|
Post by adamjbrass on Jul 19, 2017 16:20:44 GMT -6
put up a lightweight contender, weighing in at $599, hailing from Nashville, The Stager Microphones SR2N, and in the other corner, a heavyweight champ from Pasadena, CA, weighing in at $2520, the AEA Ribbon Mics R44CE. For this test, we used a CLEAN Direct Injection from an Electric Guitar track provided by Curtis at Dragon Ship Studios. Chain used:n PRS McCarty Hollowbody II into the NPNG Diehilo Active DI -- NPNG 2NW -- Apogee Symphony Mk1. Then I sent it out of my Apogee Mk1 into a REAMP box [the one called REAMP] and then into my 1950 Oahu with the mics as close as possible. I had each mic feeding the NPNG 2NW with about 40db of gain on each. They are almost identical output level. I recorded these 24/44 into Schmo Tools 12.5.2 +4 reference = -18dBFS www.dropbox.com/sh/o9q2a7ed3x2k3uq/AAATLKe_b6LQ0O582pKi35gka?dl=0
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Jul 19, 2017 16:46:57 GMT -6
Close as possible meaning to each other, or the amp? Distance from amp?
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Jul 19, 2017 17:09:46 GMT -6
Close as possible meaning to each other, or the amp? Distance from amp? As close as possible to each other. The Magnets are strong and size plays a factor. But you get the idea. About 1ft away.
|
|
|
Post by noah shain on Jul 19, 2017 18:24:12 GMT -6
What's your opinion Adam?
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Jul 19, 2017 19:14:28 GMT -6
I could listen to the Stager all day long.
so, I guess there's my opinion!
|
|
|
Post by hadaja on Jul 19, 2017 19:54:17 GMT -6
Was there a fraction more top end on the 44 then the stager. Slightly more clearer as well. The stager was a little more meatier. Differences were minimal and this was a quick 1 x pass listen to test file ONE.wav on each with ear buds. I will have to get back to this as I am extremely interested in the outcome of the other files. You donthave a SR-1a for the same test do you?
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Jul 20, 2017 6:29:26 GMT -6
What's your opinion Adam? My first thought was.....holy shit that is close. And my second thought was, Should I sell this 44 and buy a Stager SR2N or SR1A. But then I started really listening to the mics with my switcher into different preamps. I use the NPNG 2NW as my first initial test barometer, since the signal doesn't really change through that device. You can hear what the mics really sound like, but then I switched to my preferred pre with Ribbons [most all of the time for the work that I do] which is the Greg Hanks BA-660. It just drives them to Line level better than anything I have tried. And its extremely clean, although its a tube-amp. This preamp sounds BETTER than real life. IMHO. Anyway, I thought the SR2N was impressively comparing to my 44. Which I love. I feel like the Stager has MANY of the same qualities and also unique ones as well. So they are different, but since they do similar things, I was interested to hear how close this mic came. And honestly, see if it could replace this $2500 investment, because I might be so bold. I was feeling the same when I shot out the SR1A honestly, but that mic comes within a red-c hair of the sound of the 44 and adds something else unique and exciting. So its still different. But the Wide/Creamy/Weighty/Largeness of the SR1A is comparing a little more to the 44's girth. I def felt like I could get that mic and be happy when I tried it. Compared to this AEA. But honestly, they are just so different and its hard to not like or prefer either of them. So I just run with the choices I made and be happy. Anyone would be happy to use any one of these mics. Its like when you have only $5 left in your pocket, but some people only have 5cents in their pocket! We're doing alright. But the Stager represents a nice value to anyone seeking it. By the end of my test, I decided that I really like the way the 44 sounds and right now do not want to sell it. Its a thing, and long ago, I decided it was "my thing"...hehe. Anyway, As to the differences I heard with my various quirky tests [not really talking about the shootout here] I feel the 44 had different low end, proximity effect at further distance and an interestingly wider/larger/creamier lower mid range. The top is different, bit more soft mojo on the SR2N. Bit more clarity on the 44. The Lows are Bloated on the 44. The Lows are deep on the Stager, but controlled. The 44 has slightly more sensitivity. I noted when you put the Stager Closer up to the source, it starts to sound nearly identical to that vibe. a Few inches difference. But further back away from the 44 still sounds big and hefty/hearty in the lows. The 44 has slightly higher output, not sure how many dB we could count, but its a fraction of a few. Overall, I feel this mic is killer and wish it was around when I decided to pull the trigger on this AEA mic. I guess I don't have enough ribbon mics yet. Will buy one from Matt when I recuperate my funds for gear.
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Jul 20, 2017 6:33:08 GMT -6
Was there a fraction more top end on the 44 then the stager. Slightly more clearer as well. The stager was a little more meatier. Differences were minimal and this was a quick 1 x pass listen to test file ONE.wav on each with ear buds. I will have to get back to this as I am extremely interested in the outcome of the other files. You donthave a SR-1a for the same test do you? I can see if Matt has one available to send over for the shootout, Trust me on this, its definitely coming closer for your cash.... But its scary how close $600 bones will get you,
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Jul 20, 2017 8:17:53 GMT -6
Looking forward to checking these samples out. Downloaded and waiting for a free moment.
Not trying to poop on anything, but relay a personal experience I've recounted in other threads: I had a loaner 44B for awhile once, and after it was gone the artist decided to punch a few phrases. There was also banjo and acoustic bleed in the vocal, so that had to be rehearsed and played until dynamics and delivery matched in every regard. A Fathead II with Lundahl was picked as the closest thing available, and the punch really couldn't be detected once the performance aspects were nailed. Today I would be unable to find the punch. FWIW.
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Jul 20, 2017 8:58:04 GMT -6
So basically, everything compares to everything!
I like it
;-P
|
|
|
Post by bricejchandler on Jul 20, 2017 10:21:47 GMT -6
While the Stager sounds good here, I def would not sell my R44 based on these samples. The AEA sounds thicker and to my ears generally more defined, but then after auditioning dozens and dozens of ribbon mics, it's the one I kept so my ears gravitate towards that sound.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Jul 20, 2017 11:21:58 GMT -6
While the Stager sounds good here, I def would not sell my R44 based on these samples. The AEA sounds thicker and to my ears generally more defined, but then after auditioning dozens and dozens of ribbon mics, it's the one I kept so my ears gravitate towards that sound. The AEA44 is an awful lot like my ancient RCA44 (which was re-ribboned and given some new life by Wes Dooley, so that's probably why)... my RCA44 has the girth you are referring to, but when you say 'defined' I hear distortion. I've always found this with RCA ribbons and their clones. There's a bit of mild overload in the high end that makes them seem a little brighter than they actually are. YMMV
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Jul 23, 2017 14:11:14 GMT -6
The do sound damn close. I feel the small differences are easily matched through placement. The 44 sounds a tad close (barely) due to proximity, some of the mids popping more clearly in the SR2N might match the 44 if the 44 proximity was matched exactly.
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 26, 2017 15:42:18 GMT -6
Concur with Doug and the proximity of these guys - Not to rain on the testing parade as this is sort of a daunting task to begin with - but we've found that for low wattage recording amps (such as the oahu used here) you can put the sr-2n right up on the speaker with no issues ALA 'sm57 style' - it only gets bigger and better. The AEA 44 - i have no experience with personally, but with an RCA 44 id start at the same distance adam did - and then slowly move it closer/back/side to side until the magic spot is found. Not saying adam didnt do this but its hard to keep two very different ribbon mics to 'speak' in a similar fashion or close enough to analyze with a fine tooth comb -so for that i applaud this effort.
Ideally, a passive ribbon mic should be amplified downstream by something with a transformer coupled input as intended by its original design. In the past (80's til now) ribbons were closeted due to sounding 'shitty' when used with an SSL or other transformerless consoles/preamps - but somehow worked great when plugged into that old crusty tube preamp being used as a doorstop in the corner of the tech closet. Transformers like to 'talk' to each other on the audio line and that language cannot be replaced/supplemented by electronic balancing when it comes to a passive ribbon, sure some heroic SS efforts can be implemented - but at a cost much greater than a simple transformer can provide easily. Impedance is very important with these simple passive/mechanical devices and only a proper transformer on both ends can keep it 'stiff and happy' enough to reveal its intended performance. The 'distortions' that people refer to are usually due to these floppy impedances in the signal chain between the mic and pre.
Id be interested in a shoot out with the sub $1500 AEA mics against the Stagers - seems like a more 'fair' fight but this pretty much sums it up pretty well. Big Thanks to Adam for this!
|
|
|
Post by stormymondays on Jul 26, 2017 17:32:56 GMT -6
My pair of SR-2N arrived today. Within seconds of testing it in front of a drum kit (Blumlein pair) one of the mics started to cut out. I assume a faulty/damaged ribbon. I'm really careful with handling, and haven't blown any ribbon on any other mic, so I suppose it was already damaged in transit or something.
The few seconds while it worked, the pair sounded good. Great low end. The capture was a bit roomier than I thought it'd be. I can't wait to have it replaced so I can resume testing.
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Jul 27, 2017 8:07:03 GMT -6
Concur with Doug and the proximity of these guys - Not to rain on the testing parade as this is sort of a daunting task to begin with - but we've found that for low wattage recording amps (such as the oahu used here) you can put the sr-2n right up on the speaker with no issues ALA 'sm57 style' - it only gets bigger and better. The AEA 44 - i have no experience with personally, but with an RCA 44 id start at the same distance adam did - and then slowly move it closer/back/side to side until the magic spot is found. Not saying adam didnt do this but its hard to keep two very different ribbon mics to 'speak' in a similar fashion or close enough to analyze with a fine tooth comb -so for that i applaud this effort. Ideally, a passive ribbon mic should be amplified downstream by something with a transformer coupled input as intended by its original design. In the past (80's til now) ribbons were closeted due to sounding 'shitty' when used with an SSL or other transformerless consoles/preamps - but somehow worked great when plugged into that old crusty tube preamp being used as a doorstop in the corner of the tech closet. Transformers like to 'talk' to each other on the audio line and that language cannot be replaced/supplemented by electronic balancing when it comes to a passive ribbon, sure some heroic SS efforts can be implemented - but at a cost much greater than a simple transformer can provide easily. Impedance is very important with these simple passive/mechanical devices and only a proper transformer on both ends can keep it 'stiff and happy' enough to reveal its intended performance. The 'distortions' that people refer to are usually due to these floppy impedances in the signal chain between the mic and pre. Id be interested in a shoot out with the sub $1500 AEA mics against the Stagers - seems like a more 'fair' fight but this pretty much sums it up pretty well. Big Thanks to Adam for this! Right on! Was a fun shootout. But alas, only will yield so much information Hopefully enough to make an informed decision about a purchase hehe Anyway, I can tell you I noticed the exact same thing with the Proximity effect on the Stager. When its hugging the source, it absolutely gets bigger. The 44 just does not need to be close to anything. Sometimes I hug things with it. Things that need a Hug....but mostly, I pull "Andre the Giant" back off the sound all the time. I do like to put mics on my Oahu close, but I typically use about 1 foot or 2 with most things. like tube mics and stuff. Though, thats just my perference. If we had a blues harp mic and a real player, I would modify my approach! But, I like the air in between the speaker and the mic. But I get why people close mic'it. I would do that if tracking live. And also use the Nulls to my advantage! When you get a vocal in tight on the SR2N it starts to sound identical to the Warm and Cozy feel I get with the AEA44. Obviously they are different, so...In the price range, the R84 might be a good one to shootout with, since it has less-proximity effect compared to the 44. I have a client who shot those out and preferred the Stager. Everyone's ears may gravitate towards something :-P Like mine, when I plug my 44 into the CA-286. It makes me think Jim Morrison is hovering over my shoulder. Interesting info about the transformers. The NPNG is a transformer-less front end, but uses a Jensen output transformer. I think it has a 7-transistor discrete front end, before it even gets to the 13 transistor op amp. Karl told me only 5 transistors are in the path. The remainder are simply creating an "environment" haha. Needless to say, the NPNG blows the roof of a Squalid Stale Logix Preamp! LOL
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Jul 27, 2017 8:15:09 GMT -6
My pair of SR-2N arrived today. Within seconds of testing it in front of a drum kit (Blumlein pair) one of the mics started to cut out. I assume a faulty/damaged ribbon. I'm really careful with handling, and haven't blown any ribbon on any other mic, so I suppose it was already damaged in transit or something. The few seconds while it worked, the pair sounded good. Great low end. The capture was a bit roomier than I thought it'd be. I can't wait to have it replaced so I can resume testing. dang, sorry to hear, I am sure Matt will sort you out fast. He has been great to work and has awesome customer service!
|
|
|
Post by stormymondays on Jul 27, 2017 8:17:37 GMT -6
dang, sorry to hear, I am sure Matt will sort you out fast. He has been great to work and has awesome customer service! I bought them from KMR Audio in the UK (I'm in Spain), but I hear they're pretty good with customer service too. I take it that you haven't found the mics to be specially fragile, right?
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Jul 27, 2017 8:42:51 GMT -6
dang, sorry to hear, I am sure Matt will sort you out fast. He has been great to work and has awesome customer service! I bought them from KMR Audio in the UK (I'm in Spain), but I hear they're pretty good with customer service too. I take it that you haven't found the mics to be specially fragile, right? Matt ships them to us well packed, and I have not had any problems myself. In use, the Stager's handle anything you throw at them, but like all Ribbon mics, care should be taken. In your case, best thing to do is notify KMR and have them sort it out. Did they pack them well?
|
|
|
Post by stormymondays on Jul 27, 2017 8:54:04 GMT -6
Yes, I think they were well packed. Well, it was just random bad luck. Fortunately I'm not in a hurry for the replacement!
I can see in this video that they are safe in front of a bass drum as long as the air is not hitting them:
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 27, 2017 21:45:16 GMT -6
Yes, I think they were well packed. Well, it was just random bad luck. Fortunately I'm not in a hurry for the replacement! I can see in this video that they are safe in front of a bass drum as long as the air is not hitting them: If it makes you feel any better - we had a pair of SR-2Ns arrive and one was DOA completely as well. Matt had one in stock and took care of it the next day. We've also had Coles and RCA mics come back from service busted over the years due to being beaten in transit. I know both the UPS and USPS unloading belts can shoot packages up to 40mph or something ridiculous - my UPS guy always like to joke about our FRAGILE stickers we put on our boxes due to the speed those belts fire stuff around.
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 27, 2017 21:48:14 GMT -6
Needless to say, the NPNG blows the roof of a Squalid Stale Logix Preamp! LOL HA! Yeah. i mean- Who wants to plug their mics into something that looks like a dell computer inside.?
|
|
|
Post by noah shain on Jul 30, 2017 15:43:29 GMT -6
Just ordered a 1A and a pair of 2Ns. I'll report my findings here.
These mics are just too cool looking. Had to have em.
|
|
|
Post by stormymondays on Sept 9, 2017 13:46:07 GMT -6
Reviving this thread after I got my replacement Stager-2N. I used it on a mandolin tracking session and it rocks! I can already hear that all I need to do is to trim the extra fat to end up with an excellent mandolin tone. I haven't been able to use the pair on drums yet, hopefully sometime this month.
I also got the Crimson Mogaines, so I could plug them into a transformer input as mentioned above. They sound excellent through it, so I didn't bother to test them without it. I did test the Mogain with a Shure SM7, vs going directly into the preamp. Besides the clean gain (REALLY clean!) it does extract a noticeable extra touch of magic from the mic. Wonderful!
|
|
|
Post by noah shain on Sept 9, 2017 13:51:09 GMT -6
The 1A is a thing of beauty
|
|