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Post by stormymondays on Jul 19, 2017 8:32:15 GMT -6
My question for y'all is: do you find that EQ is an absolute requirement when using ribbon mics for anything other than an electric guitar? Now, the story: Due to the ongoing Coles thread, today I spent the morning at my studio retesting my ribbon mics: Royer R101, Avantone CR-14 and the Reslo "Beeb" modified by Xaudia ( xaudia.com/shop/the-beeb/ ). Lately the R101 wasn't winning any shootouts with acoustic instruments, to the point where I had almost begun to suspect that the mic had a problem. I recorded some acoustic guitar and vocals with the three mics. I plugged them into my DAV BG2 so I could use the same pre for all mics. My findings: I can't believe the little/cheap Reslo sounds almost like a condenser! Fantastic vibe and very natural sound. It does have a pinch of self-noise. In comparison, the R101 sounded like it could be a defective mic. Mid-heavy, no highs at all. However, open ANY eq plugin, add a top boost and BOOM! It starts to sound great. If I only had the Reslo to compare, I'd be worried! Fortunately, I had the Avantone, which sounded even darker than the R101, and it also opened up nicely with EQ. The Royer sounded firmer, and a bit more expensive... which it is! So how do you approach recording with ribbons, especially when shooting them out against other mics? Do you EQ on the way in? Do you simply take a leap of faith and assume that the sound that you need is going to be there come mix time? |
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Post by Ward on Jul 19, 2017 8:35:44 GMT -6
I don't like a Royer an any acoustic instruments except Dobro, Mandolin, Banjo, occasional fiddle, mando-cello / Bouzouki, viola and dulcimer.
And I only like EQ on things I'm recording.
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Post by adamjbrass on Jul 19, 2017 8:38:41 GMT -6
I do it case by case, but chances are good I decided before hand the source needed a mic like a ribbon. It sorta depends on the sound in the track too. Sometimes you want a muddy sound. I find it varies depending on the arrangement/performance and the stylistic approach of the artists. A lot of female singers like like my AEA44 as opposed to my UM25C, which are totally polar opposites. And I can tell you the last time I used my 44 on Overheads, I opened it up slightly, but I am super happy without any EQ on top most days. I favor a less pushed treble sound anyway. But when you boost certain area, it comes alive as well. Most ribbons to, I guess. But I don't fret over it mostly, I trust my ears to make the right moves with them on source. Another thing to try is to back them off the source. You will get better top end that way and obv. less boom. Ribbons are messy, but they are worth it.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 19, 2017 10:26:39 GMT -6
Of a bunch of ribbons i have, the Samar need little to none.
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Post by svart on Jul 19, 2017 11:49:45 GMT -6
I dislike any ribbons on anything acoustic. Acoustic instruments are all about nuance, which no ribbon is good at. Ribbons always soften the source too much.
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Post by drbill on Jul 19, 2017 12:26:10 GMT -6
Love Ribbons on acoustic sources - Esp. piano. But also, ukulele, mando, high strung gtrs, dulcimers, anything that comes across too "pointy" when dropped into the mix. EQ is always handy with a ribbon. HPF and some HF EQ are often used if the instrument needs to speak. When I'm cutting, I'll patch in a chop shop EQ and use a bit of the HPF (maybe 80Hz) along with the tilt (focus) and with one twist of the tilt I'll get 80% there - EQ wise. I leave any serious tweaking for mix time. My MJ modded 205 ribbon's are killer for my applications. HUGE sounding. And that works great on these smaller instruments with pointy transients - especially if they are featured instruments. But many ribbons get that "larger than life" sound.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 19, 2017 16:45:07 GMT -6
I dislike any ribbons on anything acoustic. Acoustic instruments are all about nuance, which no ribbon is good at. Ribbons always soften the source too much. This is not true with the Samar. Conversely, I find many condensers make a shrill shredded mess of many acoustic instruments like strummed steel string and many fiddles. |
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Post by svart on Jul 19, 2017 16:48:45 GMT -6
I dislike any ribbons on anything acoustic. Acoustic instruments are all about nuance, which no ribbon is good at. Ribbons always soften the source too much. This is not true with the Samar. Conversely, I find many condensers make a shrill shredded mess of many acoustic instruments like strummed steel string and many fiddles. I tried it with the Samar. Still didn't like it, but hey, that's life. |
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Post by EmRR on Jul 19, 2017 17:03:48 GMT -6
Fair enough, though I recall the one you tried was identified as damaged. I cut an entire record with nothing but the Samar, all acoustic instruments and vocals, outside of a few electric bass tracks. There are a fair number of classical remote guys using Samar pairs at distance which is a tough test for treble detail.
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Post by Ward on Jul 19, 2017 19:05:04 GMT -6
This is not true with the Samar. Conversely, I find many condensers make a shrill shredded mess of many acoustic instruments like strummed steel string and many fiddles. I tried it with the Samar. Still didn't like it, but hey, that's life. Even sewer robots are entitled to be wrong, occasionally. ;-) LOL |
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 19, 2017 21:59:25 GMT -6
I generally try to choose a mic and placement they will require at most minimal EQ.
If a track needs significant EQ something is probably wrong with the tracking.
As an aside, I don't own any Royers and tend to, er, look a bit askance at them. I really don't understand why I'd want a mic where the off-axis sound would require a different EQ curve than the on-axis sound. Seems to me that it's just asking for trouble. I understand that they're extremely popular, but still, that bothers me.
When I want a ribbon on electric guitar I generally reach for a Beyer M160.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 19, 2017 22:09:57 GMT -6
I generally try to choose a mic and placement they will require at most minimal EQ. If a track needs significant EQ something is probably wrong with the tracking. As an aside, I don't own any Royers and tend to, er, look a bit askance at them. I really don't understand why I'd want a mic where the off-axis sound would require a different EQ curve than the on-axis sound. Seems to me that it's just asking for trouble. I understand that they're extremely popular, but still, that bothers me. When I want a ribbon on electric guitar I generally reach for a Beyer M160. Yes yes, yes! This goes right to mic choice! |
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Post by Ward on Jul 20, 2017 4:39:39 GMT -6
in reference to the Royer R121 I understand that they're extremely popular, but still, that bothers me. When I want a ribbon on electric guitar I generally reach for a Beyer M160. It is popular because it is widely accepted as an industry standard. It is widely accepted as an industry standard because it works well and predictably at its purpose every single time. Just like these numbers and letters: 1176, LA2a, LA3a, CL1b, U87, U67, U47, SM57, M930, Red2, Red3, 1073, 312 etc etc Sure, not everyone likes all these numbers and letters and they don't all work for all applications, but you can't deny that they've been benchmarks and standards and always deliver results.
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Post by Ward on Jul 20, 2017 4:41:05 GMT -6
in reference to the Royer R121 I understand that they're extremely popular, but still, that bothers me. When I want a ribbon on electric guitar I generally reach for a Beyer M160. It is popular because it is widely accepted as an industry standard. It is widely accepted as an industry standard because it works well and predictably at its purpose every single time. Just like these numbers and letters: 1176, LA2a, LA3a, CL1b, U87, U67, U47, SM57, M930, Red2, Red3, 1073, 312 etc etc Sure, not everyone likes all these numbers and letters and they don't all work for all applications, but you can't deny that they've been benchmarks and standards and always deliver results.
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Post by adamjbrass on Jul 20, 2017 7:00:34 GMT -6
the Samar does have a very open, less "woolly", and very fast sound. At first, it makes you feel like it has the sensitivity of a condenser mic. but after a while, I could hear the wool in it. I agree its more open and less smeared than other ribbon mics though.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 20, 2017 7:32:54 GMT -6
Add me to one of the people who doesn't use my Royer 101 on acoustic guitar. I don't have a dulcimer or any real pointy high end instruments. I don't even use it on electric guitars anymore. The day I got it-due to the hype- I was waiting for that "oh my God" moment when combined with a sm57. It was a big letdown. I kept trying to like it - but like most tools that I use time and again and can't discern much usefulness - I stipped using it.
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Post by Ward on Jul 20, 2017 7:42:29 GMT -6
Add me to one of the people who doesn't use my Royer 101 on acoustic guitar. I don't have a dulcimer or any real pointy high end instruments. I don't even use it on electric guitars anymore. The day I got it-due to the hype- I was waiting for that "oh my God" moment when combined with a sm57. It was a big letdown. I kept trying to like it - but like most tools that I use time and again and can't discern much usefulness - I stipped using it. If it really is the same as the R121, which hasn't been my findings but anyhow, turn the danged thing around 180º, flip the phase on it and then bring it to -18dbFS and slowly bring in the SM57 with it. Both need to be DEAD ON axis to the mid point of the speaker cone. At a certain point, your ears will 'pop' and you'll have your "On my God" moment. |
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 20, 2017 11:30:09 GMT -6
in reference to the Royer R121 I understand that they're extremely popular, but still, that bothers me. When I want a ribbon on electric guitar I generally reach for a Beyer M160. It is popular because it is widely accepted as an industry standard. It is widely accepted as an industry standard because it works well and predictably at its purpose every single time. Just like these numbers and letters: 1176, LA2a, LA3a, CL1b, U87, U67, U47, SM57, M930, Red2, Red3, 1073, 312 etc etc Sure, not everyone likes all these numbers and letters and they don't all work for all applications, but you can't deny that they've been benchmarks and standards and always deliver results. I don't use SM57s much anymore, either. Usually use an M201 instead. I do own 4 57s and 3 56s though. Well, 3-1/2 56s to be exact. I also have one 545L, which I do like a lot as a harp mic. |
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Post by Guitar on Jul 23, 2017 9:27:40 GMT -6
I've had mixed luck with things like this, some amazing results, some unremarkable.
I put my modified MXLR40 over the drum kit in a spaced pair, and no amount of EQ could make it sound...not weird.
I put the same mics as a spaced pair in front of the kit, with a condenser XY on the overhead, and the blend is heavenly, with very little need for EQ.
I use my modified MXL R80 as well as Apex 205 on acoustic guitar and the sound is very natural and woody. Often, I do put a huge 6 dB high shelf starting at 1 or 2 kHz. Suprisingly, the results are natural and pleasant sounding.
Ribbons on guitar amps I was like, "Cool. Yeah, I get it."
Ribbon mics on acoustic sources was the point where I decided I am in love with ribbon mics.
I don't really see them a specialty choice any longer, just another good option in the kit. I've got 5 mics and I want more!!
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Post by svart on Jul 25, 2017 9:17:50 GMT -6
Add me to one of the people who doesn't use my Royer 101 on acoustic guitar. I don't have a dulcimer or any real pointy high end instruments. I don't even use it on electric guitars anymore. The day I got it-due to the hype- I was waiting for that "oh my God" moment when combined with a sm57. It was a big letdown. I kept trying to like it - but like most tools that I use time and again and can't discern much usefulness - I stipped using it. If it really is the same as the R121, which hasn't been my findings but anyhow, turn the danged thing around 180º, flip the phase on it and then bring it to -18dbFS and slowly bring in the SM57 with it. Both need to be DEAD ON axis to the mid point of the speaker cone. At a certain point, your ears will 'pop' and you'll have your "On my God" moment. R121 and R101 don't sound alike to me either. The R101 is much more mid-centric, but not in the good way the R121 is.. Almost tubby sounding. I've toyed with using opposite polarity as the EQ between a 57 and R121 and I've been torn between using them like this or matched polarity. I've started to shy away from using the 57 on the dust cap as I keep getting a pinched sounding peak around 2.5K that can't be EQ'd out very easily. I'm starting to dig the 57 about an inch out from the dust cap while the R121 is either centered on the cap, or at the junction of the cap and cone. |
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Post by notneeson on Jul 25, 2017 9:56:29 GMT -6
I've found the 101 useful on upright bass and cello, but not necessarily more so than a 121 would be. What I really like on electric guitar is the 122v— yowza!
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 27, 2017 7:15:44 GMT -6
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