver-loading and bleed is a separate, perhaps related issue. That would explain why I find Sonys to bleed highs like a stuck pig, yet they're closed back.
Yes, I have the AKG and Sony options for singer preference and a bunch of matching POS iso phones for the poor band. My understanding was the HD280s were the iso champs in $99 land, then Sonys, then AKGs, but none of them isolate like the POS head-clamp "SQ-be-damned" iso cans. I will always need those, I've been cutting some acoustic songwriters lately that want a pretty loud tempo map in their cans and there won't be anything in the final mix to cover traces of bleed.
I've also been tracking an acoustic guitarist live in the room with drums and bass so the only way they're hearing him is via a DI in their phones. That's really the session that sent me down this path of inquiry. We'll be replacing with a mic'd acoustic, but needed that guide acoustic played live. Headphone bleed wouldn't have been an issue so I think I just realized the iso cans weren't really the right tool for the job, they hurt more than helped compared to if I still had a full set of AKGs/Sonys. Just needed the acoustic and some bass in the ears and let the drums bleed on through...
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Post by winetree on Jul 23, 2017 15:23:02 GMT -6
This isn't about closed or opened Just my headphone rant. I have thousands of dollars worth of headphones in the tech room waiting for repair. I'm tired of giving musicians expensive headphones only to be trashed. So I purchased 10 pairs of these. www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8323 Read the reviews. They are always welcome to bring in their own headphones. The expensive ones are for my use or caring users. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 23, 2017 15:49:07 GMT -6
This isn't about closed or opened Just my headphone rant. I have thousands of dollars worth of headphones in the tech room waiting for repair. I'm tired of giving musicians expensive headphones only to be trashed. So I purchased 10 pairs of these. www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=8323 Read the reviews. They are always welcome to bring in their own headphones. The expensive ones are for my use or caring users. It was always fun to watch somebody going from all the expensive favorites to Cheap Koss and noticing the Koss lasted longer😎 But Beyer always seamed like the one headphone that lasted ! On a similar rant years ago I was cleaning out the attic junk room of the kids old school and found 12 pair of the old Telex AV phones that you just couldn't kill , well they wanted to spend a couple of hundred on the new cool looking phones, it took days of explaining that these Telex would last forever and could be sanatized! 6 years later the only thing they have needed is new Plugs! Find me a modern headphone that could last 30 years plus at an elementary school! |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 23, 2017 17:39:12 GMT -6
I track with hd280 and shure sh440 ... would never mix on either ... the Sennheiser is great for bleed and clients listen loud .. shure more realistic, more bleed and about equal comfort ... both $89-99 however I'm sure some of the audio technical phones would do fine for half the price 5 pair for $300 - 4 ath- m20x , 1 ATH - m50x www.audio-technica.com/cms/headphones/99fe8bcd5ba07430/index.html |
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Post by nnajar on Jul 23, 2017 20:37:01 GMT -6
For comfort I prefer the akg 240 all day long. And for tracking they sound fine to me- very easy to listen to as they're slightly mid scooped but without exaggerated low end. Sony 7506 are better for clarity but are less physically comfortable, but still fine. I hate wearing the ath m50 because they feel like a vice on my head, and they're somewhat mid scooped but with an exaggerated low end, but around here, when given the choice, singers tend to like them the best. I think it's probably because they're so tight, they bleed less and so they're hearing what sounds like a finished record in the foldback.
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Post by winetree on Jul 23, 2017 21:11:48 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 23, 2017 21:26:15 GMT -6
These may well be from the same factory that makes the K240, just like the 4 pairs of $10 Target bargain phones I bought the kid are sonic ringers for Beats! The last 2 new pair of K240's I had in hand felt inferior to a pair of K240's in every way! For years one of the most dependable headphones we sold were the Fostex t40rp's! |
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Post by popmann on Jul 24, 2017 11:35:01 GMT -6
Bleed is mostly irrelevant compared to artist comfort with the sound.
Here's an ironic tie in to another current thread---the only way you can ever hear headphone bleed EVER in an end result? Is when you're feeding someone a click track. The frequencies of lots of those click sounds will bleed from ANY headphones....and much louder than actual music....and since it's intended to never be heard by the public, it won't just gel like all other bleed does.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 24, 2017 11:52:49 GMT -6
Miktek has a line of headphones worth checking out. There are just an open and a closed model selling for the very same price. They self-adjust to minimize damage. They come with a long and a short cord rather than a coil cord. These guys appear to have really done their homework. I haven't heard them yet but this company definitely has ears.
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Post by subspace on Jul 24, 2017 14:38:04 GMT -6
These may well be from the same factory that makes the K240, just like the 4 pairs of $10 Target bargain phones I bought the kid are sonic ringers for Beats! The last 2 new pair of K240's I had in hand felt inferior to a pair of K240's in every way! For years one of the most dependable headphones we sold were the Fostex t40rp's! Yeah, guess I'll be finding out as I just ordered three pairs. If they use the the same basic construction, I have plenty of genuine parts donors on hand, the back of the ear pieces appear to be sealed on these though.... |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 24, 2017 14:43:32 GMT -6
These may well be from the same factory that makes the K240, just like the 4 pairs of $10 Target bargain phones I bought the kid are sonic ringers for Beats! The last 2 new pair of K240's I had in hand felt inferior to a pair of K240's in every way! For years one of the most dependable headphones we sold were the Fostex t40rp's! Yeah, guess I'll be finding out as I just ordered three pairs. If they use the the same basic construction, I have plenty of genuine parts donors on hand, the back of the ear pieces appear to be sealed on these though.... Let su know! |
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 24, 2017 16:45:16 GMT -6
Will be trying the Beyer 770 Pro soon as well! Will post feedback
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Post by subspace on Jul 26, 2017 22:32:37 GMT -6
Wow, ordered on the 24th a couple posts above and they attempted delivery yesterday the 25th. How is that even possible? Signed for them today and then the EQP-KTs were delivered a little later. For $20 headphones I'm quite pleased, much more comfy than my original K240Ms, sound is actually hifi compared to the MoreMe iso cans, not as crispy as 7506s, but you could pick out HF EQ changes easily. More bass than the the K240Ms, closer to the 7506 in the bass. The cable is long with a nice 1/4" adapator screwed onto a molded 1/8" plug:  |
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Post by winetree on Jul 26, 2017 23:15:42 GMT -6
I will called a pair yesterday. Monoprice warehouse is in Rancho Cucamonga. They have a new show room with demo rooms.
Guitars, Mics, Amps, Cords
Check them out.
Monoprice.com
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 27, 2017 15:33:05 GMT -6
Wow, ordered on the 24th a couple posts above and they attempted delivery yesterday the 25th. How is that even possible? Signed for them today and then the EQP-KTs were delivered a little later. For $20 headphones I'm quite pleased, much more comfy than my original K240Ms, sound is actually hifi compared to the MoreMe iso cans, not as crispy as 7506s, but you could pick out HF EQ changes easily. More bass than the the K240Ms, closer to the 7506 in the bass. The cable is long with a nice 1/4" adapator screwed onto a molded 1/8" plug: Yeah that same thing happened to me FedEx delivered my headphones from vintage King in Nashville in less than 12 hours. I missed it because normally I get a notification when they're going to drop it ofr. So next day they drop them off and literally less than an hour later my other sound Anchor stand was delivered. Both fed ex lol.. Hope you enjoy your new headphones. I am really excited about my new BeyerDynamic DT770 Pro because all parts are replaceable and they are a big step up from the phones I have now. Plus a great mixing and mastering engineer named Luke Pimentel uses them and recommends them highly as well as two other Mix engineer's who own them! |
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Post by ragan on Jul 27, 2017 15:35:56 GMT -6
I just did a bunch of testing of all the usual suspects. I've got AT m50s, AKG240s, Senn 280s and regularly use Beyer 770s. Not in love with anybof them, for various reasons.
Came home with a pair of Senn HD-6's. They weren't even on my radar but I loved em. Both the Beyers and the m50s always come across as a little scooped to me. The 280s are flatter but sound too midrangey for me. The Senn HD-6s sit right in between. They sound large to me. Flat but not sterile. Clear but not crispy (I hate hyped highs in cans, I want to be able to track at a healthy volume and not have it blast and desensitize me with 12-15k all day).
Anyway, we'll see. Worth checking out if you're in the market for closed back cans.
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Post by ragan on Jul 29, 2017 16:46:19 GMT -6
Update: I love the HD-6's. Love em. My favorite tracking cans by a good margin. Tracked some drums with them the other night and it was a joy. Big, full, natural with excellent isolation. Just really pleasant and immersive to track with. Can go very loud with no pinched bite.
I'm a big fan already.
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